Poll: Emma Watson's Speech on Gender Equality

BloatedGuppy

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SacremPyrobolum said:
This business with framing 4chan for threatening to leak Emma Watson nudes by this Rantic.com site only for them to ask the bloody President of the United States to shut down 4chan and censor the internet is some grade A Metal Gear Cold War bullshit. Seriously, what is with all the elaborate plots on the internet nowadays?
You mean the elaborate hoaxes?

I think P.T. Barnum covered all the bases on that front a long time ago.
 

Lightknight

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A couple interesting things is that, as a male, I feel like any time I talk to a child or woman that there always has to be someone else in the room. I feel like at any moment I can be falsely accused of anything and find myself whisked away by an angry mob to prison for something I did NOT do.

For example, I would love to be a foster parent and adopt children. But that concern is always at the back of my mind, that trying to help or be a good person can ultimately be turned to evil against me just because society sees the potential of a rapist or molester in every male.

I do not feel like women face that sort of thing at all. When I was a kid, the male role models in my life played an amazing role. Examples of good strong men who loved teaching children and never so much as laid a finger on me. I feel like I am unable to repay them their kindness by passing it along to the next generation because nowadays children can't even play alone in the streets like we used to because some bad guy is lurking around the corner in our minds. And they may really be there too, which makes the whole damn thing all the more pervasive.


BloatedGuppy said:
THREAD REQUEST: Keep the any debate civil. First mention of "SJW" earns 20 crotch punches.
I'll point out that in making this request, you are the first person to mention it. I'll expect a youtube video of you carrying out your sentence on my screen by midnight.

What she said has nothing to do with SJWs. SJWs aren't asking for equality, Emma's entire speech was acknowledging that there is a disparity and men are on the losing end of it too just like some women are. It was a wholesale request for equality in a way most people can support even if we disagree with more specific assumptions like the nature/nurture bit I mentioned above. You probably understand that, and that's likely why you made that preface for the thread. But if someone had breached the topic it would have served as an opportunity to see those of us with an ax to grind against the Sarkeesians of this world defend someone who is doing it right. That would have been something interesting to see.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Lightknight said:
I'll point out that in making this request, you are the first person to mention it. I'll expect a youtube video of you carrying out your sentence on my screen by midnight.
Fortunately, as the thread author, I am beyond reproach, and award myself twenty cookies instead. Which I will hand out to homeless folks on the way home, because I'm That Good a Guy, and also because I don't even really like cookies very much. I should have awarded myself tacos. =(
 

Lightknight

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BloatedGuppy said:
Lightknight said:
I'll point out that in making this request, you are the first person to mention it. I'll expect a youtube video of you carrying out your sentence on my screen by midnight.
Fortunately, as the thread author, I am beyond reproach, and award myself twenty cookies instead. Which I will hand out to homeless folks on the way home, because I'm That Good a Guy, and also because I don't even really like cookies very much. I should have awarded myself tacos. =(
Ah, very well then. Carry on.

I edited that post to add my thoughts on the topic at hand. You may be interested in what I said as it pertains to your poll.
 

Thaluikhain

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Lightknight said:
A couple interesting things is that, as a male, I feel like any time I talk to a child or woman that there always has to be someone else in the room. I feel like at any moment I can be falsely accused of anything and find myself whisked away by an angry mob to prison for something I did do.
Er, is the problem that you might be locked up, or feeling like you might be locked up?

The latter I could see as an issue, the former, not really.
 

Etherlad

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I couldn't really concentrate on the Speech, because i almost cracked a rip laughing when she mentioned and quoted Edmund Burke and nobody even flinched.
 

Lightknight

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thaluikhain said:
Lightknight said:
A couple interesting things is that, as a male, I feel like any time I talk to a child or woman that there always has to be someone else in the room. I feel like at any moment I can be falsely accused of anything and find myself whisked away by an angry mob to prison for something I didn't do.
Er, is the problem that you might be locked up, or feeling like you might be locked up?

The latter I could see as an issue, the former, not really.
Eh, I left out the word "NOT" there. Edited.

What I mean is that I know I am prejudiced against males too. If I were on a Jury and some kid accused a guy of molesting him I would have the default position of his guilt. Same with claims of rape. This is how we are socially programmed. Compare this with claims of theft or something else where I would carefully review the facts objectively and wait for proof of guilt to be presented.

It isn't just the fear of being falsely accused, it's the knowledge that that particular false accusal carries more weight than others and particularly against a man.
 

Naeras

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do you feel that traditional definitions and expectations of masculinity are confining for you?
No, not for me personally, but whenever someone mentions "tradition" and "gender" in the same sentence I tend to get temporary ebola-AIDS and die a little, because I consider "traditional gender (insert whatever here)" bullshit.

