Poll: Guns, are they good or bad?

DP155ToneZone

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Aug 23, 2009
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Guns arent neutral. People say they are a tool. Yes that is correct, they are a tool; for killing. Guns were made to kill things, you simply cannot use them in a morally "Good" way. They are not tools, neither are they neutral. They are weapons of aggression. The defence idea is illogical: if someone is trying to kill you then kill them back first. Thats petty kindergarten rubbish.

Answer me this,

Purely hypothetically (cos its an impractical idea), if you could destroy every single firearm, explosive and biological weapon on the planet in one swoop, would you?
 

Semitendon

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Aug 4, 2009
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Okay, so let me break down the reasons and "logic" on both sides, according to the posters already in this thread.

AGAINST GUNS:
1. Crime goes down, in theory.
2. There is no real reason to own a gun, other than hunting, and who cares about hunters.
3. Suicide by gun.
4. Idiot's with guns
EDIT: (as a favor to anti-gun people, I am not going to put in the whole " self-preservation is illogical" bit, that a user posted in the post directly before this one. you're welcome.)

FOR GUNS:
1. Crime levels would not change, in theory
2. It's a nationally protected right.
3. Suicidal people would find other ways
4. Responsible people with guns are not a danger.
5. Hunters for recreation


Let me say, I don't own a gun. I will at some point, probably buy one. Economic times are tough in America, and when times are tough, the stupid get desperate and resort to crime. And NO, the police aren't going to make it in time, in most cases.

It's important to remember that criminals in America, are distinctly different from criminals in other countries. Aside from the psycological and social aspects, which are considerable, the main thing to remember is geography. Unlike in Europe, where guns are largely banned, making neighboring countries difficult to find guns in, America doesn't have this luxury. The South American countries are some of the world's largest suppliers of illegal goods. Guns and drugs are significant exports for people in some South American countries. So, guns will continue to be provided in great supply to America, mainly due to it's close proximity, the psycological aspects of it's criminals, and it's relative wealth in comparison to other nearby countries. The sad reality is that guns are going to be staying in America, regardless of laws forbidding them.

The arguement that guns are bad because. . . well. . . . um. . there is no real reason. Crime levels changing is just a theory for either side, and both sides can site examples for their view point, but the truth is, no one really knows what would happen. The argument that most people will never need to protect themselves against an attacker, is true. But then, guns are like insurance, hopefully and probably, you won't need it, but you sure as hell don't want to be caught without it, if the worst happens. The removal of guns doesn't change suicide, people who are commited to dying, WILL find a way.

And finally, when it comes to the idiots and the irresponsible, the argument ends up going no where. Because, as pointed out already, guns are a tool. There are idiotic people who drive cars, fly planes, deliver mail, and work in hospitals. And each one of those things, ( and countless others) have been used to kill people either intentionally or by accident. So, in the end, the idiots out there, will still find a way to kill people.

"Guns are scary". I agree, and they should be taken with the utmost seriousness, but please, PLEASE, stop using that as your reason why they should be banned. Because, when you cut through the rest of your argument, that's all you've really said.
 

aperpheldy

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Mar 21, 2009
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Berethond said:
Also, guns are not inherently "good" or "bad".
They are a tool.

They can no more be "bad" than a screwdriver can be.
While I understand what you are trying to say, I still don't think it makes sense. A screwdrivers purpose is to be used in construction, while a gun is used to shoot things. That is it's purpose. It is a tool for causing direct harm to another. Why do we need something like this?
 

dsau

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Apr 15, 2009
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guns are good. keep guns, buy better guns and increase your local militia
 

SamLowry

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Aug 27, 2008
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Seriously, you are hanging on to a law, made around 1776, right after a Civil War against the militia of the UK.

Fast-forwarding to the NOW:
You gun-owning hillbillies will never be able to pull organized resistance like that off anytime soon - you are missing Prussian ex-militaries. Once the government has fallen, you are back to anarchy and good ol' "each man for himself!"

So, in a way, I would describe gun owners in the year 2009 as anarchists.


Also:
Very often on this thread I heard that guns are just tools and therefore neither morally bad or good until used by a human (who is capable of moral decisions). Well, you are leaving out one very important consideration on purpose: Each tool has a primary use it was built for. Yes, I could kill you with a chair if I try hard enough - or I could kill you with an assault rifle. Guess which one would be easier? And why? Because the primary purpose of a chair is sitting, while the primary (and only) use for an assault rifle is killing or at least seriously wounding other humans! How is killing someone any good?

