Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[superbatranger]

I always thought of it as being a number.

 

[Zacharine]

So your saying im wrong for calling 1 a number, when you litterally just said "Therefore, 1 can be a placeholder, while simultaneously being a number"

To put this in perspective, you are asking me "Is this furniture, or made of wood?"

not realizing that the categories can and often do overlap.

but is a rectangle a square? or is a square a rectangle?
They dont always over laps. Some things have 2 rules. And like 0 and 1, there are many rules.

And you've failed to show that this applies to categories 'placeholder' and 'number'.

YOu agreed with this just now, "some placeholders can be numbers".

So you've refuted yourself.

Now, unfortunetaly, I'll have to leave for a weekend vacation. I can get back to you on sunday.

If you have further arguments by then, I'll check them out.

ok. have a nice time. Give the Mr/Mrs/Closest living family member going with you my best.
And yes, some can, but 0 isnt one of them~

Just doing a quickie here.

So, we agree that some numbers can be placeholders: symbols that are replaced later by strings.

We agree number 1 is one of these.

Do you agree -1 is one of these?
Do you agree Pi is one of these?

I argue they are.

In fact, I'm prepared to argue any number is. But this was and is about zero, so I'll focus on that.

Now, convince me, what makes zero so special that unlike other numbers, it cannot be both a placeholder and a number.

Remember, so far, to formalize this just a tad
property (a) = is a number
property (b) = is a placeholder

Since we have symbols like 1, for which both (a) and (b) apply, you cannot simply declare that for zero "(b) applies, thus (a) does not".

Or to put it in another way: You have not established (a) and (b) as mutually exclusive, and you agree that there is at least one case where they explicitly are not exclusive: number 1.

Thus, generally, they cannot be mutually exclusive.

We both agree that for zero, (b) applies.

So, suggested next step for you:

Establish that specifically for zero, these properties are mutually exclusive.

Oh, and thanks for the well wishes.

 

[JoshGod]

well sir if your going to argue that 0 is not a number because as you said

then you there for have to say that 1 is not a number it is 0.9999999999999999 and that is true.

explanation of why tis true;
x=0.999999999
therefore
10x=9.999999999
if you subtract 1x from 10x then you get
9x=9
simpified
x=1

therefore sir i have confused myself, well done i would take my hat of to you, if only i was wearing one.

This only works if the string of 9s in 0.999999999 is infinitely long.

i know that im not an idiot thank you.

 

[silvermorning624]

snip
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Number
Use that definition then

And considering that i said, it could have a different rule from other numbers.
You just agreed with me by posting that. xD 0 can be a place holder and not a number.

That assumes, of course, that a placeholder cannot be a number (which numbers are).

So your saying 0 is not a nmber, but a place holder?

That would be a better way to put it. If you will notice I have written about this in my other post.

So then you agree with me? xD 100%?


I like how i thought everyone was against me, and now there are 2 people with more or less the exact same view as me.

Allow me to emphasis i find the idea to be much more than a placeholder. In that capacity it serves the purpose of place holder, but rather 0 can represent a much more profound idea.

 

[Player 2]

Yes, I have 0 frogs in my hand, if they're somewhere else it doesn't matter because they still won't be in my hand.

 

[T3hMonk3y]

]Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?[/i][/u]

Your displacement is 0 whislt you have travelled a distance of 6m. Displacement is a vector quanity meaning that it needs a magnitude and a direction therefore displacement can be negative. Distance is a scalar quanity and therefore does not need a direction and cannot be negative EVER. It is impossible to travel the distance of -3m. However it is very possible to have a displacement of -3m.

 

[Ross Fixxed]

To my mind, zero is very much a number, and as much of a 'concept' as 1 or 2424 or even 434563474. Zero could possibly be debated as a valid 'quantity' which you seem to be speculating over.

I would personally consider it a valid quantity also. This is my first post here, before this one I had zero posts!

The very concept of numbering things is a human construct and once philosophy begins to be applied to the axioms it can end in the 'language takes a holiday' aspect of philosophy.
Maybe this post existed in my own brain. Realistically though the value of zero, and the quantity of zero is clear here within the escapist's forum database.

 

[pearcinator]

I am travelling ZERO miles per hour when I am stopped in traffic.

Therefore, Zero is a number.

 

[DRSH1989]

Well in mathematics, 0 (zero) is used as a number which implies the value of having nothing. There is also -0 and 0+ if I'm not mistaken when using right or left limits. In IT, we have 0 and 1 where 0 si usually false and everything else (1) is true... but 0 can also be used as a value in IT if we use programming to make a mathematics software... lol, I'm hardly an expert.
What I'm trying to say is that the meaning of "0"/zero/null/nil depends on the field/area of expertise that you are reffering to. In the 1st post of this thread you're kinda talking about 0 as philospher. For a mathematician 0 is what it is, for a programmer 0/null/nil/etc is what it is and can be something else, for a philosopher (from my point of view at least)... well philosophy implies a deep understanding of lots of things... logic, point of view...
My question is: Does it matter what 0 is and where it comes from more than how you use 0 to keep score of something or create something else?

 

[Shifty Tortoise]

I'd make an argument, but there are so many people here vastly more intelligent than me that it wouldn't even make a difference.

I will say that I do think it's a number though

 

[Yopaz]

Zero is a number, but it isn't needed as much as many other numbers, it's still a number.
In math it's a number that you can't divide by because that makes it infinite.
If you got no money in your bank you would know that 0 wasn't messing around there.
When you draw graphs 0 is there to divide the positive and the negative letting you know exactly when the change happens, there is a difference between even the smallest positive values, zero and the smallest negative value. When a graph crosses through origin it will be a double zero, or if 2 vectors are orthogonal the dot product will be zero. If zero wasn't a number then we couldn't have orthogonal vectors does that mean 90 isn't a number then? or pi for that matter? Though it is abstract it still deserve a place as a number for me and I praise Islam for making zero.
A limbo of numbers it is, but really, unbaptized numbers need a place to go when they die too.

 

[Teddy Roosevelt]

Like all properties of math, there is literally no arguing. Mathematics are universal truths. Zero is a number.

Now, infinity, being another similar question, is not a number, because it does not function as numbers should in formulas and such. it is a concept and not actually a number.

 

[Dogstile]

0 and nothing are both numbers in the same way 1 and a single are both numbers.

 

[voetballeeuw]

Yes it is. And your example of traveling three miles forward then three back, is distance vs displacement.

 

[PixelJunk]

In the context of modern day mathematics zero is certainly a number. And even within the physical universe we are just learning of dark energy "energy of nothing."


When you put this into a Neimanmeyer setting you can't really say that it is not a number. To deny it would also be denying 74% of the universe.

 

[bew11]

I realize that I already know the outcome of this poll. Most of you are going to say yes. And I don't blame you, because that's what you've been taught.

But I'd like you to take a step back and examine it further. I claim that zero is more of a concept than a number. It is a placeholder to theorize the space between positive and negative.

You could also ask if nowhere is a place.

 

[Ravek]

Like for example, lets try and multiply nothing.

.......

See what I did there? I multiplied nothing. I did nothing. And nothing happened.

Actually, multiplying nothing gets you 1.

(In the sense that the product of an empty set is 1. Of course we merely defined that to be so because then we can define products more elegantly: P({}) = 1, P({x}) = x, P(A U B) = P(A) * P(B), you get the point. I'd place a capital Pi instead of the P, but apparently the forum software can't decently handle unicode characters.)