Poll: I don't like UFC | Violence in Sport | Ronda Rousey status

[sky pies]

I usually start my posts with a bit of personal reference, but in this case I cannot really tell anybody the first time that I watched a UFC fight. All I know is that at some point in the last five years or so I began to become aware of a sport which glorified pinning people on the ground and whaling on their face as hard and fast as you can while the blood sprayed and the crowd bayed.

I am not hating on people who disagree with me, I'm honestly writing this post because I want to articulate a point of view that maybe doesn't get as much air time as other points of view. You can see from my poll that people are welcome to express alternate views on this thread, and I'll digest them.

Now, this is a personal opinion and one which I am fully aware is, if not in the minority, probably not as likely to be supported on an internet forum as the opposite opinion would be, the opinion however remains: I really don't like the idea of UFC fighting.

I don't like the savagery. I don't like the way young children are being shown it. I don't like the glorification of the kind of people who would end your life upon meeting them in a dark alley. I don't like the glorification of the kind of person who thinks degree of blood- and tooth-loss equates to sporting prowess. I don't see how a mother can be proud of a son or daughter who raises their blood-soaked fists in triumph after dismantling a stranger's face. I don't like what it says about contemporary society that this kind of sport can garner such a sincere and fervored following[footnote]Actually tbph I am not in the least bit surprised, I hold an outlook on humanity these days which people who have read other threads of mine, particularly on the Religion and Politics forum, may have picked up on[/footnote] - frankly, and I know this is rather a long bow, I draw comparisons between the surge in popularity for UFC in recent years to the growth of ISIS, who have also relied on a hitherto unheard of appreciation for shock and savagery among our desensitized younger populations.

What do you think?

----

Part II here and I want to make it clear that I understand what everyone likes about this sport. They say it is the ultimate final state of human physical prowess - what are we living in, some kind of amazonian struggle for unlocking our innate murderous potential? - that it is finally a sport where we can see a wide range of skilled martial artists compete, uninhibited.

These reasons are valid, I guess, if you're the kind of person who thinks acute martial danger is a key component of a human's daily skill requirement. Man, if everyone did UFC then the US wouldn't need so many guns! They could just roundhouse kick people into submission, a la Norris!

----

Spoiler: On Ron' Rousey

This thread obviously came about as a result of the recent defeat of Ronda Rousey at the hands of Holly Holm. I am perhaps more aware of this fight than I would usually be because it occurred in my current place of residence and the fight/it's result has been splashed all over the media therein for days.

A month or two ago I wrote a post on social media saying I didn't really like all the love Ronda Rousey was getting - as a role model and as a sportsperson. I was saying that I had no idea how people could support such a violent sport, and such a bloodthirsty exponent of said sport. I thought that, regardless of gender, people who go out of their way to cause harm in this way should be put in prison, given restraining orders and/or shunned by the public, but Rousey has somehow become like, the Angelina Jolie of the mid '10s.

This is an extension of what I said in the first section of this post, largely here because I mentioned it in the title and it was, as I've said, the thing that sparked off my writing of this post. If there is a redemption in the offing for UFC it must surely lie in the hands of intelligent technicians like Holm - an extremely relative term because she herself sent Rousey to plastic surgery with her barrage of savage blows. She won't make me want to watch this sport any more than I currently do, regardless of the upset.

 

[mizushinzui]

I think for the most part the whole existence of the UFC is a sign that people were getting bored with traditional combat sports, I assume that the reason it came around was thanks to a dropping in viewership of other sports of a similar nature so to 'up the ante' the owners of the UFC decided to make a more violent version.

Of course that assumption is completely baseless and I've seen all together about 10 minutes of UFC footage in my life so I might not be the best to assume these things.

As to if it's a good thing or not it's really hard to say. Personally I think it's a pointlessly bloody contest of strength that seems to aim itself towards testosterone driven men and teenage boys. My worry is that when I was a kid my friends and I were into practising wrestling moves on each other we had seen on the WCW or WWF and we used to badly injure each other all the time, I'd hate to see what happens if UFC moves start to appear at home!

