Poll: New forum rules - Yay or Nay?

[SummerMcLovin]

Just checking the changes...

If the health bar is the only change, being a quiet good boy makes it fine for me!

 

[Dastardly]

There has historically been confusion as to why one person was banned for something that another person "got away with", when ban history is always the reason. Now there shouldn't be confusion.

I can really see this, and I hate that near-sightedness is causing people not to. This is a move to make the moderation process more transparent, so that people can better understand it, and in doing so more easily avoid penalties. Instead, people that really just don't feel they should be responsible for their behavior are trying to present it as unforgiving or unfair.

If you're really Randian, then you'd have no problem with us setting whatever rules we chose, as the forums are our domain and as the owners we are free to set whatever guidelines we like. Anyone that doesn't like the rules, of course, is completely free to leave (and even set up their own forums, with their own rules). That's the purest form of capitalism.

Ouch. Nice riposte!

Here's the deal: we don't want to "be educated". As a company, and a group of people, we have officially decided that we find it creepy, and we don't want it on our site. Spinwhiz, and the guidelines he has set up, are just the representation of that. You happen to disagree, and you're welcome to, but in the end it's not your feelings on the topic that matter here, it's ours. If you want to discuss it, I'm sure you can find some place on the internet that will welcome you, but it won't be on our forums.

While this can occasionally be a tough one, I'm also completely understanding of this. There are some topics you just don't want your forums showing up in the search results for, right? It's not about whether or not a topic is worth discussion. It's about whether or not this community, as it stands, came here for that sort of discussion, and is thus prepared to maturely engage in that sort of discussion. If they're not, all it can really lead to is a flame war and tons of whack-a-mole for the forum staff. Better to put that topic off for another setting better equipped for such a specialized discussion.

Don't forget, we know what kind of people will have a problem under the new system and end up getting banned because of it. We expect those people to get banned. It's not something that we didn't already think about.

Well that sounds alot like we don't need you faithful forum goers of the escapist, our website can be successful on our own doesn't it?

There's a difference between being a consistent forum user, and being a faithful forum user. If I show up at some club's meetings, and half the time I'm just heckling other members... well, it doesn't matter how regular my attendance is. I'm not a 'faithful' member. Firstly, I'm not contributing. I'm just taking up a seat. Secondly, that kind of behavior may actually be driving away potential contributing members.

What I get from Virgil's reply is that he understands the "revolutionaries gonna revolt." If people think they really can get "everyone" to get on board with this, let them try. It's not going to happen, and it's not going to bring down the site. The Escapist =/= the forums. That's like expecting McDonald's to close just because they stop selling the McRib--it's one thing they do.

Besides, consider this:

- You might demonstrate that most of the replies in this thread are of dissenting opinion as regards the new rules.
- You might (mistakenly) take that as a sign that the "majority" has spoken.
- Consider that the only people posting in this thread, really, are the ones with very strong opinions. Usually, when people have very strong opinions, the dissenters speak first. People who strongly agree have nothing to "defend."
- And then consider all of the many, many forum members who haven't even touched the topic. They're too busy just enjoying the forums the same as always. With no problems whatsoever, and no reason to complain about rules they don't plan on breaking.

These new consequences are like a cliff. The best way to avoid falling off? Stop seeing how close to the cliff you can play. Play somewhere else. It's like some bizarre game people want to play of "How much of a jerk can I be before it's too much?" That kind of person is useless, even if they don't cross the line, because they spend all their time looking in the wrong direction--toward the damned cliff.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Don't forget, we know what kind of people will have a problem under the new system and end up getting banned because of it. We expect those people to get banned. It's not something that we didn't already think about.

If I may make a suggestion...

I think the health bar could do with a post count/offence ratio system.

For example, if someone has 30 posts and 3 warnings, they are more likely to be a trouble maker than someone who has 5000 posts and 3 warnings. The bar could fade backwards according to how often the user posts, this way generally good community members won't be suspended because of silly things they did 3 years ago.

 

[Spinwhiz]

Well I just don't think that's right. I've only been in trouble with the mods 3 times and I'm already out 5 out of my 8 chances.

Then send in an appeal and see what happens.

Appeal?!?! With what? I said for each of those in infractions, I deserved what I got. I had broken the rules and I served my punishment peacefully and without complaint. Now it seems I'm being punished for them AGAIN however. I fail to see how that's justified.

You aren't being punished again, you are being held accountable for your actions, just as you were before. Did you think your previous infractions disappeared? They never disappear. We always use them to tell us what the next step in the penalty process is, regardless of time. Now we've just let you see it.

