Poll: Is the encouragement of Feminism/Women's Rights, a form of Cultural Imperialism?

[honeybunch]

Was freeing the slaves in the American South after the Civil War cultural imperialism? Maybe. Was it the right thing to do? Absolutely.

Of course, women have the right to act subservient to men, if they choose to. There are plenty of women in America who still do, and while I personally find that attitude quite depressing, I have no right to force them to stop.

The situation of women in many Muslim countries is quite different. It's not that they're making a choice to be subservient; it's that they have no other options. They're expected to marry who they're told to. They're expected to go nowhere except in the company of a male relative. They're not allowed to drive a car. Basically, they have no independence, and no choice. In more rural areas of some Muslim countries, a woman can be stoned to death for committing adultery. Sometimes a woman's husband will claim that she's committed adultery simply so that he can easily get out of a marriage. That's simply immoral, and everyone should be trying to change that, whether it's cultural imperialism or not.

Now, I'm not saying that the West should go in with guns and bombs and force a change that way. That's obviously not the right solution. Nor should we forbid wearing burqas or hijabs, or force women to drive or get jobs. But there's nothing wrong with exerting economic or media influence on nations that are acting in ways that violate human rights, and I hope the West should continue to do so. Woman should not be forced into a certain societal role, but they should be able to choose how to live their own lives.

 

[Azahul]

Gah, this whole topic disgusts me. Islamic culture is not inherently mysoginistic, just some aspects where Fundamentalist Islam rules supreme. And as any Christian should know, a Fundamentalist version of a religion has nothing to do with that religion at all. They tend to pick and choose which bits from their given holy book that they want to believe in, and then make up the rest of the rules and traditions in a way that best suits the people in power.

Islam, the burqa and hijab, none of these things are inherently mysoginistic. In fact, the actual point of the burqa and hijab is to promote respect towards women. Now, of course any society that makes the wearing of a particular item of clothing on pain of death or torture is not a good society, but I would argue that the same goes to any society that bans the wearing of certain clothing (looking at you, France).

Basically, the actual item of clothing has nothing to do with any of this. It should be something anyone should be allowed to wear if they want to, particularly if they belong to the appropriate culture and believe in what it stands for (things like respect towards women). The problem is that most of these places where the burqa and hijab are mandatory are run by governments (or sometimes not run by their governments) that have many worse things going for them than making a certain mode of dress compulsory.

 

[Tselis]

'Honor' Killings, no voting, no driving, can't wear what they want, beaten if they go out in public without a male 'guardian', and the list goes on. The men do abuse their women. It's not a man v. woman issue though, it's a human oppressing human issue. It needs to be tackled, but only time and education will do the trick.

 

[Zen Toombs]

So I was thinking after seeing a couple videos on how people in the West(Europe/US) react to the idea of the Burka and how people felt that it was wrong for women to wear them.

I find there to be a distinction between encouraging women's rights and simply freaking out. For example, France relatively recently banned (or attempted to ban, I forget which) the use of the Burka amongst their citizens. This is despite the law only affecting a tiny number of people, and that those people chose to wear the Burka willingly.

Women should be treated equally to men, and so they should not be forced into OR out of certain forms of dress. If they choose to wear a particular article of clothing or act in a certain way, it is her business unless someone else is being harmed. We wouldn't want that sort of thing to happen to us, and so we shouldn't do it to others.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Islam, the burqa and hijab, none of these things are inherently mysoginistic. In fact, the actual point of the burqa and hijab is to promote respect towards women. Now, of course any society that makes the wearing of a particular item of clothing on pain of death or torture is not a good society, but I would argue that the same goes to any society that bans the wearing of certain clothing (looking at you, France).

But doesn't France have the right to decide whether or not it wants to allow the wearing of such clothes to be part of their society? If you think that banning clothes is wrong, then what if, hypothetically, someone's traditional clothes were not more conservative but actually more revealing (and by that I mean parts of their body that we consider taboo to show in public were exposed)? An example could be if a women wanted to wear traditional Zulu clothes in France, which would mean exposing her breast every where she went. Would you be apposed to France banning such traditional clothings?

Here is an example of Zulu clothes (waring there is nudity):
http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/traditional-zulu-woman.jpg

 

[HappyPillz]

No it isn't. They can do whatever they want within their culture, but when they travel to countries of a different culture they should be expected to abide by that countries laws and norms. If they don't like it then they can go back.

 

[honeybunch]

Islam, the burqa and hijab, none of these things are inherently mysoginistic. In fact, the actual point of the burqa and hijab is to promote respect towards women. Now, of course any society that makes the wearing of a particular item of clothing on pain of death or torture is not a good society, but I would argue that the same goes to any society that bans the wearing of certain clothing (looking at you, France).