I think it really depends on what people actually get out of the UFC, I can't imagine what it is that people take away from seeing two people beat the ever loving snot out of each other but then I'm not a UFC fan, someone who does watch and enjoy it might actually be able to tell you what they watch for.

Having said all that it's not like sports that came before UFC were exactly non-violent. People often get broken bones and battered faces when they participate in a professional boxing match, but for the most part it's quite an accepted sport.

 

[sky pies]

Some people actually like pinning each other onto the ground and wailing on them, or alternatively, getting wailed upon. I know because I am one of these people. Fight clubs existed well before the book and film popularized the notion. Hell, some people get off on it, mixing fighting and sex in the same activity, albeit wrestling and sex is far more popular.

They took off the gloves and added kicking into the regime. Thats MMA and the UFC. Its integral to our freedom that we have the ability to do such a thing.

I'm sorry I just find it impossible to relate to the idea of Fight Club-style catharsis, and I am utterly convinced it is because we shared different upbringings. I had a disconnected childhood which saw me shifting from country to country, culture to culture, every 3 years or so. I wouldn't trade it for anything but I just never got enough time in one culture to get indoctrinated into one emphasis or the other - I grew up in grey areas, drinking but not getting drunk, liking competition but not being aggressive about it, and this is clearly why I find it so hard to relate to people who think this kind of thing is beneficial on any level whatsoever.

Your emphasis on freedom and social rights is another example of the difference between us. This constant touchstone of rights and freedom is a position - pervasive in the US - that I utterly sidestepped in my upbringing. I have no idea why people would think that what they do in their personal time is some sort of meta-statement about society and warning to their government. I play sports because I want to be good at them and win games. I watch sports because I like to augment my own abilities and flex my critical muscles. Thanks to my upbringing I do not have anything to do with sports for reasons of reaffirming my superiority over others, though I do play with god knows how many people who do make it their mission to crush other people, but thanks to my honed talents I'm usually pretty adept at removing their egos from the equation *he said egotistically*~~

These reasons are valid, I guess, if you're the kind of person who thinks acute martial danger is a key component of a human's daily skill requirement.

Do you watch any other sport because you think that the expertise demonstrated within should be something that everybody has?

I don't actually watch many sports. In an average week I probably watch about 0-2 hours of live sport and about 1-4 hours or recorded sport. I watch the Tour de France because I have watched it - live or on telly, with or without my folks - year in year out since 1994, and it is part of my summer feelgoods. Similar reasons exist for my watching Grand Slam tennis, Rugby and Cricket. I watch Football (soccer) because I play it at a high level[footnote]Just saying, the iteration of Football that I play at a high level, the indoor variety, has no fixed or 'specialized' positions.[/footnote] and, in that case, yes it is something that I want to emulate on a near-daily basis. I have a fondness for 'boring' sports like lawn bowls, darts and such because I can appreciate the skill and concentration required to operate in these sports at the highest level.

The point I'm making about facets of UFC being crucial components of our daily skill requirement is that I don't think any of it is ever called for - in football, etc, you engage primarily in the perfection of team work, for instance. I'm not sure I want a guy to come into my business and start yelling, pounding his chest, daring anybody to try and be a better employee than him and challenging me to staring contest, arm wrestles or push up duels. I mean if that's the kind of will we're trying to hone in our sports then I guess I should paint black stripes on my cheeks and start stocking up on ragey-roids and protein powder.

To me its not about causing somebody to feel pain but to test your will against theirs.

Well again I see no reason for such 'tests'. Though again I put this down to our different cultural backgrounds.

Enough of my opinion though, I recognize all that you've said here. I get why you like this sport and why you think it is justified, I recognize the parts of your posts where you find the middle ground - where you discuss child participation, Rousey, etc - and I thank you for your alternate position. I'm not really convinced but I am ready to concede that my instinctively pacifist, wimpy approach to contests and sports - just trying to be satisfied that I am good, and to win :: not trying to beat others - is not going to be an adequate blueprint for popular appreciations of these endeavors.