I also have friends who have issues with "traditional masculine expectations", including (but not limited to) a guy getting laughed out of the psychiatrist's office because his girlfriend was beating him.

The fact that people are actually talking about this now is, without question, a good thing.

Also, anyone who is raging specifically about the fact that a rich white woman held this speech can go fuck right off. If that sparks more awareness towards the fact that men also have gender issues, then who the holy hell-ass-balls cares who held that speech?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Lightknight said:
Ah, very well then. Carry on.

I edited that post to add my thoughts on the topic at hand. You may be interested in what I said as it pertains to your poll.
I read it. I've been reading all the responses. I'm just trying to avoid wading in too much because I always find it mildly distasteful when people are forever bumping their own threads.

RE: Your "rapist/molester" comment, my girlfriend's father...who is an artist...actually had the police called on him because he was in the park sketching, and there were kids playing nearby. So it's a problem I'm intimately familiar with. I always wince a bit when I see a woman I'm walking behind on the way home tense up, because I'm coming up behind her in the tunnel or something. I've always got dark sunglasses on (eye issue) and I'm sure I look borderline shady as a result. Makes me more sympathetic than angry though. There are two women in my life that have been raped, and I've seen first hand how much anxiety it causes them.

Also, you spoke the unholy term at least twice in that reply, which is grounds for swift and violent reprisal as per thread decorum.
 

Thaluikhain

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Lightknight said:
What I mean is that I know I am prejudiced against males too. If I were on a Jury and some kid accused a guy of molesting him I would have the default position of his guilt. Same with claims of rape. This is how we are socially programmed. Compare this with claims of theft or something else where I would carefully review the facts objectively and wait for proof of guilt to be presented.

It isn't just the fear of being falsely accused, it's the knowledge that that particular false accusal carries more weight than others and particularly against a man.
That's not at all true. The number of complaints that lead to a conviction are tiny, let alone false complaints where there is actual no evidence.

One big exception to this is when racism gets in the way, accuse a man of the right ethnicity and the odds go up a lot in many places. Social programming very much leans towards convictions in those cases, generally not otherwise.
 

BoredRolePlayer

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The phrase "Don't cry man up" comes to mind.

If you want an example of something that did affect me then I have one. I grew my hair out as a kid, had to pretty far for a braided afro. Now I would get picked one for having it and was told crap like "boys will be boys" when they yank on my hair. But when I deck them for pulling my hair over and over, I get in trouble. I hated how no one stood up for me (i. e. teachers and staff), so when I defended myself I was the one who had to take anger management lessons at age nine. Long story short two years later I chopped off my hair, I grew sick of kids pulling my hair like I'm a horse to be whipped. Highschool had it's own form of bullshit though, but that was a culture thing.
 

KRosen

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BoredRolePlayer said:
The phrase "Don't cry man up" comes to mind.

If you want an example of something that did affect me then I have one. I grew my hair out as a kid, had to pretty far for a braided afro. Now I would get picked one for having it and was told crap like "boys will be boys" when they yank on my hair. But when I deck them for pulling my hair over and over, I get in trouble. I hated how no one stood up for me (i. e. teachers and staff), so when I defended myself I was the one who had to take anger management lessons at age nine. Long story short two years later I chopped off my hair, I grew sick of kids pulling my hair like I'm a horse to be whipped. Highschool had it's own form of bullshit though, but that was a culture thing.
/hug to you and everyone eles in this thread revealing pain from their past and present

As for emma watson, I don't care about her message until she gives her position on #KillAllMen and #Misandry. that is as far as my thoughts go for her.
 

Lightknight

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BloatedGuppy said:
Lightknight said:
Ah, very well then. Carry on.

I edited that post to add my thoughts on the topic at hand. You may be interested in what I said as it pertains to your poll.
I read it. I've been reading all the responses. I'm just trying to avoid wading in too much because I always find it mildly distasteful when people are forever bumping their own threads.

RE: Your "rapist/molester" comment, my girlfriend's father...who is an artist...actually had the police called on him because he was in the park sketching, and there were kids playing nearby. So it's a problem I'm intimately familiar with. I always wince a bit when I see a woman I'm walking behind on the way home tense up, because I'm coming up behind her in the tunnel or something. I've always got dark sunglasses on (eye issue) and I'm sure I look borderline shady as a result. Makes me more sympathetic than angry though. There are two women in my life that have been raped, and I've seen first hand how much anxiety it causes them.
It doesn't make me angry either. But it does make me feel stereotyped. I understand why they're doing it but it doesn't make me somehow guilty.

