Poll: More punishing; Death Penalty or Life in Prison

Ryotknife

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DerangedHobo said:
Ryotknife said:
yea well he has years to find peace. It took Timothy Mcveigh 4 years to be executed (the average is usually 27 years, but cases like these get fast tracked), plenty of time to repent or whathaveyou. If he squanders that time, well thats on him.
...If you're going to keep him in prison for a shit ton of time anyway, why execute him? Why cross that line? You want it televised and monetized at the same time?
eh? who is talking about monetizing or televising it? Are you even listening to yourself?

It is like you want ISIS to kill anyone they dont like

P.S. the pink part was not serious, just illustrating a point.
 

DerangedHobo

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kyp275 said:
No, you literally started by throwing shit at people, the posts don't lie.
Might want to work on your reading comprehension, I just said that after I shit in my hand and throw it, I don't talk about how I have 'etiquette' when I'm throwing my shit.

Punishment, sense of justice, permanent elimination of unwanted element from society etc.
If you get a sense of justice out of seeing someone else get murdered then you, to me, are an unwanted element of society. See what I did there? Who decides what is an 'unwanted element'? A murderer? A Rapist? A Thief? A Jaywalker? Fuck it, kill 'em all. You do not take the 'undesirable' and then commit an atrocity in the name of justice. That is not justice, that is hypocrisy, a hypocrisy that most likely no man on earth can claim to be qualified to green light.

Not to mention the idea of the fallibility of the justice system as well as the fact that humans are completely fallible. If the death sentence exists then the idea of repenting or making up for your mistakes becomes a moot point because "fuck it, just execute them".

I was under the assumption that the entire point of the justice system was to be better than those who commit acts of violence and crime, not this dark ages bullshit that you propose.

Don't like it? feel free to move. Can't move? too bad. Welcome to the real world, where the Universe doesn't revolve around your existence.
How about you move the fuck out of this country and go over to the shit-holes that revel in this sort of barbarity? See that, see what I did there? I bet you probably won't.

Already went over this above. Morality is indeed subjective - which changes absolutely nothing. Not sure what Shariah law have to do with anything here, if you meant to use that as an example of "bad laws imposed by society", I would agree, but only because my own subjective morality disagrees with the values imposed by Shariah, not because there's some Universal Scale on which my morality scored higher than Shariah's.
So you score other people's legal systems as bad and agree that your worldview is subjective yet believe that it should be implemented (or continued to be implemented) on this wide scale? That's... powerful.

Edit: I should also say this now but the concept of "free-will" is also a pretty murky line. What if a society found your views to be repugnant and decided to drag you to the back of the wood-shed and old-yeller you? Hey, it was justified, you would most likely spread the 'toxic ideas' that you have.

Or, let's put it this way, you have an anti-natalist. Now this anti-natalist hates life and he believes that life is pain and life is suffering. Now this Anti-Natalist, being the humanitarian sort, decides to implement the death penalty to anyone that subjects another living-being to the horrors of reality (See: Having Children). See what I'm getting at here?
 

Ryotknife

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DerangedHobo said:
Ryotknife said:
eh? who is talking about monetizing or televising it? Are you even listening to yourself?
I was implying that your nonchalant nature towards the sanctioned death of another human-being ("plenty of time to repent or whathaveyou. If he squanders that time, well thats on him.") made you the type of sadist that would probably televise and monetize off the death of others. Hell, if you're going to kill him anyway, might get some good programming out of it right?
okay, thats it im done. Keep belittling everyone who is different from you in any way shape or form.

P.S. im anti death penalty.
 

kyp275

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DerangedHobo said:
Might want to work on your reading comprehension, I just said that after I shit in my hand and throw it, I don't talk about how I have 'etiquette' when I'm throwing my shit.
At this point I'm starting to think you may just like to hurl personal insult at people.

If you get a sense of justice out of seeing someone else get murdered then you, to me, are an unwanted element of society. See what I did there? Who decides what is an 'unwanted element'? A murderer? A Rapist? A Thief? A Jaywalker? Fuck it, kill 'em all. You do not take the 'undesirable' and then commit an atrocity in the name of justice. That is not justice, that is hypocrisy, a hypocrisy that most likely no man on earth can claim to be qualified to green light.
Feel free to feel that way if you want, unfortunately for you my viewpoint is not in the minority here:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

This would indicated that you're part of the 33%, if anything, one can argue that in this society you are the unwanted element. As for who actually decides - if you had read my post, you should've seen that I had already addressed this - the society does. You can argue whether that's justified or not in your worldview, but the world doesn't give a shit about your world view, unless you have the ability to force said worldview on others, that's just how human society functions at the moment.

