Poll: How many straight birth-gendered females are on the Escapist?

ThatOtherGirl

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UnloadedDevice said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Well there in lies a problem, because "normal" is also a term used to exclude trans folk, as well as trans is used as a term to exclude trans folk. The vast majority of trans people want to be respected as the gender we identify as, without having to add the "trans" part. Really the venomous way people have said trans when referring to me as a trans woman almost makes trans sound like a slur, but I still use trans and transgender. Also cis means near-side, trans means opposite-sise, if that helps.
I thought about typing out my full thoughts in response here, but uuuhhgg, it would have to be an essay to get my points across without stepping on too many toes, and I saw the last thread on the semantics of cisgender and I really don't want to be at the center of that.

It'll have to suffice that I don't like cisgender for many reasons, and if the transgender community came up with a term they like better than trans I wouldn't have a problem using it.
I just want to say, nothing wrong with not wanting to be called a word that you don't like. I didn't mean to start anything like that, sorry. I just wanted to drop a tiny bit of education as nice as possible!
 

Dimitriov

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May 24, 2010
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ThatOtherGirl said:
UnloadedDevice said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
Well there in lies a problem, because "normal" is also a term used to exclude trans folk, as well as trans is used as a term to exclude trans folk. The vast majority of trans people want to be respected as the gender we identify as, without having to add the "trans" part. Really the venomous way people have said trans when referring to me as a trans woman almost makes trans sound like a slur, but I still use trans and transgender. Also cis means near-side, trans means opposite-sise, if that helps.
I thought about typing out my full thoughts in response here, but uuuhhgg, it would have to be an essay to get my points across without stepping on too many toes, and I saw the last thread on the semantics of cisgender and I really don't want to be at the center of that.

It'll have to suffice that I don't like cisgender for many reasons, and if the transgender community came up with a term they like better than trans I wouldn't have a problem using it.
I just want to say, nothing wrong with not wanting to be called a word that you don't like. I didn't mean to start anything like that, sorry. I just wanted to drop a tiny bit of education as nice as possible!
Since it's been brought up: As as a man who was born male, I REALLY hate the term cisgender also. It is just a really ugly sounding word.

I completely understand why the word exists, and have no problem with that. But the word itself is shitty and I will never consent to being labelled that.
 

UnloadedDevice

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Apr 11, 2013
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Something Amyss said:
IceForce said:
If you expect a form poll to be scientifically accurate, then you're going to be disappointed. There's no way of stopping people from making 'incorrect' votes in your poll and skewing the results.
Also, I can't imagine why trans people might not want to participate in this poll.
Why wouldn't they? The polls are anonymous. I'm not sure why trans people would want to skew the numbers against their own favour.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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UnloadedDevice said:
I thought about typing out my full thoughts in response here, but uuuhhgg, it would have to be an essay to get my points across without stepping on too many toes, and I saw the last thread on the semantics of cisgender and I really don't want to be at the center of that.

It'll have to suffice that I don't like cisgender for many reasons, and if the transgender community came up with a term they like better than trans I wouldn't have a problem using it.

Dimitriov said:
Since it's been brought up: As as a man who was born male, I REALLY hate the term cisgender also. It is just a really ugly sounding word.

I completely understand why the word exists, and have no problem with that. But the word itself is shitty and I will never consent to being labelled that.
While I understand positions like this, it also really irritates me, because it feels like the trans community is being further excluded and pushed to the margins of society. Basically the reason is that without the term "cisgender", then we don't have a valid label for people whose gender identities match their birth sex. Well a term other than "normal", which is a meaningless term because no one is "normal", but also because being something other than "normal" is almost universally used insinuate something wrong with those who are not "normal"... It's really frustrating that people take offense with an otherwise harmless term, especially when we(trans folk) get excluded so hard and so often in society. Though it doesn't help that certain elements of the community have used the word badly, while those outside the community took horrific offense at the usages... Most of which were just expressions of frustration and exasperation.