 

[Loonyyy]

You're not hating on people, you're just comparing the rise of interest in MMA and the UFC to the rise of IS.

I'm sure it'd be fascinating to hear about how video games, and films violence are also like IS, since they're far more gory and explosively violent, but then again, I think we'd all rather not.

Yeah, sure, Rousey isn't a particularly good role model or whatever. I don't think it's particularly important. You don't have to be a rolemodel. I think that people want heroes, and often they pick sportspeople, and there is nothing inherently redeeming about athletes. It does take dedication, but it is among the most base and simple of expression. I think it's weird that people want to pick someone who's most famous for beating people in a controlled setting, before going back to advertising sportswear and modelling for magazine covers, and that most of what I see is just snippets of the apparent feud between her and Floyd Mayweather. Mayweather's a piece of shit, but I don't see why being in agreement with folks on that is particularly praiseworthy. Just another popularity boosting "beef" for everyone involved. There's far better, far more interesting people, to follow.

I think Rousey appeals to the usual set of values. Ideas about dedication, and willpower, hard work etc, that people love to pretend are an important part of sports (Which is why we watch them dieting and training, and the performance is an afterthought!). I think she appeals to a base narcissism that we all share, like most boxers and fighters. But I don't think she ever mattered. Everyone wanted to talk about her, meme her, when she had her moment in the spotlight. Now that she's been knocked down, they'll find someone else to do it to. Because these people are interchangeable. It's a never ending cycle of pointless ball kicking, hoop shooting, and face punching.

 

[sky pies]

You're not hating on people, you're just comparing the rise of interest in MMA and the UFC to the rise of IS.

Comparing is not connecting. I chose that word carefully. Both of the things use sensationalist youtube videos. I'm not saying UFC fans are jihadists ~_~

I'm sure it'd be fascinating to hear about how video games, and films violence are also like IS, since they're far more gory and explosively violent, but then again, I think we'd all rather not.

I have no problem with that suggestion. I don't play many hyperviolent games, but I'm not going to be blinkered enough to think that gaming has no influence on desensitization and violence in youth. This truth doesn't impede my experience of games.

I think that people want heroes, and often they pick sportspeople, and there is nothing inherently redeeming about athletes.

My appreciation of pro athletes only goes as far as marveling at the level of technical skill they've managed to acquire. They are also pretty good at dealing with high pressure, in some sports in particular. You try doing something with conviction and skill when 80,000 people are screaming at you - directly at you. These are not things that I find heroic or impossible, I genuinely think I could attain very real sporting prowess in a number of codes with sufficient training and 24 hour devotion, but that's because I was born with good sporting genes, I don't presume to understand the feelings of people who have less athletically adept bodies.

I look at pros and I think "Well if I had spent anywhere near that much time perfecting a sport then I'd be pretty good too." and I am comfortable with the fact that I don't have that much time to devote. The sum total of my discomfort with people like Rousey being role models has nothing to do with your or my own enlightened understanding of the true nature of sportspeople - the fact is young kids do believe the hype, do copycat and do get influenced by any number of things. I have seen it happen in my own life as sure as the sun has risen every day since I was born, that doesns't make me a weak or flawed human being. Also I'm lucky I didn't absorb any ultra-violence or I might be a completely different kind of person today.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Violence and conflict are a part of nature, despite millions of years of evolution it's still encoded in us. Sure, many civilizations may have advanced to the point where it's no longer necessary, but genetics don't know that, and as a result you have many, many people that are simply more aggressive than others, and thus society provides a controlled alternative to act as a release. Risks aside, fight clubs, MMA, boxing, and so on are great ways for people to get their aggression out of their system in a controlled environment. I mean, hell, I abhor violence on moral grounds, but my body doesn't care. So I turn to relatively harmless forms of media to give it what it wants. And while I'm not the sort to go join one myself, I do understand that their are people who are wired differently than I am and probably need that release, so I say let them go for it.

Though anyway, in regards to injuries and whatnot, this is why I prefer pro wrestling. You get the catharsis of a good fight, it's a great deal more exciting to watch because of the theatrics, and you can rest easy with the knowledge that the participants are really good friends who are actively protecting each other from injury throughout the match.