I was under the assumption that the entire point of the justice system was to be better than those who commit acts of violence and crime, not this dark ages bullshit that you propose.
It is, it simply operates on a value system you apparently disagree with. Nor did I "propose" this system - it already exists.

How about you move the fuck out of this country and go over to the shit-holes that revel in this sort of barbarity? See that, see what I did there? I bet you probably won't.
Sigh, your petty insults are not nearly as witty as you may think they are. I'm sorry you find reality disagreeable, unfortunately I'm not responsible for the existence of said reality.

So you score other people's legal systems as bad and agree that your worldview is subjective yet believe that it should be implemented (or continued to be implemented) on this wide scale? That's... powerful.
Considering there's no objective worldview, any system implement would be inherently subjective to the culture that holds it. I hate to break it to you, but that Sun is going to go red giant and wipe out the planet regardless of whether the Earth is ruled by a society operating under no death penalty or Shariah law.
 

DerangedHobo

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Ryotknife said:
okay, thats it im done. Keep belittling everyone who is different from you in any way shape or form.
Sorry, its a habit, I just really find your worldview repugnant. I mean, I can't talk to a racist without throwing a bit of ad-hominem his way. Seriously, imagine if I was advocating the genocide of the human race for shits and giggles and then try having a civil discussion with me.

Edit: If you really are anti-death penalty, then I have to question your comments about people rotting in prison. It was probably you being facetious and if that is the fact then I apologize. I don't want to point ad-hominem in places accidentally.
 

DerangedHobo

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kyp275 said:
At this point I'm starting to think you may just like to hurl personal insult at people.
Eh, I get my kicks. Still, I don't advocate the death of my fellow man under some perverse sense of justice so er... there is that.

Feel free to feel that way if you want, unfortunately for you my viewpoint is not in the minority here:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/1606/death-penalty.aspx

This would indicated that you're part of the 33%, if anything, one can argue that in this society you are the unwanted element. As for who actually decides - if you had read my post, you should've seen that I had already addressed this - the society does. You can argue whether that's justified or not in your worldview, but the world doesn't give a shit about your world view, unless you have the ability to force said worldview on others, that's just how human society functions at the moment.
Man.. that would be really shocking... if I lived in the US. But by all means, the idea that you should "love it or leave it" is a repugnant worldview which just perpetuates the circle jerking degenerate society that you inhabit. So enjoy being part of the pack man, good job.

It is, it simply operates on a value system you apparently disagree with. Nor did I "propose" this system - it already exists.
But my system is not based on some sort of taste thing like "oh I don't like dubstep, I prefer classical". No, it is based on three simple ideas:

Firstly the idea that to commit a crime (the crime of murder) as a punishment is flawed logic.

Secondly the idea that all man is flawed and to segregate the 'undesirables' and remove them is an easily abused system.

Thirdly the fallible nature of the death penalty means that at least 1 individual would be killed for a crime they did not commit. An innocent, an innocent which was put to death on a system of "justice" which you supported. This, by proxy, would make you a murderer. Manslaughter at the very least. That does not make any sense.

Sigh, your petty insults are not nearly as witty as you may think they are. I'm sorry you find reality disagreeable, unfortunately I'm not responsible for the existence of said reality.
Oh they don't need to be witty, I'm getting my kicks regardless.

I hate to break it to you, but that Sun is going to go red giant and wipe out the planet regardless of whether the Earth is ruled by a society operating under no death penalty or Shariah law.
You're bringing a Nihilistic worldview in to the argument to justify your subjective rule set. That's a moot point, you cannot continue with such an assertion because under that logic, all justice and progress is moot.
 

Riddle78

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Spending the rest of your existence in prison is a MUCH worse fate than simple execution. However,execution is order of magnitude,some would even say infinitely,cheaper. People have to pay for the prisoner's stay in state custody. Meanwhile,if you want to execute someone,you just have to pay someone to put a 7.62 round through their head.
 

kyp275

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DerangedHobo said:
Eh, I get my kicks.
Well, at least you admitted that you're just here to insult people for "your kicks".

