Poll: Is zero a number? (Read before voting)

[Deadman Walkin]

How about, there is 1 species of butterflies left. We kill them all, resulting in 0 species of butterflies left. Yes, you could say that butterflies no longer exist (alive) or that there are no butterflies. However, there are other words for numbers, such as homo, bi, tri, quad, penta, hexa, oct, decha, several, a few, etc.

Also, numbers sometimes represent words, especially in programming (even though I am not a very experienced one.) For example, often in the basic setting files they will have the value =0 will stand for unlimited, or false.

 

[Nukeforyou]

The only time you can have zero of something is in a vacuum (space). And even then, you technically would call it "a vacuum", implying that there is "one" vacuum.

I know I'm focusing on the wrong part of your argument but, empty space isn't empty. It has particles and anti-particles that are constantly colliding and destroying each other.

I wish I could find my book to get a more accurate quote but that's what i remember reading.

 

[SGrahambo]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

 

[BourneGamer]

1-2-=-1 Now, since numbers are a contiuous and unbroken sequence. Tell me, What NUMBER is exactly between 1 and -1?

.1
.3
.02
.94873
-.67
-.9

Need more?

Okay, fine if you want semantics. What is the MEDIAN number of the line segment between 1 and -1?

I think you misunderstand me. The correct answer is 0, and anyone who tries to deny that is an idiot. The reason it's 0 is because 0 is a placeholder for the absence of value.

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up? 0 miles
How far away did you travel? 0 miles
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

Okay, I apologize for misunderstanding that particular post. But, as you just pointed out zero is the total displacement for that particular day. You just quantified your total displacement for the day. Zero, just as all numbers, only has a meaning within certain parameters. 'How many apples are there? Give me a number.' I don't know. 'How many apples are being held by me at this moment? Give me a number.' Within those parameters, the answer's zero.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Numbers represent the value of something. Zero represents the value of something that you have none of, showing that no displacement, motion or the like has occurred.

If you tried to remove zero as a number, I don't think that much of modern mathematics would continue to work properly.

 

[DarkRyter]

Numbers represent a value, and zero represent a lack of value.

So, yes, it's a number.

 

[Talshere]

Zero is a number which without most of our current understanding of technology, particles (see large hadron collider if you want a pop culture reference to where I'm going with this) and the universe in general simply could not exists. Most forms of advanced physics based technology simply cannot work without zero.

Also, vacuums don't exist. Not in the concept ppl assume. Common concept would have a vacuum as somewhere there is nothing. Nothing cannot excert force. Yet by placing a human in a vacume we can see the force it excerts on others. As such a vacum is filled. Current theories believe pairs of partials constantly are pulled from other dimensions which slam together upon entering our dimension and are again moved somewhere else.

 

[oktalist]

A number is whatever maths says it is. Maths is a completely made up system that just happens to be useful in describing the universe. The contention that zero cannot be used in describing the universe would not effect its numberishness, even if it were true.

Negative numbers, on the other hand, are just silly. Like their cousins the imaginary numbers and the quaternion elements. They're just the same as the non-negative numbers, but in different directions.

Also, in computing it is possible to have a negative zero, which is different from the more common positive zero.

EDIT: And without zero you cannot have infinity. It's a yin/yang thing. The Tao is everything and it is nothing.

 

[Necrofudge]

Apple particles? Fascinating! Are they similar to quarks? /Troll

I don't really think it's an argument of pure semantics to say that at a certain point in space there is NO MATTER. You can't just argue that "Well there's matter somewhere else thats nearby, herp de derp derp".

It IS however a disagreement of semantics when you claim that even though there is nothing there you can call it ONE Vacuum. We aren't talking about the number of vacuums and even if we were, how much mass does a vacuum take up anyway? ZERO perhaps?

If anything there is wrong, please point it out nicely. I scraped by through my physics and chemistry classes.