So while the whole controversy irritates me, I understand it perfectly, because on the trans side we get a lot of negative effects with a different word attached. Though because of it we either need a better term, or people to get over it. Granted there was similar issues with both straight and heterosexual as terms too so... I dunno. Sorry for the rant, which wasn't aimed at either of you two personally, just as a general sentiment of exasperation with the protests against the term.

UnloadedDevice said:
if the transgender community came up with a term they like better than trans I wouldn't have a problem using it.
That probably won't happen, especially because we have a lot of other terms, like gender variant, non-binary, and gender minority, which don't gain much traction either. Heck we're still battling with people in our own community who insist on using the outdated and commonly considered incorrect term "transsexual". Although after seeing a list of words with trans in it, in this thread no less, it reminds me why I actually like the terms "trans" and "transgender". I just kinda get sick of feeling like I'm on the outside looking in.

UnloadedDevice said:
KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
On a side note, I know a lot of cisgender straight female gamers who pose as male on line and refuse to reveal their true gender and orientation. Mostly because when they do reveal even their actual gender, they get hounded and harassed to the point where they can't enjoy the game.
It's a good thing that the polls are anonymous then, people can vote truthfully without fear of harassment!
Well even when it's anonymous, my AFAB[footnote]Assigned Female At Birth[/footnote] female identified game friends still wouldn't participate, or they'd lie. Just because of a potential they could get sniffed out. Paranoid? Yes. Then again two have had creeps track their XBL accounts back and harass them on Facebook... So. Yeah.
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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UnloadedDevice said:
Something Amyss said:
IceForce said:
If you expect a form poll to be scientifically accurate, then you're going to be disappointed. There's no way of stopping people from making 'incorrect' votes in your poll and skewing the results.
Also, I can't imagine why trans people might not want to participate in this poll.
Why wouldn't they? The polls are anonymous. I'm not sure why trans people would want to skew the numbers against their own favour.
Quite a few reasons actually. A lot of trans folk are stealth, meaning they seek to integrate into society at every level as the gender they identify as, which means never admitting being trans. There are also a lot in the closet who aren't ready to come out anonymously, assuming they even accept themselves yet. Then there are ones who want to avoid conflict so they only share their trans status with people they know intimately. After that there are those with enough bad experiences that they take all possible precautions not to be outed. Finally there are trans folk who have a firm conviction that gender identity is the foundation of gender, thus don't identify as trans, identifying exclusively as the gender they identify with.
 

ThatOtherGirl

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UnloadedDevice said:
Something Amyss said:
IceForce said:
If you expect a form poll to be scientifically accurate, then you're going to be disappointed. There's no way of stopping people from making 'incorrect' votes in your poll and skewing the results.
Also, I can't imagine why trans people might not want to participate in this poll.
Why wouldn't they? The polls are anonymous. I'm not sure why trans people would want to skew the numbers against their own favour.
People often conflate sexual orientation with being trans. In particular there is a history of stereotyping trans people, especially trans women, as gay people who take it to far. To put it plainly, there are tons of people out there who insist I am a gay man so obsessed with having a dick in me that I would mutilate myself to make that happen, despite the fact that I am a lesbian. And it has had some seriously negative effects. For example, depending on your doctor, if you don't fit the stereotype of what a trans person is expected to be you will sometimes get denied prescriptions to HRT drugs or doctors wont sign of on SRS. In some places it is known that when they ask you if you are attracted to your birth sex, and they will, pretend that you are because if you say no they might use that to deny you treatment.

So when your poll gives sexuality options for everyone else but not us it kind of rubs us wrong. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it, but it is another reminder of stereotypes and attacks made against us and in particular the humiliation we sometimes have to deal with of jumping through hoops and being forced to act like a stereotype of ourselves so we can be "trans enough" for some ignorant doctor out there.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime said:
I would also add to that list trans people who are not in a position to transition (and especially if they think they might never be) and they just do not want to think about it. It can hurt a lot to simply say "this is what I am" when you don't think you will ever be able to transition.