 

[CeeBod]

I used to learn Jeet Kune Do, and when it became apparent that I'd have to pretty much dedicate my life to it just to get to the level of barely competent, I switched to the rather easier to master Kickboxing. I find learning Martial Arts way more interesting than repeated boredom in the gym, and I can respect those who have achieved high levels of expertise with any Martial Art. It's a great way to keep fit, it builds discipline, helps with self-confidence, and it feels good to master your own body in that way.

Having said that, I think all forms of Mixed Martial Arts, including UFC, Cage-fighting, KFC and whatever the hell else are at best distasteful in the extreme. I know that TV is the modern day replacement for the Roman Arenas, but it's a little disturbing to see the crowd baying for blood like it's still 2,000 years ago and they're watching slaves kill each other in the Coliseum for our entertainment. The fighters don't particularly bother me, though some are obviously just thugs that enjoy inflicting pain, but it's the crowd that I find the most disturbing - I can understand the catharsis of taking part in something violent, I used to get the same from sparring at kickboxing, but I just flat out don't understand the bloodlust of watching violence - that shit just leaves me cold... and wondering about the humanity of the crowd!

 

[MysticSlayer]

OP, I understand your struggle. Thankfully, I found a sport that should appeal to you without having to watch so much BLOODSHED:

Spoiler

Look at that! People hugging and being nice! The pinnacle of a good sport! If only it had become the standard. That way ISIS wouldn't have become an issue.

...

More seriously, I don't care much for UFC itself, but I've heard the same "SAVAGERY" arguments raised against sports like football and hockey. I've even heard people make arguments that gamers are savages that are being desensitized to violence, but I guess no one here would know about that. Having been a fan of all three of these for years, I've been indirectly labelled as a psychopath looking for bloodshed that I've become desensitized to way too many times to count. As a result, I don't really take these "this sport is so savage" complaints too seriously. The complaints just an indirect way to judge people, most of whom you've never met.

 

[Callate]

I think it's perfectly reasonable to think that MMA cage fights are brutal and violent- because MMA cage fights are, indeed, often brutal and violent.

If one thinks that fighters are often remarkable and skilled athletes, well, that's also true.

I'm not comfortable just saying, "No, we shouldn't do this." It's pretty clear that there's a genuine risk of injury and even death involved in MMA fighting, but also that people who do it choose to do so. I agree that it's a bad idea to allow young children to watch such fights. But adults...?

*sigh*

You know... Sometimes when adults participate in something that's kind of ugly, you want to say they should know better. When you allow people to make their own choices, sometimes the results are painful to look upon.

But I don't really see a firm line that everyone can agree on, there. To a degree, you either believe that adults are capable of getting good information and making informed choices (God help you) or you don't, and yet- surprise surprise- you're somehow capable and worthy of making the über-choice for everyone else (aren't you special.)

The best I've been able to do is to ask if it does harm. And in that regard, I tend to insist on a fairly literal and immediate definition of "harm", not some vague and academic presumption that in twenty years someone will be demanding medication for this sordid moment that murdered their inner child, so to speak.

So in short: the fighters have some clue what they're in for. The fans might be a rowdy pack of dogs baying for blood, but hopefully they put that aside and go back to being functioning humans once they turn off the tv or leave the arena.

And are we a little more tolerant of violence in the "real world" because of organizations like the UFC? A little more jaded? Is this one more step on my country's descent toward bread and circuses?

I think I'll mow down a few dozen more on-screen bad guys with my minigun while I think about it, but I should probably not state a categorical certainty on the matter.

 

[TakerFoxx]

Violence and conflict are a part of nature, despite millions of years of evolution it's still encoded in us.

So it would seem are rape, incest, pedophilia, cannibalism, and mass murder; natural is a fact, not an endorsement.