You're bringing a Nihilistic worldview in to the argument to justify your subjective rule set. That's a moot point, you cannot continue with such an assertion because under that logic, all justice and progress is moot.
What, is your rule set somehow not subjective? Have we missed the memo where you were appointed Overlord of the Universe?

Nor do I think all justice and progress is moot - they have intrinsic worth to us because human civilizations value them. I just don't have the frankly baffling expectations that they hold some sort of universal value or worth to anything but human civilizations.
 

Jaeke

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Well, ideally, Life in Prison is a "worse" fate... but by today's standards the average prisoner doesn't exactly have it all that bad unless they're in a pretty severe situation, which to be fair, is probable if the sentence was serious enough to qualify for Life.

Me personally, I'd like to think I'd be okay with a Death Penalty, if I were to hypothetically do something or at least be accused of something that serious, but I'd probably take Life.
 

Saltyk

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ccggenius12 said:
Saltyk said:
(do the guys serving life ever even have people investigate whether they actually did it or advocate for them?).
Yes, particularly in cases based on eye-witness testimony and circumstantial evidence. Forensic technology is improving rapidly, and eye-witness testimony is worse than useless the vast majority of the time. Who would have thought that individuals with their own personal agendas, and cops pressured to punish SOMEONE, ANYONE for the crime could possibly be anything but perfect, eh?
They do? Good. I've only ever heard of people investigating the cases of guys on Death Row. Which always made one argument against the death penalty a bit sour for me. "We don't want to sentence an innocent person to death."

Yeah, but sentencing an innocent person to Life is so much better? Especially if no one is even investigating whether the guys serving Life actually did it, then they can easily spend lifetimes in jail for a crime they didn't commit. Honestly, I hate the idea of punishing innocent people in general. Life in prison isn't really much different from Death, if they spend decades in jail.

Knowing that some people actually do investigate the cases of people serving Life makes it at least a little better. Still feel like punishing innocent people should be avoided regardless, though. Even a conviction that doesn't carry a life sentence can hurt them.
 

Kopikatsu

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Death is the ultimate release of pain and suffering.

Life without parole is prolonged torment until the sweet release of death.

Death is more merciful than a lifetime of torture. Safer for everyone else, too.

Funfact: If you executed everyone on death row in the US today, it would still be less deaths than vehicle accidents for that same day.
 

DerangedHobo

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kyp275 said:
Well, at least you admitted that you're just here to insult people for "your kicks".
Well, you're sorely mistaken if I ever thought I could change your mind.

Have we missed the memo where you were appointed Overlord of the Universe?
Hey, at least I'm not the LUV IT OR LEAVE IT guy.

Nor do I think all justice and progress is moot - they have intrinsic worth to us because human civilizations value them. I just don't have the frankly baffling expectations that they hold some sort of universal value or worth to anything but human civilizations.
The point was that saying "well we're all going to die anyway regardless of our current subjective standing" is essentially the equivalent of taking a shit mid sentence. As a Nihilist, I recognize the fact that bringing bringing the fact that "oh it'll all end anyway" into an argument grinds it to a halt, there is no where you can go with that because on that basis you could make an argument for anything and any sort of retort against said argument would be "well it don't matter objectively".
 

loa

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In this unrealistic scenario completely divorced from reality and reason in which we remove the death row, assume a 0% error ratio of conviction and take punishment masturbation instead of rehabilitation as the sole reason for a conviction for granted so that the only factor that matters left is "which is more punishing?", life in prison because you removed the waiting time of the death penalty.
If i have an appointment for the dentist or a surgery, the visit itself, getting it over with, isn't half as bad as waiting for it while the mind paints pictures colored by expectation.

What is this good for though?
You can't apply the results of this to the real world in any useful fashion.

By the way I like how you snap reality in half just to preemptively counter most common arguments against the death penalty.
 

CardinalPiggles

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Prison is worse for the criminal for sure, but the death penalty is better for providing closure for the victims.

Personally I think the victims should decide, after the judge lays out the options.

And just to be clear, I don't think the death penalty should be applicable to anyone if they haven't murdered. Eye for an eye, that kind of thing.
 

Nazulu

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I said the death penalty, because from what I've heard about prison, it doesn't seem as bad as it used to be, including it seems you can still make friends and have a hobby to keep yourself busy, kind of adapting. Plus, from what we can't say, many would fear death more than anything, looking their worst in their last moments, something none of us would ever want. Including some would rather a chance to get a chance to leave one day, even it's minimal, so they would be holding onto that hope for awhile.
 

kyp275

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DerangedHobo said:
Well, you're sorely mistaken if I ever thought I could change your mind.
Never been my thought, just pointing out that you at least admitted you're only here to insult people.