But doesn't France have the right to decide whether or not it wants to allow the wearing of such clothes to be part of their society? If you think that banning clothes is wrong, then what if, hypothetically, someone's traditional clothes were not more conservative but actually more revealing (and by that I mean parts of their body that we consider taboo to show in public were exposed)? An example could be if a women wanted to wear traditional Zulu clothes in France, which would mean exposing her breast every where she went. Would you be apposed to France banning such traditional clothings?

Yes.

I personally think men and women should be treated equally by the law, including in such frivolous areas as whether or not they're required to wear shirts.

There have actually been a number of court decisions in the US over this issue, and I know at least a few times the women suing have won. In New York state, for instance, women are legally allowed to be topless in public. It's still strongly at odds with social norms of course, so most women don't take advantage of it, but that's the law.

 

[Loonyyy]

So I was thinking after seeing a couple videos on how people in the West(Europe/US) react to the idea of the Burka and how people felt that it was wrong for women to wear them. However, when Arab-Muslim women were asked about it, they didn't understand what the big problem was and some Muslim men were pissed that they are being accused of mistreating their wives/girlfriends. (I can understand why the men might be pissed because if somebody told me that the way my culture treats my mom,aunt, grandma, cousin, girlfriend, ect. is wrong and I'm a bad person for supporting such a thing) So I makes me wonder if telling the Muslim world how they should treat women, even if it goes against their tradition, is a form of Western cultural imperialism? What do you guys think?

Nope. If you force them NOT to wear the Burqa, hijab etc, then you're being an imperialist, whatever blah blah. That's wrong. But if you tell them they don't have to wear it, and their tradition and culture is flawed, and try to help them to accept women as equals, then it's right. The question is force. Many Islamic women wear them out of choice, rather than forcing them to accept something, you just educate them about it.

On the other hand, preventing the stoning women who are adultorous and the like is infringing on their culture, but the reason isn't anything to do with their culture.

In my mind, if you make secular, humanist, ethical and moral decisions valuing the rights and the beliefs of others, and only because of those values and beliefs, rather than making decisions based on culture, tradition and religion, then you're not an imperialist: you simply enforce and promote a fair and rational society.

Islam, the burqa and hijab, none of these things are inherently mysoginistic. In fact, the actual point of the burqa and hijab is to promote respect towards women. Now, of course any society that makes the wearing of a particular item of clothing on pain of death or torture is not a good society, but I would argue that the same goes to any society that bans the wearing of certain clothing (looking at you, France).

But doesn't France have the right to decide whether or not it wants to allow the wearing of such clothes to be part of their society? If you think that banning clothes is wrong, then what if, hypothetically, someone's traditional clothes were not more conservative but actually more revealing (and by that I mean parts of their body that we consider taboo to show in public were exposed)? An example could be if a women wanted to wear traditional Zulu clothes in France, which would mean exposing her breast every where she went. Would you be apposed to France banning such traditional clothings?

Here is an example of Zulu clothes (waring there is nudity):
http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/traditional-zulu-woman.jpg

This ones interesting, since it's about the concept of modesty and what's appropriate. I may not necessarily want to see nudity, and I certainly don't want to see some people naked, but is there any actual moral issue with nudity, and is there any harm that comes of it? As you pointed out, some cultures have differing standards on modestey. Maybe nudity shouldn't be illegal. Just stay away from the old folks home.

 

[idarkphoenixi]

I'll go with the old favourite of: Just because something is traditional, doesn't make it acceptable. But it goes far beyond Burkas in countries like that. Women are not considered equal to men and its become so much a part of their culture that many women just accept it.

 

[Azahul]

But doesn't France have the right to decide whether or not it wants to allow the wearing of such clothes to be part of their society? If you think that banning clothes is wrong, then what if, hypothetically, someone's traditional clothes were not more conservative but actually more revealing (and by that I mean parts of their body that we consider taboo to show in public were exposed)? An example could be if a women wanted to wear traditional Zulu clothes in France, which would mean exposing her breast every where she went. Would you be apposed to France banning such traditional clothings?

Here is an example of Zulu clothes (waring there is nudity):
http://yeyeolade.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/traditional-zulu-woman.jpg

If women want to walk around half-naked, I'm all for it

And, seriously, I'm actually ok with that. In fact, I'm not all that fussed at the idea of scrapping indecent exposure laws altogether. In Western countries, you're unlikely to see more than a few non-drunk people legitimately deciding to walk around naked, just as you're unlikely to see more than a few women walking around wearing the burqa. If those few people want to wear what they feel is appropriate even if it defies existing convention, then I'm fine with it.

 

[AnotherAvatar]

I think we have no room to talk until our culture stops treating women like sex objects. While it may not be all over the mainstream media it's totally still going on, and rape in America is still running strong too.


