Poll: Is it sexist that men in the military have to shave their heads and women don't?

spartan231490

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Master of the Skies said:
spartan231490 said:
Let us think about this for a minute. The men have to and the women don't . . . is that sexist? Do you really even have to ask? But why aren't we talking about women not having to register for selective service? Really, WHY IS THIS STILL A THING?!!!
What makes you think it's currently a relevant issue? If there's no draft then why do you expect much momentum for change concerning it? There hasn't been a draft for decades. It's not going to get much momentum for change unless people start getting drafted.
What makes me think that it's currently relevant isn't because the US government is starting a new war every other fucking month, and eventually they're going to run out of volunteers. It isn't even because talks of a draft have been a matter of congressional debate in recent history. What makes me think it's a relevant issue is that it's fucking wrong, and I'm not an asshole who's just going to ignore it because it's not my problem. But I guess that makes me one of those complete weirdos who actually follows politics and gives a shit what this country is doing to the future of it's citizens.
 

MetroidNut

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Kalezian said:
Delta Force is the top of the top of Special Operations Groups. These are not people who just joined four years ago, their job is exactly not to look like a soldier, to look more at place where they are operating in.

Hell, in Special Forces? you can wear your uniform in any fashion. Pants un-tucked, bootlaces out, hell, sometimes you dont even have to wear the uniform at all, the least of which is facial hair grooming.

Commanders learned early on in Afghanistan that their culture views beards very highly, many village elders and sheiks didn't take Operators seriously for the sole reason of not having beards.

There are actually four worlds in the Army, at least, National Guard, whom everyone else hates with a passion, TRADOC, people responsible for training units and teaching the regulations and standards, Regular Army, exactly what it says on the tin, and Special Operations, which is an entirely different world from everything else.

Also, dont think just anyone can join Delta Force, they often choose candidates from Special Forces units, and even then it's usually the top 10%. Special Forces even have a rigorous trial, Soldier's who pass Selection often are on their second, third, or fourth try through, and even selection is tough that a majority of drop-outs are due to medical reasons during the process. Once passed that, then you spend about a year and a half taking various classes like Jump School, Sapper, Combat Diving, Survive Escape Resist Evade, often times Ranger Course, and a slew of other schools that are mandatory.

So the people in Delta? they kind of earned the right to wear a beard, they are kind of badasses to begin with.
My point exactly - they have beards for a very good reason and it's completely unrelated to the actual topic.
 

Generic4me

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It IS sexist, and I believe that all soldiers, male or female should have to adhere to the same standards. That obviously includes shaving your head.

Of course, considering that women can get into the military with lower physical abilities, it's not the issue the military should be focusing on.

The military exists to fight enemies and provide aid/protection to our allies, that nobody can deny. Everything they can do that makes them better at these jobs should be done.
 

Dragonbums

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deadish said:
Surprise amount of people defending the practice here for some reason.

If it's disadvantageous for men to have "long" hair, it should be for women too.

At the very least women need a "standard" haircut, preferable one that is as short as possible for easy maintenance.

There is a reason for all the standardisation and ceremony, it's part of the military indoctrination process.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recruit_training
Women do have a standard haircut though.
If I remember correctly their hair if let down cannot pass the shoulder line, and on active duty must always be up in a bun. Said bun should also not touch the lower back of your neck. Which goes back to the hair length part.
 

Johnny Novgorod

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What? I was pretty sure they could shave their heads. Didn't Demi Moore shave her head in that one army movie?
 

Libra

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bartholen said:
Libra said:
Wait... so you guys 'essentially lost [y]our individuality as a person'? And people join the army voluntarily? My god...
Wait WHAT? Shaving my head destroys my individuality? No offense, but that's one of the most ridiculous things I've heard in a while. Plus I served my military service, since it's mandatory where I live (which is not the US).

I was quoting the OP. He brought up the loss of individuality. Not my words, his. If you find that an offense statement, take it up with him
 

Schadrach

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Master of the Skies said:
spartan231490 said:
Let us think about this for a minute. The men have to and the women don't . . . is that sexist? Do you really even have to ask? But why aren't we talking about women not having to register for selective service? Really, WHY IS THIS STILL A THING?!!!
What makes you think it's currently a relevant issue? If there's no draft then why do you expect much momentum for change concerning it? There hasn't been a draft for decades. It's not going to get much momentum for change unless people start getting drafted.
While there hasn't been an actual draft in a long time, and they haven't actually charged someone with a crime for failing to register for it in nearly as long without said individual making a big point of having not registered, there's still the underlying point -- by virtue of being male, you are required to sign up to be sent off to die if Congress wills it. Failure to do so and be able to prove you did so has a laundry list of meaningful repercussions, including being ineligible for federal student aid and most state/federal government jobs.
 