Hey, at least I'm not the LUV IT OR LEAVE IT guy.
Says the AGREE WITH ME OR YOU'RE A MONGOLOID SCUM! guy. BTW, forgot to congratulate you on your use of racial slurs, definitely helps you in cementing your position as the supreme moral authority on here.


The point was that saying "well we're all going to die anyway regardless of our current subjective standing" is essentially the equivalent of taking a shit mid sentence. As a Nihilist, I recognize the fact that bringing bringing the fact that "oh it'll all end anyway" into an argument grinds it to a halt, there is no where you can go with that because on that basis you could make an argument for anything and any sort of retort against said argument would be "well it don't matter objectively".
Good for you, and also completely misrepresenting what I said. I'm not a nihilist - I don't believe in the "oh it'll all end anyway so it doesn't matter" argument, nor did I make that argument. I'm pretty sure I've said that subjective views have intrinsic worth merely for the fact that they matter to SOMEONE - recognizing that in reverse said subjective view have no value to those outside of that bubble hardly makes me a nihilist.
 

RJ 17

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Hmmm...what do I think is the "worse fate"? I'd have to go with Life in Prison...but that's only the situation if you're the type of person who won't get institutionalized. There's a type of criminal out there that honestly prefers prison over standard life, as such any time they get out on parole they immediately go back to committing crimes so that they can be sent back to jail. I believe the term is "institutionalized."

My personal preference, though, would be the death penalty...mainly because I don't like the thought of tax payer dollars being used to feed and house some of the worst criminals in the system. "But executions are damn expensive!" Indeed they are...but not as expensive as taking care of a 20 year old (in this particular case) for the rest of his life.
 

DanteRL

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Recently there was the case of a Brazillian imprisoned in the US. He killed 3 or 4 people and was given Death Penalty. His lawyers were able to "reduce" it to life sentence, but now, some years later, the guy is asking for justice to go back on their decision, and give him death penalty again, because he can't stand the idea of spending the rest of his life in jail, doing nothing.

Of course that now he turned to religious relief, and believes that in doing so, he will be in heavens and such. But still, the guy would rather die then spend more time in prison. So, there's that.
 

DerangedHobo

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kyp275 said:
Says the AGREE WITH ME OR YOU'RE A MONGOLOID SCUM! guy.
Hey, if you believe that putting people to death out of vengeance is 'justice' then you can be classified (by certain people, at least) as mongoloid scum. Now, I never claimed to have solidarity in my character but I will claim, in this instance, to be above those that do hold that viewpoint from a moral standing.

BTW, forgot to congratulate you on your use of racial slurs, definitely helps you in cementing your position as the supreme moral authority on here.
Racial slurs? Ahem:

mongoloid

n.
A member of the racial classification of humanity composed of peoples native to North Asia, East Asia, Pacific Oceania, and Greenland, as well as their diaspora in other parts of the world.
n.
Someone with Down syndrome.
n.
Idiot, retard ? general term of abuse, due to association with Down syndrome.

See those last two? Yeahhh... Also the context is all wrong even if I was using it as a racial slur. You come from freedomland itself, not Asia. So good job with that insult, I'll also play a handy little youtube clip for you:



Good for you, and also completely misrepresenting what I said. I'm not a nihilist - I don't believe in the "oh it'll all end anyway so it doesn't matter" argument, nor did I make that argument. I'm pretty sure I've said that subjective views have intrinsic worth merely for the fact that they matter to SOMEONE - recognizing that in reverse said subjective view have no value to those outside of that bubble hardly makes me a nihilist.
But that is a subjective view. Last time I checked, the statement of Nihilism was that there is no objective value or scale, it is all from within our subjective paradigm, any meaning or value we gleam is subjective. Nihilism isn't WE BELIEVE IN NOTHING LEBOOSKI.

Also good job on responding to the actual points of my argument but whatever, let's just ignore those posts of coherency, instead stooping to the lows which your opponent admitted to.

Edit: Phrasing
 

happyninja42

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I think the death penalty is the worse punishment, because everything ends for the person at that point.

Even with life in prison, a person can still do things. They can still learn, and grow, and potentially change, possibly trying to become a better person. If you're dead, none of that can happen, you are just removed from the grand equation.