Then what, pray do tell, is the point? If you were always gonna ban people after 8 warnings for minor offences that were each 3 months apart, then why even instate this system and arbitrarily make all crimes equal?

Strikes are chances to change, regardless of what you have done. If the "crime" is bad enough, we have the ability to suspend right off the bat, raising the level to red. So, people have 8 chances to learn our rules. They do something worth a suspension, they will get it. Once they reach that level, it stays at that level.

 

[Spinwhiz]

I find it rather unfair that there's absolutely no way to clear your record. Everybody slips up now and then. I'm usually the first to advocate harsh punishment for infractions, but this is ridiculous. With harsh punishments should come rewards for good behavior. So if you've not committed any infractions for a certain amount of time, your 'forum heath meter' should go back down.

Nobody should be able to slip up 8 times and being given more chances. If anyone can't learn how to be respectful and follow our rules after what is pretty much 8 infractions, they shouldn't be here.

Not even if the infractions are upwards of 6 months to year apart? Maybe even 2 years or more? 'Cause clearly if that's the case, that's not a person who's out to cause trouble; that's a person who just got a little carried away one day.

That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.

Ok, but what really gets me is I didn't get the four warnings and I'm already in the yellow zone. Under the old system I've received mod wrath, I think, 3 times, 1 probation, and 2 suspensions. I'm not going to pretend I didn't deserve them, 'cause I did. I let myself get carried away, what gets me is how does that translate into 5 warnings under the new system?
Edit: esp. since there's no chance for redemption.

Anyone with more than 2 probations (even suspensions) automatically received a yellow. Some people got lucky, having more than 2 suspensions and not getting a red automatically or even getting permabanned immediately. This would obviously be in bad taste, so we didn't do that. If you received 1 probation or less (warnings), you will be in the green. On a rare occasion where you had 4 or 5 warnings plus a probation, you will also be in the yellow probation category.

Well I just don't think that's right. I've only been in trouble with the mods 3 times and I'm already out 5 out of my 8 chances.

Then send in an appeal and see what happens.

Appeal?!?! With what? I said for each of those in infractions, I deserved what I got. I had broken the rules and I served my punishment peacefully and without complaint. Now it seems I'm being punished for them AGAIN however. I fail to see how that's justified.

You aren't being punished again, you are being held accountable for your actions, just as you were before. Did you think your previous infractions disappeared? They never disappear. We always use them to tell us what the next step in the penalty process is, regardless of time. Now we've just let you see it.

Yeah, I get that. But how does my 3 isolated incidents translate into 5 out of 8 chances before permaban?

Because 2 of those were suspensions. Anyone who received a suspension was automatically given a yellow and put on probation, which is technically a step down.

 

[Spinwhiz]

You aren't being punished again, you are being held accountable for your actions, just as you were before. Did you think your previous infractions disappeared? They never disappear. We always use them to tell us what the next step in the penalty process is, regardless of time. Now we've just let you see it.

Before this system was put in place, would you really make the response worse based on something the poster did two and a half years ago? I find that a little hard to believe.

Yup, infractions have always stacked.

 

[Sassafrass]

Rules aren't a problem with me, they've just been updated to give examples, plus they tell you how to appeal now, which is fine.

FHM...eeeeeeeeeeh...on one hand, it's nice to see how far I am from being attacked with a hammer but on the other hand, I don't like the fact it's public knowledge. I'd rather keep my skeletons in mine and the Mods closet, thanks very much. >>

For example, if someone has 30 posts and 3 warnings, they are more likely to be a trouble maker than someone who has 5000 posts and 3 warnings. The bar could fade backwards according to how often the user posts, this way generally good community members won't be suspended because of silly things they did 3 years ago.

That's a good idea, although I can see one problem with it.
If it was ever to be implemented, wouldn't people be heading to FGs and groups, spamming posts there to get a higher post to wrath ratio so they can lose the wrath? Far-fetched thinking I know, but I'm just saying.

 

[Dragonblade146]

I don't really mind these new rules.
Save for never getting off probation, as many people have already said, or not being able to switch. But I'm in good shape, and I'm a nice guy on the internet with trying to keep my jerk-o meter down so I wont get banned.

I vote Some Yay.
Not being able to call out on people trolling or flamming you or your ideals, likes, or anything is kinda weak.

 

[AgentBJ09]

...In all fairness though, all the comments about 'not being a jerk' ruining debate are pretty baseless when you look at how this was handled last time. I mean, I've gone into arguments and been a moderate jerkass about my points, but presented them in a polite way. Doing so, I've never gotten an infraction. If you really are tied to being a jerkass and presenting your jerkassedness to the world it the rudest way possible, then you should expect moderation.