As a kid I always thought there would be a day when I would be a MAN, you know? Like I'd sit down for breakfast with coffee and do my bills and think adult thoughts (not like mature thoughts, just things grown ups think about). But somehow I still think like a kid even though I see the grey in my hair in the mirror. Sure, I do the bills and drink the coffee, but I just haven't transitioned into thinking like a big gruff tough man. The thought that I could assault the person in front of me doesn't even cross my mind and when I see them tense I look behind me too before realizing that it's because of me. The youtube clip below was the first time I'd heard a comedian discussing the matter, albeit in an exaggerated joke.



I get that as a man I am stronger than a lot of people and could do harm. But I don't think I deserve to be "tensed" at any more than a person deserves to be "tensed" at by me for them being black. It really is every bit as sexist as the other is racist. I get erring on the side of precaution and I want women to be safe. So it's conflicting to want to be judged as an individual and knowing full well that there are criminals out there.

Also, you spoke the unholy term at least twice in that reply, which is grounds for swift and violent reprisal as per thread decorum.
You only set rules against the first person to bring it up. "First mention of..." . I looked and there were already two separate posters to do so and one may have legitimately triggered the intention for that rule but I can't be sure as their post was also TLDR. So by your own rules I'm in the clear :p, Loopholes FTW!
 

BloatedGuppy

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Lightknight said:
But somehow I still think like a kid even though I see the grey in my hair in the mirror.
God I hear that. I have maybe a few more years before the salt overwhelms the pepper, and I'm still waiting for the magical transition into self-assured adulthood. The thought that the adults I trusted to keep everything together when I was a kid were just making shit up as they went along the way I am is kind of jarring.

Lightknight said:
I get that as a man I am stronger than a lot of people and could do harm. But I don't think I deserve to be "tensed" at any more than a person deserves to be "tensed" at by me for them being black. It really is every bit as sexist as the other is racist.
I hear that, and you're not wrong, but it's coming from a different place than "Women belong in the kitchen" or "Don't hire a Mexican, they're lazy" or "What's a black man doing in a car that nice?". Hell, even *I* get scared of guys when I'm out walking at night. If there's some guy behind me I tense up just in case I'm about to get mugged. If I was 5'6 and weighed 120 lbs soaking wet that tension could easily translate into terror, especially if I'd been assaulted in the past.

Doesn't excuse prejudice, but I can understand how things come to be that way.

Lightknight said:
I looked and there were already two separate posters to do so and one may have legitimately triggered the intention for that rule but I can't be sure as their post was also TLDR. So by your own rules I'm in the clear :p, Loopholes FTW!
Those posters will be dealt with once my army of robots is complete.
 

Lightknight

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thaluikhain said:
Lightknight said:
What I mean is that I know I am prejudiced against males too. If I were on a Jury and some kid accused a guy of molesting him I would have the default position of his guilt. Same with claims of rape. This is how we are socially programmed. Compare this with claims of theft or something else where I would carefully review the facts objectively and wait for proof of guilt to be presented.

It isn't just the fear of being falsely accused, it's the knowledge that that particular false accusal carries more weight than others and particularly against a man.
That's not at all true. The number of complaints that lead to a conviction are tiny, let alone false complaints where there is actual no evidence.

One big exception to this is when racism gets in the way, accuse a man of the right ethnicity and the odds go up a lot in many places. Social programming very much leans towards convictions in those cases, generally not otherwise.
I would appreciate you citing data when you make a claim.

Some interesting data: Somewhere between 2.5% and 5% of the people in prison are innocent. [http://www.forbes.com/sites/kellyphillipserb/2012/05/01/the-price-of-freedom-what-happens-to-the-wrongfully-convicted/] So 1 in every 200 or 1 in every 400. To put that in total terms, in 2006 there were 7.5 million people in prison. If we use the low end estimate of 2.5% that would be 187,500 people in prison for a crime they did not commit.

False accusations of rape specifically are believed to run between 2% to 8%. David Lisak's 2010 study that was published in a magazine dedicated to violence against women put the number at 5.9% when they only counted cases where actual evidence turned up to show that the claim was false. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Lisak_.282010.29] So it isn't counting other people for whom there was no evidence to exonerate but were innocent. So that 8% may not be that unlikely but study results can vary wildly by who is doing the study and what criteria they use to define a false accusation. That's why I used the study put out by Violence Against Women since I assume they wouldn't want to print particularly high numbers unless they were true.

In any event, getting convicted isn't the only way to be damaged by this thing. Getting accused can often have significant impacts on the individual in society. From loss of job, time in jail awaiting trial (and money lost to bail if any is set), separation from family, to any number of other ramifications. So conviction isn't even the only concern by a long shot.

So yeah, this is something to be afraid of. A person you've done absolutely nothing has potential power over your life and livelihood for no other reason than you are man and they are a female. This is a very real fear men have that women don't have to deal with and I seriously doubt anyone is going to care that we have to deal with that.