The Gnome King

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Hectix777 said:
Please THINK and then post.
Definition of the word "Sexist" -

adjective
1. pertaining to, involving, or fostering sexism: a sexist remark; sexist advertising.
noun
2. a person with sexist attitudes or behavior.

OK, so what's "sexism" ?

Quite simply:
"Discrimination on the basis of sex."

SO, therefore, if men have to shave their heads and women do not it is, by definition, sexist. Yes. I see no reason why military women should be allowed to keep any shred of their individuality that men aren't. Heck, it's sexist to women to ALLOW them to keep their hair, it's like we're saying they couldn't handle it.

:)
 

The Gnome King

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Chemical Alia said:
But I don't see how it's sexist anymore than requiring men and women to have different class A uniforms, or making women wear skirts for certain events...
This is also sexist and should be discontinued. We need androgynous, "People's Uniforms" that are baggy and hide all hint of gender. (Seriously, that would be what is best for the military's cohesion.)
 

Chemical Alia

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The Gnome King said:
Chemical Alia said:
But I don't see how it's sexist anymore than requiring men and women to have different class A uniforms, or making women wear skirts for certain events...
This is also sexist and should be discontinued. We need androgynous, "People's Uniforms" that are baggy and hide all hint of gender. (Seriously, that would be what is best for the military's cohesion.)
I always felt that way as well. It seemed like a really pointless distinction. Having slightly different class As with different tailoring, necktab, lack of pockets but still the same colors and overall similar look was not that big of a deal. But having to wear the skirt and pumps to look more feminine just makes you stand out needlessly.
 

Erana

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What I can't help but wonder is how much of what we want to perceive as sexist here is as much due to cultures associated with race as much as sexism in a broader term. I don't think anyone would look twice at a black woman with a crew cut or a clean shave, for one. Also, I can't help but wonder if the genetic male predisposition towards baldness (which itself is more prone in men of European descent) actually might have some advantage that researchers have not pegged down, but still subconsciously contributes to the social acceptance of (relatively) longer hair being allowed for women in service.
I know that, in myself, temperature is a significant trigger to my otherwise lady hormone related migraines, and if I were bald, I would have an even more difficult time trying to keep myself from going to headache town.

Yes, this situation is unfair, and I would likely be in support of a man should they feel strongly enough about the issue to fight for his having equal hair regulations to women, but I would be peeved if all women had to shave their head.
 

shootthebandit

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Ihateregistering1 said:
AccursedTheory said:
Zachary Amaranth said:
AccursedTheory said:
Not really.

Hair standards for modern militaries are less about lice, and more about having soldiers that don't look like a crew of shitty 1980's mercenaries. Shaving a females hair, which may take years to grow back, really isn't practical. Sure, it may help with the whole training thing, but then what?

As it stands, be grateful. I knew a lot of females in the Army that had to wake up at 5 in the morning to be able to get their hair right for physical training.

You may not like short hair, but at least it's simple.
Why is it practical when men are made to shave their heads? What's stopping the women from looking like a "crew of shitty 1980's mercenaries?"
Because whether anyone likes it or not, the business standard, social standard, and perceived 'attractiveness' for males and females are different.

The vast majority of men wear their hair short when in a professional setting, and the vast majority of females wear it long.

And whats stopping females from looking like shitty mercenaries is AR 670-1. Which I actually haven't read in forever.

Here's an analysis of military hair standards.

http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/Prep_For_Basic_Training/Prep_for_basic_uniforms/hair-standards.shtml

The word of the day is professional.

Zachary Amaranth said:
TwoSidesOneCoin said:
Again call me an asshole if you will, but if I deploy and get shot and am surrounded with only women, I doubt they'll be able to drag my 235 lb ass into cover, oh wait, 260 lb ass loaded down with gear.
Talk from actual military folk who have been in that situation would indicate you're wrong. Not an asshole, but definitely not correct.
Actually, no. This is a very real concern. Males who meet current physical requirements can weigh up to 300 pounds depending on gear - That's tough as shit to drag.

Which isn't to say I've not known military women who couldn't do that. But the vast majority can't.

Then again, Ive known men who meet Army standards that couldn't haul that. The current PT test the Army uses (Unless they changed it in the last year) is woefully out of date. I've known several soldiers who scored 300 on their physical fitness test (Max score) who were from a practical stand point significantly weaker then I was (About 240 score), simply because they were super light weights. Sit ups and push up scores mean exactly jack shit when you weigh 160 pounds soaking wet.
You hit the nail on the head, the APFT (Army Physical Fitness Test) is woefully outdated, and way too heavily favors the 140 pound guys with 0.5% body fat.

Ranger Battalions have devised a huge new PT test that takes the better part of two days to execute, and 2 of the events are a 185 lbs benchpress and a 225 lbs deadlift (max reps). Plus you actually have to run in armor, so they're attempting to get away from the wiry guy who can run fast and more in line with someone who actually has some muscle.
Arent these tests just a basic test so that essentially anyone physically fit enough to run a few miles in all the army gear can join. Its all well and good saying they want a better standard but when they are desperate for recruits they arent exactly looking for the spartan 300
 

Gameguy20100

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Sexist maybe. But I can see why they have to do it.