No, the desire to procreate and the need for food are encoded in us, not rape, pedophilia, cannibalism, and so on. Hell, biology is even pretty no-no about incest and cannibalism. My point is that as much as we've evolved, we still have leftover violent impulses from a time when such things were necessary, some people more than others, and combat sports provide the opportunity to channel those impulses in a controlled environment rather than brawling on the street. I totally get why many people still consider them barbaric and a holdover from bloodsports like the gladiators. And in a way, they do feed into those same impulses. But since that part of humanity isn't going away any time soon, I'd rather there be a place with rules and referees available than not.

 

[MysticSlayer]

Well yeah, Football is fucking savage. You're talking about a sport that cripples a ton of players, and ruins the brains of many more.

And did I ever once say that there weren't health concerns with football? No.

No one cares. People want their sports more than they want athletes to be healthy.

Who's to say that a person can't care about the players' health and care about the sport?

To be fair, high level athletes tend to be shitty people.

Quite a massive stretch to generalize thousands of people, many of whom are under a high level of scrutiny and exposure, as shitty because a small percentage of them get on the news for doing something awful.

 

[FireAza]

UFC seems like human bear-baiting if you ask me. The concept seems to be "what style of martial art would win if pitted against another?" with the rules that are intended to keep the participants from seriously injuring each other (like requiring gloves in boxing) removed.

 

[FPLOON]

Well, Here Comes The Boom was a good movie with a questionable moment before the ending and the show Kingdom was good enough to get another season... I'm basically indifferent to it because that's the closest I've been exposed to it all without adding a giant asterisk in the form of a secondary source...

Other than that, is that what happened to Rousey? Huh... I'm going to guess that match lasted longer than that other Rousey match I saw through claymation...

 

[I can't enter my old name]

I haven't seen a UFC match besides like 30 seconds of the aforementioned match. It didn't look cruel or too violent for me, and i'm a baby when it comes to gore and violence. I don't have much if an informed opinion on that matter.

I can understand the catharsis of taking part in something violent, I used to get the same from sparring at kickboxing, but I just flat out don't understand the bloodlust of watching violence - that shit just leaves me cold... and wondering about the humanity of the crowd!

I'm not entirely sure that the audience was cheering because of some bloodlust. It would be odd if they enjoyed suffering that much. I think martial arts is aesthetically impressive to watch, and technically impressive if one is knowledgeable. I'm not, but a well choreographed fight scene is like watching violent dancing.

Violence and conflict are a part of nature, despite millions of years of evolution it's still encoded in us. Sure, many civilizations may have advanced to the point where it's no longer necessary, but genetics don't know that, and as a result you have many, many people that are simply more aggressive than others, and thus society provides a controlled alternative to act as a release.

I'm also on the "humans are naturally violent" side of the camp, not really natural born killers but more like people that cast stones. There is a time for violence, and that is often in the form of retribution. Aggressive behavior at the wrong time would be disastrous for a population, but at the right time it can wipe out a competing tribe.

I genuinely think that people don't like watching others suffer. We flinch when we see someone cut their finger, and at times the perceived pain is too much for an audience of a match. Most of us have empathy, and no amount of violent media or desensitization to violence can remove it if we can empathize with the victim. Dehumanization comes in handy when things need to get violent, so we should concern ourselves with that, not some "culture of violence".

 

[Megalodon]

the rules that are intended to keep the participants from seriously injuring each other (like requiring gloves in boxing) removed.

Hasn't that made boxing more dangerous though? Enabling boxers to punch harder without breaking their hands, plus establishing headshots as the norm (with the inevitable increase in concussions etc.). Isn't it a weird quirk that bare knuckle fighting was 'bloodier', as skin was broken more, but less damaging in the long run?

 

[Something Amyss]

that it is finally a sport where we can see a wide range of skilled martial artists compete, uninhibited.[/quote]

Well, except UFC is a gamed system with rules which favour certain martial arts over others. So it's not uninhibited. As such, UFC kind of bores me. I get why people are drawn to the spectacle, but it's not really that sort of competition.

Now I'm kind of curious, though. Like, I actually trained in martial arts that derive from killing sword strikes. Despite the fact that I'm a pacifist and don't even like to hit people when my life is in danger, this is a real thing that exists. Is that better or worse than cage fighting? These actually seem more normalised.