Here you rednecks say that violence solves problems. It doesn't. It just sets off a chain reaction of creating more and more violence in the very process.

That's why self-justice is forbidden. Gun-owning redneck anarchists are just too keen on getting self-justice back into their preferred United States of Anarchy.

Last question:
Which nation - in their right mind - would want to invade your mess of a country, anyways?
I mean, it's all nice landscape-wise, but the people? Meh. I would suggest using neutron bombs or a virus that only kills non-Asians.. as it could be funny to watch how the dying hold on to their beloved 9mm with that fanatical gun-owner-glance in their eyes in the hope of protecting them till their very last breath :)
 

Ghost8585

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Jul 21, 2009
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Lots of gun threads on the escapist, I noticed, lol. So anyways, while not having a gun myself. I am a strong believer in the right to own a gun. Which is funny since the time I bother to vote I vote democrat. Go fig. Background checks and cool off periods are very welcome to me, but I never want to see an outright ban of guns in America. The NRA's anger towards these measures is what keeps me from joining them.

Only 2 societies today have very low gun related crimes; those where nobody has guns (nationwide ban), and those where everyone has guns. But keep in mind, in a society with a nationwide ban, criminals will always get their hands on a gun and use them on the unarmed populace since you can get anything if you have enough money and the right connections. Besides, in the unlikely event of Martial Law in my country, I don't want to be caught like a dear in headlight.

And on a final note to anyone who wants to ban guns, have you ever fired on? Skeet shooting, target practice, anything? They're quite fun. Even though I'm a city guy now I miss shooting clay pigeons with my mom when I lived in the backwoods.
 

Guitarmasterx7

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Mar 16, 2009
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the main problem with banning them is that people that intend to use them to break the law won't have any issues with having them smuggled because they do that anyways.
 

sneakypenguin

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DP155ToneZone said:
Guns arent neutral. People say they are a tool. Yes that is correct, they are a tool; for killing. Guns were made to kill things, you simply cannot use them in a morally "Good" way. They are not tools, neither are they neutral. They are weapons of aggression. The defence idea is illogical: if someone is trying to kill you then kill them back first. Thats petty kindergarten rubbish.

Answer me this,

Purely hypothetically (cos its an impractical idea), if you could destroy every single firearm, explosive and biological weapon on the planet in one swoop, would you?
No cause I love target shooting, and clay pigeons. Not to mention the upperhand in the rare event of violence against my person.

You can use guns in a morally good way id say. Shooting paper targets from 300 meters is morally good. Shooting the guy whos raping your sister would be morallly good....

And regarding the "kindergarten rubbish" thing. If someone is trying to kill you, how is that rubbish to defend yourself? Is it somehow morally superior to just take it?
 

Boredom is my vice

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Aug 15, 2009
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Sorry I'm the victim of a few home invasions and I feel much better now that I have a weapon. A weapon is'nt the problem its the people who get their hands on them, leagal or illeagal. Criminals are still going to get their hands on them if we for some reason made them illeagal, I would rather have a fair playing field.
 

Kwaren

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Jul 10, 2009
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I use my 2nd amendment rights. Wyoming has open carry laws which means I can carry a registered gun in open view and not get in trouble. The only places I cant take it are in federal areas like schools and government buildings.
 

Semitendon

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Aug 4, 2009
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DP155ToneZone said:
Guns arent neutral. People say they are a tool. Yes that is correct, they are a tool; for killing. Guns were made to kill things, you simply cannot use them in a morally "Good" way. They are not tools, neither are they neutral. They are weapons of aggression. The defence idea is illogical: if someone is trying to kill you then kill them back first. Thats petty kindergarten rubbish.

Answer me this,

Purely hypothetically (cos its an impractical idea), if you could destroy every single firearm, explosive and biological weapon on the planet in one swoop, would you?


So your entire argument is based on the idea that it is wrong to try to protect yourself? I don't get it. Self preservation is the most logical thing in existence. If the choice is my death, or the death of the aggressor, um, yeah, I am going to want to live, and if he gives me no other choice, I will kill him, so that I can live. Seriously?? That is by far, the worst reason that anyone, ever, has thought of, in an argument against guns.