 

[willsham45]

What numbers can and are used always depends on the context and situation you are in. But I think you may be commenting more on whole numbers and none whole numbers as apose to is zero a number

If I said I have no money in my pocket then I have £0.00 in my pocket. I cannot say I have £0.003 due to dust and old train tickets.
Then again if I have £1.50 in my pocket I have the number of coins to make up a value of £1.50, probally a £1 coin and a 50p coin. I cannot have just under or below I cannot have £1.5004 or £1.49995 because a snall decrease or increase in metal will not stop the currency being a different value than its worth. I suppose it could be worth $2.31405 but you will never get that exact ammount and it does not really count. I guess if I have a IOU not I could have negitive pounds.

The same could be said with tins of beans in the house. I can have 1 tin 1.3464 tins, if one is open and i am being very specific but if I have no tines I have 0 tins, there is no half tin in the fridge nothing in the cuboard 0 tins of beans. But I cannot get negitive tins.

If we think temperature. If I set the fridge to 0°C. Is it going to be exacly 0°c no far from it. It will be just over or below +0.5°c or -0.0042°c.

But then I can never measure out 100g of sugar. I will always have just above or below. 100.048g or 99.957g. If I measure closly I could probally get 100.00124g or 100.00001458g if I had a good scales set. Then I just like I cannot have 0 I cannot have 100.

So in conclution some situations you can have 1 thing 2 things 0 things. others I cannot I will never be able to get just below or above.

...wow This was a bit pointless comment... oh well enjoy who ever is reading

 

[kouriichi]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

 

[gunningyoudown]

It is a Whole number and not a natural number so in other words it is a secondary "fake" number that is used in math to hold the spot of nothing and it could simply be also a --

 

[clankwise]

All numbers are concepts. Romans didnt have the number zero they just had a whole diffrent number. instead of 10 they had x 20 would be xx 21 xxi so 0 it is a number in our system. Remember numbers are all in the head and created by man.

 

[Gudrests]

Your using the wrong words to determine what your saying. That and there can be no Negative movement. movement is always either at nothing ( 0 ) or moving ( .00000001 - infinity in speed ) moving backwards would still be a positive movement just in a diffrent direction

 

[sapphireofthesea]

To point out as a physicist (I don't know if I have been beaten to it) but zero is not considered a number. You are right but in a different way. Zero is a concept used to signify nothing, appart from that it has no mathimatical workablity (divide it by anything and it does nothing, multiply by anything and it does nothing).

Now all of that said it is actually a very important concept and supposedly it's invention by the Arabs way back when resulted in the true start of mathimatics and engineering as best I know and remember. Don't quite remember why it is so important but it is very very important.

 

[runnerbelow]

Wow, this is really refusing to die isn't it?

I'm feeling like an ass so I'm going to act like one too. Let me be blunt (this post will probably be entirely buried but whatever) If zero was not a number... Don't you think that would have be realized years ago? We need to realize this, we're not brilliant ground-breaking mathematicians here. What this is that we are debating is what people define as a number.

Everyone who claims this is semantics is absolutely correct. Math is theory. If someone asks you what 1+1 is you don't ask them what their adding together. Math is a language all on it's own. Ultimately word examples don't matter, because in math, you are able to explain anything with the numbers that are in existence, and zero is one of them.

Can we all stop using semantics to make a point? This is math, it's theory, it does not need to have a purpose, it does not matter if it's redundant it's a number, it has a specific use, it has no value because that is the point.

 

[bz316]

I realize that I already know the outcome of this poll. Most of you are going to say yes. And I don't blame you, because that's what you've been taught.

But I'd like you to take a step back and examine it further. I claim that zero is more of a concept than a number. It is a placeholder to theorize the space between positive and negative.

The only time you can have zero of something is in a vacuum (space). And even then, you technically would call it "a vacuum", implying that there is "one" vacuum.

Say for example you have an apple. You then eat the apple. You still have one apple, it's just in a different locale. There is always at least 1 of something (that actually exists of course), even if it is not within your present sight. There are no planes in my front driveway, but there ARE planes somewhere else.