Then there is the whole normal vs trans thing I mentioned earlier, and between all of that I can easily see a person saying "You know what, I don't care."
 

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime

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Jan 12, 2010
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Risingblade said:
I'm starting to think your guys are just making up terms to confuse people...
Who are "your guys" and who's supposed to be "just making up terms" to confuse people?
 

verdant monkai

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Straight birth gendered female sounds like a science fiction term. Revenge of the straight birth gendered females.

Its interesting to see what escapist users identify as though.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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UnloadedDevice said:
I really hate the term cis, it sounds like cyst.
The planet Uranus sounds like "your anus", but I'm not gonna call it something else because the name sounds too icky. Yeah I know it can be pronounced "yoor-ahn-us" to avoid the dirty jokes but you get what I mean.

I don't want to be labeled with such a bizarre term that makes it sound like I have a medical condition for simply being a part of the vast majority.
Uhh... heterosexuals are the vast majority, doesn't mean we get to call them "normal" all of a sudden.

Do you have a problem with people outside the military or police being called "civilians" instead of "normal people"?
 

UnloadedDevice

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Apr 11, 2013
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ThatOtherGirl said:
UnloadedDevice said:
Something Amyss said:
Also, I can't imagine why trans people might not want to participate in this poll.
Why wouldn't they? The polls are anonymous. I'm not sure why trans people would want to skew the numbers against their own favour.
People often conflate sexual orientation with being trans. In particular there is a history of stereotyping trans people, especially trans women, as gay people who take it to far. To put it plainly, there are tons of people out there who insist I am a gay man so obsessed with having a dick in me that I would mutilate myself to make that happen, despite the fact that I am a lesbian. And it has had some seriously negative effects. For example, depending on your doctor, if you don't fit the stereotype of what a trans person is expected to be you will sometimes get denied prescriptions to HRT drugs or doctors wont sign of on SRS. In some places it is known that when they ask you if you are attracted to your birth sex, and they will, pretend that you are because if you say no they might use that to deny you treatment.

So when your poll gives sexuality options for everyone else but not us it kind of rubs us wrong. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it, but it is another reminder of stereotypes and attacks made against us and in particular the humiliation we sometimes have to deal with of jumping through hoops and being forced to act like a stereotype of ourselves so we can be "trans enough" for some ignorant doctor out there.
I'd hardly call it giving sexuality options for "everyone else." Bisexual options are not present, nor are pansexual or whatever else. The only options are straight or not straight, corresponding to the question I'm trying to answer. Likewise the only options are trans or not trans, because I'm not asking if there are any gay transgendered men on the Escapist. A third of the poll options are about trans individuals, it would be kind of crummy to snub the poll just because it isn't all about them (Obviously though, not all trans individuals have done that, if any). I suppose I might have been able to squeeze in a couple sexuality options, but I honestly have no idea what the vernacular would be without getting too specific and needing more options, so I figured it'd be better to leave it out. I can only imagine the kind of heck I'd be getting if I had put it in and gotten it wrong. I thought I was being pretty inclusive as it was by adding the oft-overlooked transgendered man option.

KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime's list I'm not gonna bother quoting, because those reasons are reasonable I suppose, if a few are a bit silly on an anonymous poll.
 

UnloadedDevice

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Apr 11, 2013
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Dizchu said:
UnloadedDevice said:
I really hate the term cis, it sounds like cyst.
The planet Uranus sounds like "your anus", but I'm not gonna call it something else because the name sounds too icky. Yeah I know it can be pronounced "yoor-ahn-us" to avoid the dirty jokes but you get what I mean.
I am not the planet Uranus so I don't really care what it's called.

Dizchu said:
UnloadedDevice said:
I don't want to be labeled with such a bizarre term that makes it sound like I have a medical condition for simply being a part of the vast majority.
Uhh... heterosexuals are the vast majority, doesn't mean we get to call them "normal" all of a sudden.