Lice can be an issue and I can see why a guy with long hair might have a disadvantage in close combat.

then again I don't see why They can't just put it into a ponytail or something.
 

BathorysGraveland2

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SimpleThunda said:
However, is it a big deal?

Well. No.
This is what amuses me. People are quick to say it isn't an issue, or a big deal, but put yourself into the shoes of a guy who has been growing out his hair over the course of many years. A guy who feels comfortable with himself because of said hair, who may develop anxiety issues without it. Suddenly, yes, it is a big deal. Especially when it's turned into a big deal unnecessarily (as I said in a previous comment, men can take care of long hair just as well as women can).

Things can have a big effect on people even if they don't seem that important to others, such as yourself.
 

Mr F.

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MetroidNut said:
AccursedTheory said:
Bestival said:
I disagree with anything and everything the army does, so also this!
Never made much sense to me anyway, when you see those dudes that have a shaved head and a fucking ZZ Top beard. How the hell does that work?
...What?

Who's Army are you looking at?
Delta Force, apparently.

The military would, presumably, want everyone to shave their heads for the purpose of uniformity if it was practical. But where it is reasonable to require men to shave their heads, it is unreasonable to require women to, since a shaved head is much more socially acceptable for men than women. So I guess you can argue it's sexist, but if so, the issue is sexism within society at large, not the military.
Run away!

You are being rational and calm on an escapist forum with "Sexist" in the thread. Prepare to be immolated.

OT: Uh, exactly what this guy said. Society is rather interesting. Considering we associate baldness with manliness, lots of women with short hair/shaved heads are thought of as lesbians. So whilst it makes a man look more manly and aggressive and GRRR AGGRESSION, traits we like within the army, when off base the man will look like... a bloke with short hair. However, the woman, what with being in the peak of physical fitness (Hopefully, they are in the army after all), combine that with short hair and people will think they are lesbians.

Which is not a bad thing, bar all the abuse and whatnot and the social unacceptability. There are far bigger fish to fry with regards to sexism in the army. But as the OP stated he didn't want that sort of real discussion and would rather concentrate on something small, banal and vaguely unequal with regards to how men and women are treated. Great.

I can understand uniform and regulation, perhaps it is just about time we gave up on the whole "Men need a buzz cut" thing. My hair has never slowed me down whilst running, climbing, biking, crawling, caving or any of that shit and its passed shoulder length. As long as hair is manageable there should be no issue. Tie it back (Ponytail is what I rock.) and all shall be fine.

There is an ongoing problem with sexual assault in the U.S. military which has resulted in a series of scandals that have received extensive media coverage. According to a 2011 Newsweek report, women are more likely to be assaulted by a fellow soldier than killed in combat. The Department of Defense estimates there are about 19,000 sexual assaults in the military per year but according to the latest Pentagon statistics (2013), only 1,108 troops filed for an investigation during the most recent yearly reporting period and during that period, only 575 cases were processed. Of the cases processed, only 96 went to court-martial.[1] Another investigation found that only one in five females and one in 15 males in the United States Air Force would report having been sexually assaulted by service members.[2]
Incidents which have been publicized include the Tailhook scandal in 1991, the Aberdeen scandal in 1996 and the 2003 US Air Force Academy sexual assault scandal. In an attempt to deal with this problem the Defense Department has issued the Department of Defense Sexual Assault Response policy. A provision in the fiscal 2004 National Defense Authorization Act required investigation and reporting regarding sexual harassment and assault at the United States military academies. A report was published in the New York Times magazine in March, 2007 which surveyed women soldiers' experience in the Iraq War showing significant incidence of post traumatic stress syndrome resulting from the combination of combat stress and sexual assault.[3] 15% of female veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan who have visited a VA facility have screened positive for military sexual trauma.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_assault_in_the_United_States_military

The sexism comes in at a structural level (Amount of assaults reported vs taken to court martial) and a general level, higher levels of sexism = higher levels of sexual assault. Or someone could start a debate with me about that. Thing is, I deliberately put this in a spoiler. If you want a discussion about sexual assaults and sexism, start up another thread random person and link me into it so as not to derail this one.

So yes and no. Yes, it is sexist that women are not required to shave their heads, but it is sexism on a structural societal level, not from the military. If society was equal, and it was deemed acceptable for women to have shaved heads, you can bet your balls that the military would require it.
 

Shock and Awe

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A fellow cadet eh? First year at the citadel here.

OT: Seeing as the haircuts these days are more for looks then anything else outside A-stan, I see no issue with women being allowed to have more hair then men as that is what is culturally accepted as a better way to wear hair, even in a military uniform. As for places where bullets fly, practicality should rule, that means high and tights for all!