Honestly, I think America just likes to talk shit about other cultures as a way of ignoring it's own glaring flaws. When was our last year without a war again?

 

[efAston]

It's not, but capitalism does try to hijack it quite often, which is where senseless garbage like the "girl power" movements come from. If you actually read feminist writers, there's a variety of ideologies encompassed by it, many of which are contrary to the mainstream culture of western women's stated interpretations of gender roles. They tend to all get lumped together, which is a lot like lumping all nationalists together and saying that they're self-contradictory, because they're anti-Semitic and accuse Arabs of being anti-Semitic. You'd of course be ignoring that you're actually talking about two completely different camps of nationalism with completely different opinions, which is pretty obvious, but people do it all the time with feminism.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I think we have no room to talk until our culture stops treating women like sex objects. While it may not be all over the mainstream media it's totally still going on, and rape in America is still running strong too.


Honestly, I think America just likes to talk shit about other cultures as a way of ignoring it's own glaring flaws. When was our last year without a war again?

Last I checked, disapproval of the Burka is NOT unique to America, just look at France.

 

[remnant_phoenix]

It is and it isn't.

It is because we're injected our values on them. Even among modern western-minded rational feminism (forget about the extremists), the consensus is that a woman should be free to do what she wants. If a woman truly WANTS to be a stay-at-home mom and homemaker, then most feminists would say that she should, as long as she is truly doing it because she wants to and not because she feels socially pressured to do so. By that same token, if a woman in the Middle East wants to submit her culture by wearing a burka, she should be free to do so.

It isn't because most women in many cultures do what they do not because they WANT to, but because there is legitimate danger to not doing so. Ergo, saying that women should not be forced into a submissive role and being made to wear burkas isn't a cultural issue, it's a human rights' issue.

I'd say that in the majority of cases, it is definitely cultural imperialism; it's modern western culture saying, "Hey, the way we do things? Yeah, it's better. So you need be like us."

On the other hand, as a person who strongly believes in human rights and personal freedom, I believe that there is some small measure of truth underlying that attitude. Western culture has a stronger degree of respect for human rights and personal freedom, so (as much as it makes me feel dirty and xenophobic to say this), in a way, our culture is, in my opinion, superior in that respect.

There is a fine line "cultural imperialism" and "defending human rights and freedoms" in this case. Although, I imagine that for people of that culture it would be VERY difficult to see the difference.

 

[AnotherAvatar]

I think we have no room to talk until our culture stops treating women like sex objects. While it may not be all over the mainstream media it's totally still going on, and rape in America is still running strong too.


Honestly, I think America just likes to talk shit about other cultures as a way of ignoring it's own glaring flaws. When was our last year without a war again?

Last I checked, disapproval of the Burka is NOT unique to America, just look at France.

Hmm, true. Well maybe it's just all of the west then, but I only really feel comfortable speaking for my country as I know tons of people in it who are constantly talking shit about other cultures while they do fucked up things here, where as I've met like MAYBE a total of 4 French people, 3 Germans, and a room full of Brits.

 

[justnotcricket]

Was freeing the slaves in the American South after the Civil War cultural imperialism? Maybe. Was it the right thing to do? Absolutely.

Of course, women have the right to act subservient to men, if they choose to. There are plenty of women in America who still do, and while I personally find that attitude quite depressing, I have no right to force them to stop.

The situation of women in many Muslim countries is quite different. It's not that they're making a choice to be subservient; it's that they have no other options. They're expected to marry who they're told to. They're expected to go nowhere except in the company of a male relative. They're not allowed to drive a car. Basically, they have no independence, and no choice. In more rural areas of some Muslim countries, a woman can be stoned to death for committing adultery. Sometimes a woman's husband will claim that she's committed adultery simply so that he can easily get out of a marriage. That's simply immoral, and everyone should be trying to change that, whether it's cultural imperialism or not.

Now, I'm not saying that the West should go in with guns and bombs and force a change that way. That's obviously not the right solution. Nor should we forbid wearing burqas or hijabs, or force women to drive or get jobs. But there's nothing wrong with exerting economic or media influence on nations that are acting in ways that violate human rights, and I hope the West should continue to do so. Woman should not be forced into a certain societal role, but they should be able to choose how to live their own lives.

Well put - I was wondering how to express my opinion on this issue, but you've done it for me!!

 

[Vault101]

the women dont have a problem with it because...its just "normal"

however if a woman DIDNT weant to wear one (depending on how strict they were with that kind of thing) then she would be in trouble...thats where the issue is

 

[Pendragon9]

We should FORCE them to give people the option. I know that's ironic, but it's not fair if someone doesn't want to abide by something that won't hurt anyone else, and yet they're threatened with violence.

