Poll: Male reproductive rights

StarsintheBlood

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God almighty.
We have enough trouble with people who want to /prevent/ women from having abortions, and you want to /force/ them to do it?
No, just no.

Too drunk to be safe? Your problem.
Want to have sex? Prepare to own up.
 

Farther than stars

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Crono1973 said:
Yellowbeard said:
You can't eliminate a double standard when only one gender gives birth.
Yes you can, let's not forget that the most important legal opt out women have that men do not have is granted by the government. Either the government makes that option illegal or it makes available an option for men to have a legal opt out. The government is also the driving force behind child support.

The government creates problems and it can solve them either by backing off or by making another law that makes things more equal.
Yes, but the government also has a responsibility to remain constitutional and democratic. And as I explained in my rather long-winded post: it's against civil liberties to place the body of a woman under the constraints of the government, especially when forced abortions like these would also border on emotion torture from the woman's point of view.
 

Farther than stars

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StarsintheBlood said:
God almighty.
We have enough trouble with people who want to /prevent/ women from having abortions, and you want to /force/ them to do it?
No, just no.

Too drunk to be safe? Your problem.
Want to have sex? Prepare to own up.
Yes, I agree. I myself theorised that such an initiative simply isn't viable from various political angles.
 
May 5, 2010
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Look, if you have sex, you're accepting responsibility for any of the consequences. This includes a child, accidental or otherwise.

Now, as for the man having some say over whether or not the baby is born....I'm trying to see it. I really am. After all, the baby does belong to the man is some way, it seems like he SHOULD get a say. (This assumes all contraceptive actions were taken by both parties. That is to say, the baby is nobodies "fault")

But...I just can't see how to justify making a woman get an abortion and/or give birth if she doesn't want to. No matter what the man wants, it's still her damn body, and she has the right to do whatever she wants with it.

Now, once the baby is born, that's a different story. The man can be as involved as much as he damn well pleases. Basically, if you don't want to look after the kid, you don't have to. As long as you're OK knowing you have a child out there somewhere. It's not perfect system, but hey, neither is conception.
 

Navvan

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wolas3214 said:
It should be illegal for a woman to give birth to a child without a signed consent form from the biological father. When a man doesn't want a child, and the woman uses her religion as an excuse to not get an abortion (or any other reason) children are born without a loving home with two financially stable parents. Snip
This really isn't a controversial issue in the way stated. If you truly believe in that form of male reproductive rights you're being purposely naive. The problem with it is that you're MRR directly violate multiple rights the female holds. Namely a right of control over her own body.

The argument about being able to waive financial obligation to the child has a bit more weight, however it has one crucial flaw. It violates the rights of the child and not the female. It is certainly abused by some females and should be more carefully regulated, but the reason it exists is solid enough that I think we can agree that it should exist in some form. You even state that the child should be able to live in a financially stable home.

The fact is if anyone takes an action that has a risk attached to it. Don't complain that it isn't fair if it doesn't pan out. The risks are known before committing the action. The same principle can be applied as with speeding. You desire to get to you destination quicker but have the risk of increased danger and a potential ticket. Its just on a larger scale

If you're worried about impregnating somebody there are plenty of risk reducers such as condoms, spermicide and having sex with someone on birth control. While it my kill the mood you can always find out prior to having sex what the woman would do if she gets pregnant and if it lines up with what you wish to happen.

Long story short, you can't have two conflicting rights, and the right that is considered more fundamental will always win. Right over ones own body trumps right over genetic material (that doesn't exist). Rights of a child to a stable life (including financial) trumps right to personal finances.

gamezombieghgh said:
Interesting debate, does anybody know if the man has to pay child support for the child they didn't want? I think that would be fair
Yes they have to pay child support for the child's expenses unless another arrangement is made between the parents. The purpose it to ensure that the child has proper financial backing so that it can be cared for properly. Proper diet/medical care/clothing ect.... It is considered a child right. Exceptions can be made depending on the financial status of the individuals involved.
 

Epona

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Farther than stars said:
Crono1973 said:
Yellowbeard said:
You can't eliminate a double standard when only one gender gives birth.
Yes you can, let's not forget that the most important legal opt out women have that men do not have is granted by the government. Either the government makes that option illegal or it makes available an option for men to have a legal opt out. The government is also the driving force behind child support.

The government creates problems and it can solve them either by backing off or by making another law that makes things more equal.
Yes, but the government also has a responsibility to remain constitutional and democratic. And as I explained in my rather long-winded post: it's against civil liberties to place the body of a woman under the constraints of the government, especially when forced abortions like these would also border on emotion torture from the woman's point of view.
Abortion was not legal until 1973 (I think), it isn't a constitutional issue and many states are moving to limit it. However, I am not in favor of taking away abortion or forcing abortion, the other option is to give men a legal opt-out. That is what I favor.