I have no problem with the system. It's not a big yay, or nay for me. It's a big moving on.

Edit: Also, the Escapist represents the old school. The only people that need regenerating health are the ones that can't handle the intensity of fixed health.

Speaking as an old Doom/Quake/Wolfenstein fan, I can relate on this. Regenerating health made things too easy, and like in Halo/Gears, it's easy to abuse the health bar to make sure you avoid being killed.

 

[derelict]

snip

I'd wager the amount of time that passes after being a dick still doesn't absolve one of being a dick. This isn't an insurance company, after all.

I'd also wager that whatever rules that are made...well, can't really be argued against one way or the other. Sure, popular opinion may change the verdict, but personally I think that kind of a rule is brilliant, keeps people from being jerks in the first place. Then there's the matter of this being their forum and all. That'd be like waltzing into the Oval Office and lecturing the president on how to do things. He'd laugh at you. Then SS would probably tackle you and taze the bejeezus out of you, bro.

 

[Alumit]

There were new rules added to the forum? Haha, I should wake up and be more active in the forum.

OT: I really don't care to be honest. So long as they're nothing outrageous, I probably wouldn't have noticed anyway.

 

[ezeroast]

I realy dont see what was wrong with the old system.
But i'm sure as long as i dont post any 1 word responces anymore i'll stay with 1 warning...
Its tempting to get that bar to progress a bit though,
7 more bars till I ding !!

Edit: So after reading up a bit. Is this the system the escapist has always been using just now we can see it too? something like that anyway?

 

[Spinwhiz]

As for seeing warnings and probations get erased, currently it's not going to happen. We are holding people accountable for their actions and we feel 8 strikes is more than enough. 99.9% of the forum members don't have more than 2 warnings (if I'm not mistaken, 82% don't have any infractions). If people can't learn how to be respectful towards others and follow very simple rules, they won't be here for long. Everyone has a bad day but even off of the internet, if you do something stupid on that bad day, you are held accountable. The same goes for The Escapist forums.

I'm sure you might be getting tired of having the current health bar system challenged, but please bear with me as I have a few points to make.

I do agree at large with these new changes. The problem I have with this system is that it's all stick and no carrot. For example, as a reflection of the Matrix badges (or even connected to them), making a substantial number of posts over an extended period of time could, (even should in my mind) have an effect on the health bar, just the green part, but an effect.

While I'm not completely certain of the US legal system, over here many crimes expire after a (long) while. While I do understand your desire for making this site a better one for everyone, I feel that after recieving a warning or a suspension and sufficient time and posts it should be reflected on your health bar. Maybe not removing past transgressions, but showing that you've behaved for a substantial amount of time.
A "time since last offense" counter/bar perhaps?
While I do not presume to know the entire process of moderation, taking into account a long history of good behaviour seems sensible, and if this is something you already do, why not show it in an as clear manner as the health bar?

Lastly;

Similarly, posts including, advocating, or linking to illegal or adult material are a very quick way to end your time as part of The Escapist community. An example of these are:
# Illegal Drugs in the United States
# Illegal Acts in the United States

The need to have a standard to go by seems perfectly sensible and understandable to me.
However, if I were to break one of those two without being aware of it, (due to the fact that I live in Europe, and thus do not know about things that are illegal in the US but not here), how would that work?
I'd assume that I'd get the same punishment regardless, and take it up in an appeal?

Bottom line; I do not disagree that you should be hels accountable for everything you do.
I do however feel that having every misstep ever count indefinitively is a bit harsh.
I'd rather see less chances, maybe three or four and have the possibility of earning redemption for them, than eight static ones.


Thank you for your time.
~the Admiral

Good questions.

For your first question has been an internal discussion for some time. While we currently don't have this system in place, it probably will happen in the future. Currently, we just don't have it, so everyone has 8 strikes. Our goal is not to make people hate the forums, our goal is to make them better and by doing so, we listened to the community to a) update the rules and give examples and b) make penalties more consistent across the board. We have done both of these because we are trying to make this a better place, based on community feedback. Will we implement a "good behavior" process? Probably but it isn't happening yet. People should have to be warned 8 times to be respectful and not flame people.

As for your second question, those are mainly examples. So, for instance, if people want to talk about the uses of media marijuana or the illegal growth of marijuana and how it effects the economy, sure! Those discussions aren't illegal. However, if someone states that they love smoking marijuana, that is advocating the use of it and is illegal, which we will penalize. I remember someone brought up same sex marriages. Why would we lock that? It's a current topic in the news and worthy of discussion. However, if someone in that thread is stating they are married illegally, then we have to penalize them (granted I don't see this situation ever happening). So it's not that people can't discuss what is illegal, it is about advocating illegal acts. This also goes the same for murder. If you are talking about how you would murder someone (or would like to), we are going to penalize you. Speaking about a murder case or subject is completely fine. If anyone's country differs from the US laws, they are welcome to send in an appeal and the appeal board can take care of it.