As for your hypothetical situation, at least you admit that this idea is seriously flawed. Though, I wonder if you think that for the right reason. You're thinking, it's impractical because it would never happen. True, but it's also impractical because, even if you could remove those things, people would resort back to the days of old, when the bow, arrow, and sword where the weapon of choice. If you got rid of those, people would use sticks and rocks. Get rid of those, and you're left with bare hands. Newsflash: Violent people will be on this planet until it is destroyed.
 

LongAndShort

I'm pretty good. Yourself?
May 11, 2009
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I think it was in 2006, a child died every two days in a gun related accident. no, I don't think you should ban them, just regulate the fuck out of them.
 

DP155ToneZone

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Aug 23, 2009
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sneakypenguin said:
DP155ToneZone said:
Guns arent neutral. People say they are a tool. Yes that is correct, they are a tool; for killing. Guns were made to kill things, you simply cannot use them in a morally "Good" way. They are not tools, neither are they neutral. They are weapons of aggression. The defence idea is illogical: if someone is trying to kill you then kill them back first. Thats petty kindergarten rubbish.

Answer me this,

Purely hypothetically (cos its an impractical idea), if you could destroy every single firearm, explosive and biological weapon on the planet in one swoop, would you?
No cause I love target shooting, and clay pigeons. Not to mention the upperhand in the rare event of violence against my person.

You can use guns in a morally good way id say. Shooting paper targets from 300 meters is morally good. Shooting the guy whos raping your sister would be morallly good....

And regarding the "kindergarten rubbish" thing. If someone is trying to kill you, how is that rubbish to defend yourself? Is it somehow morally superior to just take it?
No, but killing for killing's sake isn't either. I was refering to the childish notion that violence must always be met with violence, which is perpetuated by the continued legalisation of firearms.
 

Boredom is my vice

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Aug 15, 2009
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sneakypenguin said:
DP155ToneZone said:
Guns arent neutral. People say they are a tool. Yes that is correct, they are a tool; for killing. Guns were made to kill things, you simply cannot use them in a morally "Good" way. They are not tools, neither are they neutral. They are weapons of aggression. The defence idea is illogical: if someone is trying to kill you then kill them back first. Thats petty kindergarten rubbish.

Answer me this,

Purely hypothetically (cos its an impractical idea), if you could destroy every single firearm, explosive and biological weapon on the planet in one swoop, would you?
No cause I love target shooting, and clay pigeons. Not to mention the upperhand in the rare event of violence against my person.

You can use guns in a morally good way id say. Shooting paper targets from 300 meters is morally good. Shooting the guy whos raping your sister would be morallly good....

And regarding the "kindergarten rubbish" thing. If someone is trying to kill you, how is that rubbish to defend yourself? Is it somehow morally superior to just take it?
Sorry I also think that using a weapon to PROTECT people is morally good, and not as you say "petty kindergarten rubbish."
 

WickedSkin

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Feb 15, 2008
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Guns are good as long as you are willing to use them against your own government if they cock things up to much.

Let's say your government send your children, fathers and sisters to a foreign country for a war based on lies. The government then get your sister and 100 civilians killed. About now you realize they cocked up. Then you hear your government killed 5000 sisters and brothers and 50 000 innocent civilians.

Now you should gather an angry mob and make sure the government knows they fucked up badly. Make sure the government steps down and let's someone else clean up the mess they've created.
 

SamLowry

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Aug 27, 2008
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isnt that like asking "cars, are they good or bad" ?
Nope, it isn't, hillbilly.

Guns are good as long as you are willing to use them against your own government if they cock things up to much.

Let's say your government send your children, fathers and sisters to a foreign country for a war based on lies.
Hey, wait a second! A war based on lies? I didn't notice you had a revolution lately...

Make sure the government steps down
In more civilized countries we call that "voting".
In a country with a fucked up political system that only knows to parties which are basically the same lobbyist extensions, anarchy is always the third option.
 

maat

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Aug 6, 2009
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i dont live in america but i do shoot for sport (target shooting before any animal rights activists have a go at me), and out lawing guns would do no good, lawful shooters like me would be deprived of our enjoyment and those who do kill people would hardly purchase guns lawfully anyway, they get them on the black market and would continue to do so if guns were totally outlawed