If women want to wear it in religious observance, let them. They should have the choice.


If women don't want to wear it, but they're forced to anyway, that's wrong.

Also, I LOVE the irony here that so many people are missing.

It's apparently wrong for America to force other countries to do things against their will, but it's okay for men in the east to force women to do things against their will?

What if I said "but America dominating countries is tradition! You can't force us to do otherwise"? By many people's logic in this thread, you would be in the wrong by protesting us if we nuked other countries, because it's "tradition".

Sometimes tradition has to change.

 

[LilithSlave]

Maybe technically it falls under the term. As would spreading the ideal to another country that "slavery is wrong" be cultural imperialism.

But there are some parts of culture that honestly need to die.

And the spread of culture throughout the world(multiculturalism/interculturalism) is honestly a good thing. Monoculturalism, despite what enthusiasts claim. Does not preserve culture. Sure, there's only so much culture one can support within their life(which is why it makes sense and shouldn't be called racism for one person to show preference for one culture over another, such as being a Francophile or Finnophile or Japanophile, since you can't learn all culture/languages within your lifetime very easily).

Interculturalism does a lot more to preserve culture than monoculturalism. Sure, forced, "politically correct" multiculturalism doesn't preserve culture. The "multiculturalism" some people think about when they here the word, but that's because it's patronizing and disrespectful towards all cultures.

But generally culture should be spread by whomever, whenever. And the spread of feministic ideals is a good thing. It helps relieve inequalities between women and men. And racism and sexism definitely still exist in the world and should be combated. The negative type of "cultural imperialism" by "insisting ideals" or not forcing anyone into anything. Would be things like Hollywood ideals and culture. English is currently the world language, while other languages are dying. American pop culture is more popular abroad and more widespread than any other. Dominating other cultures. Since modern-ness is almost equivalent to "pop-culture-ness", this means that the American pop culture is literally in the process of destroying other cultures. And many good aspects of other cultures, instead of bad ones.

You can see this in the fact that other countries typically have American food as an enthusiastic icon. Pizza and McDonald's and all that. It's "hip" and "modern" and seen as superior to local traditions. While in American media, such things are often not present or even edited out to be fit for the eyes of the imperializers. For instance, Japanese food is edited out of American Pokemon episode to be deemed acceptable or interesting viewing material. But in a place like Japan, American food would be be lapped up in Japanese media as acceptable and "hip". Thus existing a global imbalance and a cultural flow that does not go two ways.

For another example, English is so popular throughout the world, not only is it the "world language", but it is considered "hip" and cool throughout the world to speak a form of pidgin with English randomly thrown into their native tongue. And almost no one mocks or calls them out on it, except native English speakers, who look down on them for their foreign-ness. On the other hand, a person who would use a language like Spanish, Russian, Chinese or Japanese in the middle of an English sentence, would be looked upon as a weirdo, and possibly even called racist names(how many times have you heard someone say "stop using Japanese in the middle of an English sentence, you idiot?). While the same kind of Engrish pidgin, is not looked down upon in Japan or Asia. And most of the mocking of "Engrish", the equivalent of saying "kawaii" in the middle of an English sentence, is done by native English speakers. Who again, find other cultures to be "strange" and "other" to begin with.

Thus are just two example of how non-English, particularly non-American culture are in what is a part of a uneven spread or flow of culture which is a form of cultural imperialism. And unlike, say, feminism becoming the norm. This someone tends to dehumanize many cultures, cultures that are from poor countries, cultures that aren't very industrialized, cultures that are not native English speakers, and so forth, as inferior to others. Causing languages to die, and for the media at large, and the public conscious about what is normal and what is weird and foreign, to favor "cool, English speaking Americans". Usually of some tan variety between very dark and very light.

Every country and every culture should give women power and equality in comparison to men. On the other hand, no country should give another language priority over their own.

Don't take me as villainizing or hating Anglo or American pop culture or anything. I have a piece of American pop culture in my avatar, a show I love dearly. I am just saying though that the sorts of cultural imperialistic worry, like what with Rammstein sing about, are not to do with women having a better position of society, even if it supplants the culture that was already there to a degree. But that cultural aspects that are good will die off. As the English language is flourishing, and spoilt brats like Paris Hilton are living quite wastefully, people are starving and languages are dying. And I will admit that the flow of culture seems to be moving disturbingly one way. I think that other cultures deserve just as much a part and place in the world as we do.

 

[zehydra]

It is, but that doesn't mean that we don't have a good reason for doing so.

But then I have to ask, if its for the greater good (I'm just assuming that's your argument) then where do we draw the line as to what we can tell them to do? Can we go too far in an effort to try to protect human rights?

well sure. I'm not really trying to justify it, I'm just saying that something being cultural imperialism doesn't make it by necessity a bad thing.