Do you have a problem with people outside the military or police being called "civilians" instead of "normal people"?
Normal is actually pretty context specific, you can be normal about some things while still being abnormal about others. It's just a numbers game. I'd say nobody is completely normal, but neither is anybody completely abnormal. I myself am abnormal in many aspects, but I also have many aspects that fit the norm.

And I've heard civilians be called normal people, I'm pretty sure neither the military nor the police cared. Being in law enforcement is abnormal, they are different, out of the majority.
 

Dizchu

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Sep 23, 2014
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UnloadedDevice said:
I am not the planet Uranus so I don't really care what it's called.
You're missing the point. What a word (prefix in this case) sounds like doesn't mean anything. I'm Welsh, I live in a country called "Wales" which of course sounds exactly the same as "whales". I don't get offended because it sounds like I reside in the bellies of large aquatic mammals.

Normal is actually pretty context specific, you can be normal about some things while still being abnormal about others. It's just a numbers game. I'd say nobody is completely normal, but neither is anybody completely abnormal. I myself am abnormal in many aspects, but I also have many aspects that fit the norm.

And I've heard civilians be called normal people, I'm pretty sure neither the military nor the police cared. Being in law enforcement is abnormal, they are different, out of the majority.
I think you are conflating the word "normal" with words like "common" or "average".
 

ShonMoccles

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Wow this was one very confusing poll to read. It took me a good minute and a zoomed in screen to click the the correct option. These results are interesting though... I hope more people respond so there is a clearer picture regarding the community.
 

Bat Vader

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UnloadedDevice said:
ThatOtherGirl said:
Ok, this is a completely valid thing to ask, I have no problem with it. It would be interesting to know better the demographics of the escapist community. But I do have one small comment, something that you may not have been aware of.

I get that not normal can mean just unusual without any negative connotations, but frequently "not normal" has been an attack used against trans people with all the negative connotations intended (deviant, disgusting, etc.) With that in mind the best term to use for gender identity if you can is cisgender or transgender. Cis meaning "not trans" in the same way trans means "not cis".

Thanks for listening, sorry to interrupt!
I really hate the term cis, it sounds like cyst. cis is not a common prefix in the English language, unlike trans. I don't want to be labeled with such a bizarre term that makes it sound like I have a medical condition for simply being a part of the vast majority. It almost sounds like a slur. So I won't use cisgender.

I have thought of an alternative to normal-gendered though, so I will change my OP.
Edit: Whether the poll will change is up to the whims of fate though.


MarsAtlas said:
I'm a typical gender but I can't say that I'm straight, sorry.
Whaaaa? Not transgender???
Your profile details said:
Location:
"that typically online-trans"
Occupation:
"dishonest, despicable raging c*nt"
Bio:
"insane transseuxal"
Did you not vote in the poll? Because there is only one vote for a trans option, and yet two(?) transgendered users have posted in the thread already.

Evonisia said:
I'm curious as to why you put men in the poll when you're asking about the women of The Escapist specifically.
Because people like to click on the polls. This way I still get the information I want, but everybody gets to click. Also it may be interesting to see the rest of the data anyway.
Whenever I see the word cis I think of the Confederacy of Independent Systems from the Star Wars prequels.
 

Thaluikhain

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Bat Vader said:
Whenever I see the word cis I think of the Confederacy of Independent Systems from the Star Wars prequels.
Cisapline Gaul, for me.

Alternatively, Cisylvania, where hetero-normative vampires come from.
 

Paragon Fury

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Jan 23, 2009
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ThatOtherGirl said:
UnloadedDevice said:
I lurk alot and it seems that the number of LGBT females on this site outnumbers the number of straight normal-gendered females.

My estimate would put around half of the frequent posters who's profile gender is set to female are trans, a further half of the remaining are LGB, leaving a quarter as straight normal-gendered females.