Did you know that child support has been ruled unconstitutional in some states because it treats fathers living in the home differently than fathers living outside the home?
 

Sariteiya

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Two things, first, as has been said, if you don't want a woman pregnant, don't have sex with her.


Number two, just because you fornicate with a woman, doesn't mean you own her. A woman has a legal right to what happens in her body. After insemination, you've given up your right to any control over her reproductive rights.
 

Pyramid Head

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Sorry but i won't try to discuss it. Just thinking of the type of clusterfuck that would occur trying to enforce regulations like that gives me a headache.
 

karamazovnew

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Nope... just put a condom and be careful who you have sex with. She's got a lot more to loose out of this, so it's her choice. But in this case, it should be just her responsibility. She's as much to blame for getting pregnant as you are.

By the way, a tip: f*ck anti-conception pills. The side-effects are horrible in the long run. Don't go near the stuff, just use condoms.
 

Epona

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karamazovnew said:
Nope... just put a condom and be careful who you have sex with. She's got a lot more to loose out of this, so it's her choice. But in this case, it should be just her responsibility. She's as much to blame for getting pregnant as you are.

By the way, a tip: f*ck anti-conception pills. The side-effects are horrible in the long run. Don't go near the stuff, just use condoms.
Do tell, what is all this that she has to lose that a man doesn't? She has to carry the baby for 9 months (well, she doesn't have to but you get the point)? That's it.

Now let's look at her gains:

- free money for 18 years just for having a baby. This will be government enforced.
- free medical
- free food
- free or reduced cost housing

Now let's look at his gains:

- a child he didn't want. Unlike her, his choices ended after sex.

Well, I can't think of anything else for this column. Maybe you can.
 

Dr.Nick

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You do realize that the whole biological point of sex is to have offspring? If you want to have sex then you need to take responsibility and acknowledge the fact that there is a risk that the female will get pregnant. You need to take responsibility and say, "Ok, I want to have sex and I know there's a risk of getting pregnant and if pregnancy does happen I will do my duty as a parent." And that goes for both the male and the female. That child has as much right to live as anyone once it is conceived. You can't have sex and not take responsibility. Too many people just treat sex like an act that has no consequence and place only blame when someone gets pregnant. If you don't want to risk having a baby then don't have vaginal sex (or whatever the term is). There's plenty of other ways you can get off with your partner.

And no condoms aren't a good work around because there's still a chance they will break.
 

Epona

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Dr.Nick said:
You do realize that having the whole point of sex is to have offspring? If you want to have sex then you need to take responsibility and acknowledge the fact that there is a risk that the female will get pregnant. You need to take responsibility and say, "Ok, I want to have sex and I know there's a risk of her getting pregnant and if she does I will do my duty as a parent." That child has as much right to live as anyone once it is conceived. You can't have sex and not take responsibility. Too many people just treat sex like an act that has no consequence and place only blame when someone gets pregnant. If you don't want to risk having a baby then don't have vaginal sex (or whatever the term is). There's plenty of other ways you can get off with your partner.

And no condoms aren't a good work around because there's still a chance they will break.
So you are against abortion then?
 

Rex Fallout

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Naal said:
Rex Fallout said:
... So I am not worth Shit and my mother should have murdered me because of her mistake? Thanks pal, needed that ego boost after the week I've had.
I'm with you there, brother. My birth father (whom I have never even met) wanted my mom to get an abortion with my older sister and I. When I was three months old she left him and didn't ask for anything. She did it all on her own.

OP: You must have had a bad childhood or met some pretty bad women to classify all of us as such. Yeah, there are a few bad apples but don't let them spoil the bunch.
Hmm. I havent spoken to my biological father in years, he sort of disowned me. I've got a step dad that is surprisingly very nice who has sort of replaced him but still.

But OT: I dont like this idea. Now first off I just want to say that Christians, (as far as I know and I happen to be one) don't ever say you shouldnt enjoy sex. They just say that it should be between two people who love each other very much, to the point where normally they would be married. There is absolutely nothing wrong with enjoying sex, if you read the bible thats part of the reason God made it. The other reason? to help strengthen the bond between man and woman. How carelessly the OP throws out insults. Ignorant ones at that.

And I dont want my sex life to become a contract. (not that I have one) but If I were to have one, I'm not going to sign a stupid contract. If I get a chick pregnant that child is MY responsibility. Just cause she's the one giving birth means nothing, we consensually(sp?) had sex, and we should pay, not the child, and not just the mother. You seem to naturally assume that all men who happen to get women pregnant before marriage are assholes and have no moral code.