 

[Asehujiko]

Why are adblockers in the same quickban list as pedophilia?
What constitutes an ad blocker? Does NoScript count as one because it occasionally removes some of the more intrusive ones?
What does it mean with posts "including" them? Does it mean I have to crop my toolbar when I post screenshots of flash game highscores?
Is Mozilla.org illegal to link to because there are ad blockers in it's addon repository?

 

[Whytewulf]

Well, I am clean, but I think it's a bit harsh, when you rely on your community and you are starting to drive them away. How about a period where things do get better if you do. Unless it's a major infraction. Alas, we don't really have an option, but to bring our business elsewhere and not post. Guess we shall see.

 

[Spinwhiz]

I find it rather unfair that there's absolutely no way to clear your record. Everybody slips up now and then. I'm usually the first to advocate harsh punishment for infractions, but this is ridiculous. With harsh punishments should come rewards for good behavior. So if you've not committed any infractions for a certain amount of time, your 'forum heath meter' should go back down.

Nobody should be able to slip up 8 times and being given more chances. If anyone can't learn how to be respectful and follow our rules after what is pretty much 8 infractions, they shouldn't be here.

Not even if the infractions are upwards of 6 months to year apart? Maybe even 2 years or more? 'Cause clearly if that's the case, that's not a person who's out to cause trouble; that's a person who just got a little carried away one day.

That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.

wont most of the determined trolls just make more accounts?

We have ways of getting rid of duplicate accounts. Those will automatically be permabanned.

Thats good, the one thing I would change is that I would make one site dedicated thread to Piracy and the morality, ethics,effect, ect of it, This would stop the same thread with the same arguments and the same trolls and the same flamewars from popping up every 1.5 weeks or so when piracy is involved in a news story.(seriously their are like dozens of threads with basically the same flamewar retreated)

You and me both. I'll have to take a look into potentially doing something like this in the future. Perhaps one big merge thread or something.

 

[DustyDrB]

The odd part about it to me is they made it retroactive. That seems unfair. Everyone should have started with a clean slate.

Yep, agreed. I don't have much complain about (all I've ever gotten here is a single warning), but I've seen people who were seemingly perpetually receiving mod wrath clean up their act and learn how to better express their thoughts. Either everyone should start on a blank slate, or the health meter should return to zero over time.

 

[Spinwhiz]

The new rules are created based on a lot of feedback from the community over a large amount of time. They actually haven't changed as much as updated as per members' request. Now we just give examples which again, members asked for.

As for seeing warnings and probations get erased, currently it's not going to happen. We are holding people accountable for their actions and we feel 8 strikes is more than enough. 99.9% of the forum members don't have more than 2 warnings (if I'm not mistaken, 82% don't have any infractions). If people can't learn how to be respectful towards others and follow very simple rules, they won't be here for long. Everyone has a bad day but even off of the internet, if you do something stupid on that bad day, you are held accountable. The same goes for The Escapist forums.

As for the forum health bars, we were tired of hearing "why did this person only get a warning and this other person get a suspension?" Well, now you can tell because we've laid it out for you.

I'm not saying there won't be changes in the future but at this time this is what we are sticking with.

We both know that statistic is largely inflated by inactive posters/accounts. The new rules seem to discourage discussion because, now, a mistake is there forever.

"We both know"? Since when do you have access to our internal numbers? Plus why would I lie? We are trying to be as transparent as possible and have updated everything based on community feedback. Making assumptions like this is what is going to get you into trouble because it sounds like you are calling me a liar, which I don't appreciate.

 

[Spinwhiz]

That is why we give 7 chances. Don't think I'm trying to push you, or anyone else, off either. I completely understand where you are coming from as we've had this discussion internally before we could even think about launching the new penalty system and updated rules (which has been months now). We just feel that we do give chances, 8 of them, and those who can not hold it together for The Escapist to have to tell someone 8 times that isn't how you behave is more than enough.

My problem with that is I've had half of those chances skipped over. I'm in the yellow and I've only ever had one post break the rules. Never got any warnings, it was straight to probation the first time. So now anything I do is automatically a suspension, and even though that was quite a long time ago I'm 3 away from a permanent ban.

I would say to send in an appeal then. They have the ability to read your plead for change and change it.

 

[Gruchul]

Going to take a look now

Edit: Doesn't look too bad. I'm sure this will impact relatively few of us anyway.