I'm curious to see what the actual numbers will be.
Ok, this is a completely valid thing to ask, I have no problem with it. It would be interesting to know better the demographics of the escapist community. But I do have one small comment, something that you may not have been aware of.

I get that not normal can mean just unusual without any negative connotations, but frequently "not normal" has been an attack used against trans people with all the negative connotations intended (deviant, disgusting, etc.) With that in mind the best term to use for gender identity if you can is cisgender or transgender. Cis meaning "not trans" in the same way trans means "not cis".

Thanks for listening, sorry to interrupt!
I'm going to have to go with what another poster said;

I'm not going to use the word "Cis" to describe myself or other normal people. For two reasons;

1: "Normal" is a factually correct term for people who are born male/female and are interested in the opposite sex. Heterosexual people who are their birth sex are the overwhelming, crushing majority of human beings. It also is correct because it is describing the only possible viable path for reproduction for human beings - the only one that works.

Being trans or homosexual is a perfectly natural thing that can and does occur, but there is no way you can twist the definition or meaning of the word normal to fit trans or homosexual people no matter how hard to try, at least in the context of their sexuality or identity. Normal could be used to describe other things about them IE: their eating habits or intelligence, but not their sexuality.

2: The LGBT community poisoned the well on the word "Cis" from the word go. I'd be willing to bet 95%+ of the people here and in general had their first experience with the word "Cis" not for a scientific use, but to be used as an insult against them or someone else. And not a mild insult either - every time I've personally seen the word or heard of other people being called it, it looks as if its being used on the same level as "******" or "*****" - something that is supposed to be a very vulgar and crude slur against the target.

Its likely to never be an acceptable word to use generally because of the connotations it has already.
 

Something Amyss

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Dimitriov said:
Since it's been brought up: As as a man who was born male, I REALLY hate the term cisgender also. It is just a really ugly sounding word.
Unfortunately (at least for the people who hate it), cisgender is already catching on as actual nomenclature. It's catching on and it's unlikely that there will be a term to surpass it.

Speaking of...

UnloadedDevice said:
It'll have to suffice that I don't like cisgender for many reasons, and if the transgender community came up with a term they like better than trans I wouldn't have a problem using it.
Which is also unrealistic, because the diction is set. Words and meanings change, but it tends to be a fairly slow process and we're unlikely to see other adoption.

UnloadedDevice said:
Why wouldn't they? The polls are anonymous. I'm not sure why trans people would want to skew the numbers against their own favour.
Doesn't matter if it's anonymous. You chose some fairly disingenuous and off-putting language. More to the point, as of the bottom of page 1 you are still defending your use of "normal," even as you try and say that "cisgender" offends your own sensibilities.

Why should I do anything even remotely helpful to you? Not a flame, an attack, or a judgment, this is a serious question. Why shouldn't trans people just look at the thread, say "nope" and back the hell out?

ThatOtherGirl said:
So when your poll gives sexuality options for everyone else but not us it kind of rubs us wrong. I'm sure you didn't mean anything by it, but it is another reminder of stereotypes and attacks made against us and in particular the humiliation we sometimes have to deal with of jumping through hoops and being forced to act like a stereotype of ourselves so we can be "trans enough" for some ignorant doctor out there.
Or the stereotypes of other people. It's not just doctors we deal with on a regular basis.

Risingblade said:
I'm starting to think your guys are just making up terms to confuse people...
If I need to do that to confuse people, I'm losing my touch.
 

Something Amyss

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Dec 3, 2008
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Paragon Fury said:
I'd be willing to bet 95%+ of the people here and in general had their first experience with the word "Cis" not for a scientific use, but to be used as an insult against them or someone else.
A very specfic group of people seem to say this, and it's not exactly a surprising group. This is evidently not the common experience, though. I think your metric is completely off.

To that point, there are more people complaining about "cis scum" than there are actually saying it. That's not the LGBT community poisoning the well. It's you guys.