Some people might tell me then, "Well if you can't have zero of something, then you're saying you can't have negatives either." Well, I disagree.

For another example, say you travel -1 miles forwards. Well all that means is that you traveled 1 mile BACKWARDS. Positive and negative imply direction. Zero has no direction, and no value. If a number can be described as 'A figure used to represent value', and zero has no value, then logically zero would not be a number.

Of course, I understand the other side of the argument. If you don't have any apples around, then there must be 0 apples right? This starts bringing in semantics. Yes, I have 0 apples in my room at this current time. No, that does NOT make 0 a number. I can also say no apples are in my room. Is 'no' a number? Absolutely not.

Plus, consider the possibility that there may be, ONE SINGLE PARTICLE of an apple in my room, SOMEWHERE. Just one. It may be in the air, on my desk, on the wall, whatever. That's just .000000000000000000000000000000000001 apples or whatever, not zero.

That's the gist of my argument. If you have a challenge to offer me, I will try to counter it. Please consider this carefully before going "Of course it is, don't be a f***ing idiot."

And I swear to god, if someone uses the defense of [Begin idiot voice]"Well zero is on the number line, it has to be a number then"[End idiot voice], I will set a puppy on fire with my mind.

EDIT: Since people seem to be confused, I DO believe zero is a digit, but I do NOT believe it is a number. Just so we're clear. Also, here is another great example I came up with.

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up (relative to starting point)? 0 miles away
How far away did you travel? 0 miles away
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles away

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

Interesting points, but I can assure you, zero is a number. The best way to describe how it is a number is to describe it's value in a cartestian coordinate system. The problem is the belief that numbers only represent a discrete quantity of something. While zero does describe a discrete quantity (i.e. zero amount), it is also used in the evaluation the position of objects within a physical space-time. For example, the coordinate (0, 0, 0, 0), representing an object's absolute position within a three dimensional space at zero time. The parameters you use to define where exactly zero is within that physical realm can be totally arbitrary, but the number 0 does describe a component of the object's position in the universe.

 

[sapphireofthesea]

Your using the wrong words to determine what your saying. That and there can be no Negative movement. movement is always either at nothing ( 0 ) or moving ( .00000001 - infinity in speed ) moving backwards would still be a positive movement just in a diffrent direction

Could still work if you choose a particular direction to consider positive (needed in most simple physics). Movement is still directional and if it opposing to the intended direction (as dictated by an observer then one can have negative motion.
*Also to note, anytime an object slows down it does so due to negative motion (that is motion in the opposing direction to the present direction of travel).

Just being a brainiac atm ^^

 

[FluxCapacitor]

Im not being stubborn. im debating my side of the argument to the best of my ability.
But this arguement isnt about negatives. Its about 0. the argument of negative numbers existing is not relative.

But if you removed the 1 guy from he doggy door, you would just have a doggy door.
You by your logic, there would also be 0 garbage trucks in the doggy door, 0 fish in the doggy door, 0 explosives in the doggy door and 0 guys in the doggy door. techinically, there would be 0 everythings in the doggy door. Even 0 0's.

Its not a real number, because you cannot measure it in value. I cannot pay someone in 0 100 dollar bills. You cannot eat 0 real apples and survive.

in our universe, there is no such thing as 0, because something is always filling the space of 0.

If you removed the 1 guy from the 1 doggy door, there wouldent be 0 guys and 1 doggy door, there would be 1 doggy door flap and 1 doggy door. There would be something to take the guys place, even if it was just air.