Oh and This isnt one of America's more pressing concerns of the moment. I'd like to focus on that national debt first. Or giving better rights to citizens. Or getting rid of Obamacare. Or getting rid of our dependence on China. And foreign fuels. Hell there are ALOT of things ahead of this.
 

StarsintheBlood

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Crono1973 said:
karamazovnew said:
Nope... just put a condom and be careful who you have sex with. She's got a lot more to loose out of this, so it's her choice. But in this case, it should be just her responsibility. She's as much to blame for getting pregnant as you are.

By the way, a tip: f*ck anti-conception pills. The side-effects are horrible in the long run. Don't go near the stuff, just use condoms.
Do tell, what is all this that she has to lose that a man doesn't? She has to carry the baby for 9 months (well, she doesn't have to but you get the point)? That's it.

Now let's look at her gains:

- free money for 18 years just for having a baby. This will be government enforced.
- free medical
- free food
- free or reduced cost housing

Now let's look at his gains:

- a child he didn't want. Unlike her, his choices ended after sex.

Well, I can't think of anything else for this column. Maybe you can.
Sorry, I find myself a little confused. Is this hypothetical, because I've never heard of a mother getting all that free stuff.
 

hallow eyes

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It should be illegal for people to propose ridiculas laws limiting peoples freedoms and personal choices, luckily we live in a country/countries where people are allowed to propse ideas that seem primitive and backwards in a modern society. Also this kind of thing has been tried before.
 

karamazovnew

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Crono1973 said:
Legislation is different from country to country and so is the status of women in society. In my country, unless you're married, as a father you don't have to pay shit. You can simply refuse to sign the birth certificate. End of story. She won't have the money to get a DNA test or enough money for legal help, which could drag on for years and years. And for a young career woman today, having a child is almost suicide. Oh, and don't even get me started on how the state helps young mothers or forces companies to take care of their employees.
 

Epona

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StarsintheBlood said:
Crono1973 said:
karamazovnew said:
Nope... just put a condom and be careful who you have sex with. She's got a lot more to loose out of this, so it's her choice. But in this case, it should be just her responsibility. She's as much to blame for getting pregnant as you are.

By the way, a tip: f*ck anti-conception pills. The side-effects are horrible in the long run. Don't go near the stuff, just use condoms.
Do tell, what is all this that she has to lose that a man doesn't? She has to carry the baby for 9 months (well, she doesn't have to but you get the point)? That's it.

Now let's look at her gains:

- free money for 18 years just for having a baby. This will be government enforced.
- free medical
- free food
- free or reduced cost housing

Now let's look at his gains:

- a child he didn't want. Unlike her, his choices ended after sex.

Well, I can't think of anything else for this column. Maybe you can.
Sorry, I find myself a little confused. Is this hypothetical, because I've never heard of a mother getting all that free stuff.
Really? It happens all the time. Not much more I can say about it, look it up for yourself and see the world of poor single mothers.
 

Raesvelg

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Again, the easiest, most fair solution to this particular conundrum is to have the responsibility and the power fall on the same person, rather than be split rather unequally between the two parties.

I'm not arguing that a man should be able to force a woman to have/not have an abortion. That's... excessive, and unrealistic.

But currently, in most countries where abortion is legal, the woman has the power to terminate the pregnancy at will... whereas the man simply has the responsibility to support the child whether he wants it or not.

It would be arguably fair if the man had the power to waive parental rights and responsibilities, at which point the woman could make the choice based on her own resources, not the ones she's assuming she can get from the father.

And again, for the thousandth time: It takes two people to have a kid.

Someday, in a perfect world, we'll have artificial wombs, and we can just have the kid transferred over to one of those to be given to the parent who wants him, rather than stick one or the other with something they regret.

Or, you know, we can just ban abortion outright and women can learn to keep their legs together.

Because that's pretty much the solution I'm hearing for men from at least half of you.
 

Epona

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karamazovnew said:
Crono1973 said:
Legislation is different from country to country and so is the status of women in society. In my country, unless you're married, as a father you don't have to pay shit. You can simply refuse to sign the birth certificate. End of story. She won't have the money to get a DNA test or enough money for legal help, which could drag on for years and years. And for a young career woman today, having a child is almost suicide. Oh, and don't even get me started on how the state helps young mothers or forces companies to take care of their employees.
In the US things are as I have described them. It is actually beneficial to kick the father to the curb as it raises their benefits. A father living in the home means that his income reduces her benefits while she can still get his income (child support) with more benefits if he isn't living in the home. This also has the benefit of giving her complete control over the child and not being tied down sexually.

This is reality and it's why men are getting fed up.