It does not help that my wife and I know an actual false accuser. Someone that my wife actually was witness to the act not being committed when the person claimed it did. The person walked up to my wife and said that the guy just raped her when they (unbeknownst to this individual) hadn't even left her eyesight the whole time she was gone. The guy had merely broken up with her, no contact was made...

On the good side, rape accusations of actual incidents appear to be on the rise (women appear to be becoming more likely to report sexual assault than they were ten years ago thanks to education on the need to report regardless of taboos) while overall incidents of sexual assault have dropped fairly drastically over the past decade and beyond. So fewer incidents with more reporting. Good on both counts.
 

Lightknight

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BloatedGuppy said:
Lightknight said:
But somehow I still think like a kid even though I see the grey in my hair in the mirror.
God I hear that. I have maybe a few more years before the salt overwhelms the pepper, and I'm still waiting for the magical transition into self-assured adulthood. The thought that the adults I trusted to keep everything together when I was a kid were just making shit up as they went along the way I am is kind of jarring.
It really is surprising. The more I talk about this the more I find out that others around me have similar thoughts. But what about the people that really do commit these crimes? Are they "grown up" internally or are they every bit the same sort of kid we are inside but making malicious decisions?

Lightknight said:
I get that as a man I am stronger than a lot of people and could do harm. But I don't think I deserve to be "tensed" at any more than a person deserves to be "tensed" at by me for them being black. It really is every bit as sexist as the other is racist.
I hear that, and you're not wrong, but it's coming from a different place than "Women belong in the kitchen" or "Don't hire a Mexican, they're lazy" or "What's a black man doing in a car that nice?". Hell, even *I* get scared of guys when I'm out walking at night. If there's some guy behind me I tense up just in case I'm about to get mugged. If I was 5'6 and weighed 120 lbs soaking wet that tension could easily translate into terror, especially if I'd been assaulted in the past.

Doesn't excuse prejudice, but I can understand how things come to be that way.
Sure, and heck, men also get raped something like 9% of the time someone is. Like I said, I get why this kind of stereotyping happens. I'm just pointing out that this is something that men have to deal with that likely can never be equal.

But this actually does extend to the same sort of thing. Ever seen who gets hired as babysitters? "Has wiener" might as well be admitting to having been convicted. This bias is something I'm totally guilty of too. So I can't rightfully blame people as I do trust women with children more than I trust men. Numbers and statistics indicate that I should. But it's still stereotyping of course.

Just something I'm conflicted over, you know?

I don't like being stereotyped as violent or greedy or dumb. I don't like it being assumed that I'm incompetent as a father or anything else. I don't like it when women are either.

Lightknight said:
I looked and there were already two separate posters to do so and one may have legitimately triggered the intention for that rule but I can't be sure as their post was also TLDR. So by your own rules I'm in the clear :p, Loopholes FTW!
Those posters will be dealt with once my army of robots is complete.
Yes, let the crotch punching robot force manufacturing commence....
 

BloatedGuppy

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Lightknight said:
It really is surprising. The more I talk about this the more I find out that others around me have similar thoughts. But what about the people that really do commit these crimes? Are they "grown up" internally or are they every bit the same sort of kid we are inside but making malicious decisions?
I imagine as with all things it's multi-factoral. My girlfriend has always been into true crime novels and criminal profiling, and I know there are people out there with what basically amounts to an "empathy disorder". And not in the "Hey, I self-diagnosed myself with Aspergers because I'm an introvert and don't like people" but as in they're functionally incapable of feeling empathy. Those are your sociopaths.

Of course most rape isn't the vaunted "stranger rape" where shadowy men grapple women in dark alleys, it's people you know and trust using social leverage or manipulation or force to get what they want. I imagine those are also due to a variety of reasons, including the rather pernicious notion that "persistence" and "not taking no for an answer" are romantic.

Lightknight said:
I don't like being stereotyped as violent or greedy or dumb. I don't like it being assumed that I'm incompetent as a father or anything else. I don't like it when women are either.
I can honestly say I've never felt stereotyped as any of those things. Either I don't present as violent or greedy or dumb, or I don't travel in circles where those presumptions are leapt to. I have run into the "be a man" bullshit, though, which to her credit I called her on and she later apologized for.


And I've had many relationships end because of my failure to manifest sufficient career ambition or the kind of "take charge attitude" that apparently caused their panties to fly off mid-stride. I've always been more of a caretaker. I would've made someone a good wife hurr hurr hurr.

Lightknight said:
Yes, let the crotch punching robot force manufacturing commence....
Come on man they do more than that. This one has a tray you can put drinks on, and it kind of wheels them around.
 

Frission

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I watched the speech. It was very nice as a whole, although did something happen for this thread to last five pages?

Anyway, efforts to reduce prejudice are always worthy of praise.

P.S: If you have any of the crotch punching robots for sale, I'll be willing to buy some. You never know when you could need one.