Just the fact that you were able to clearly and concisely give multiple examples of what there was 0 of in the doggy door should mean that you understood the meaning and existence of zero. How could one use something that doesn't exist? Like I said, you (and most everyone else disputing 0's existence) keep trying to give zero (and other numbers) a material, physical form.
So my challenge to you (and everyone else that reads this) is to show us all a picture of "1". not the symbol "1" for the symbol is right there >> 1 <<. I just want a picture of 1. Show us all a picture of what 1 represents. And if you show a picture with 1 apple (which is not what I mean by a picture of 1, for it's just a picture of an apple), I will reply with a picture with zero apples. And you will no more be able to disprove that there are 0 apples in my picture than I would be able to disprove there is 1 apple in yours.

Well the problem is that your arguing a completely differnt subject.
Your arguing if all numbers are real or not.
this is about just 0 xD


The arguement im trying to make is that 0 is not a number, because it has no value. You cannot give me 0 $100 bills and have me say thanks. you can give me 1 $100 dollar bills and i would say thanks.

0 cannot be given or taken. 2-1=1, not 2-1. So it wouldent be 0 guys and a doggydoor, its just doggydoor. You wouldent include what you removed.

Sure, it is 0 guys and a doggydoggy door, but thats redundant. Its pointless to include it. Its pointless to include 0 of something. So the number 0 is not a number, because there is no accuall use for it.

It's easy to think of situations where objectively counting to zero can be as useful and meaningful as counting to another number because the thing being counted has still been defined, such as checking the hull of a boat for holes. If I count zero holes in my boat, and someone asks how many holes in my boat, I can say 'zero', and show them 0 holes in my boat by showing them my complete boat, with no holes. Once we define what we're counting outside of the count itself, then it becomes much clearer that zero is a number, like any other.

 

[Living Contradiction]

I read that blurb in the book "Fact or Fallacy" almost 2 decades ago.

Zero is a number, as it quantifies "null".

Hey, you hear that? That was the universe going "Ding! Correct!"

Folks, numbers are used for one reason: to quantify things. Be they probabilities, amounts of mass, sets of objects, or what have you, if you are dealing with a number, you have a quantity of something. And just as it is possible to have a quantity of something, the absence of that quantity needs to able to be expressed as well. Hence, zero.

For those of you who feel that it is not physically possible to measure zero, join me in a little experiment.

Hold up your right hand palm upwards (yes, let go of your mouse and hold it up).

Now think for a moment about the idea of the cupcake. Everyone knows what a cupcake is, right? Fluffy, cakey goodness in a palm-sized shape. Simple and easy to picture. Got that image in your mind? Peachy.

Now look at the palm of your right hand. You are observing zero cupcakes. The quantity of cupcake in your palm is zero.

This does not preclude the existence of cupcakes elsewhere but it does show that, for the purpose of measuring the amount of cupcake you possess in that hand right now, the number is zero. Hence, zero is a number.

Here's a good example for everyone. I think this may be a major point too.

Say you travel 3 miles north to work (+3). After 8 hours, you travel 3 miles south back to home(-3).

Where did you end up? 0 miles
How far away did you travel? 0 miles *Bzzt!*
What was the total distance traveled? 6 miles

You have traveled 6 miles, yet your position in space is 0, because you returned to your starting location. 6 != 0 yet you traveled both 6 miles and 0 miles. Can everyone understand where I'm coming from now?

Close, Crystal, but no cigar. You travelled three miles away from your starting point. Returning home does not negate the fact that you travelled three miles away, even if you are in the same place you were spatially eight hours before.

And while you were travelling (and waiting to travel back), time passed. While there is no more distance to quantify once you return home, there is certainly time to quantify, to say nothing of the wear and tear on your shoes and the rest of you.

Finally, this example assumes that you travelled in a straight line. Suppose you decided to stop at a cafe and buy a cupcake on your way home. Did you still travel three miles? What if the cafe wasn't on that straight line? Does that mean that you travelled negative one miles if you went a mile out of your way? And what about the cupcake? There's now more mass present in the place where you originally were, especially if you ate the cupcake on the way home. Does that influence the distance travelled or the fact that you left without something (no cupcake) and returned with it (cupcake, eaten or otherwise)?


Long story short (I know, too late), zero is a number.