# Poll: Old subject? Invert Y axis Camera

#### not_you

##### Don't ask, or you won't know
I play with inverted Y axis on almost every game....
I learnt how to play that way because that's how my father played...
I'm 22 now, and been playing since I was about 5....

But yeah, my friends hate me for it... lol

Edit: For me, there is no way to rationalise it...

That's just how I learnt to play the game... If I wanted to, I suppose I could learn to play without inverted, but I'd suck at the game for a few days while my arm learnt the difference...

But yeah, the moving head for more realism bollocks makes no sense to me... It's just how I learnt, nothing more to it...

#### kurokotetsu

##### Proud Master
Vigormortis said:
kurokotetsu said:
Wouldn't you have to invert the X axis too then? Because if you pull left they see right.
No, not at all.

When you look up, you tilt your head backwards. When you look down, you tilt it forwards. However, when you look left, you turn and tilt it left, not turn it left and tilt it right. Same goes for looking right.

So really, inverting the Y axis and not inverting the X axis fits more to the natural movements of the head.
Yeah, not my point. First, the movement of perspective in a video game is so unnatural, I don't really care about what seems natural, is just what you get used to. Second, even if what you say is true, well OP said about putting your hand and pulling. And having done my fair share of pulling the hair for the other to see in the desired direction, pulling right makes the person look left. No how you move your own head but how you move another's head, which is what OP said and what that comment meant in context.

Flammablezeus said:
kurokotetsu said:
paulbnet said:
My and my brothers reasoning is If you put your hand on someones head and pull backwards which way do they look?
Wouldn't you have to invert the X axis too then? Because if you pull left they see right.

I don't do ti, simply because I grew acostumed to doing ti. SOme games that invert it, maybe I got used to it, but really is just a thing fo muscle memory playing the game.
It depends how you see the controller I think. I see it as back, forwards, left and right. Left and right are self explanatory, but back is up and forward is down. It just makes sense to me.

Some people must just see up and down instead of forward and back (even though I never see people hold the controller facing themselves, only facing upwards.)

In the end, it probably really is just whatever you got used to with early games that take place in 3D worlds and had controllable cameras.
If you see it that wya. Yes, OP said something different, which I'm pointing out.

Everyone is free to play as they prefer, see fit. Just pointing something I found odd. And yes it is more about how you sued to play than what is really natural, those are usually rationalizations of your behavior.

#### Tanis

##### The Last Albino
When you push left, the camera should go left.
When you push right, the camera should go right.

So...
When you push up, the camera should go up.
When you push down, the camera should go down.

Never got people who could stand the controls going the wrong way.

#### DoPo

##### "You're not cleared for that."
Vigormortis said:
kurokotetsu said:
Wouldn't you have to invert the X axis too then? Because if you pull left they see right.
No, not at all.

When you look up, you tilt your head backwards. When you look down, you tilt it forwards. However, when you look left, you turn and tilt it left, not turn it left and tilt it right. Same goes for looking right.

So really, inverting the Y axis and not inverting the X axis fits more to the natural movements of the head.
Depends how you look at the head. If you look up, the front part of the head (the face, or chin/forehead, if you want a more specific point) moves up. The top of your head, however, moves back, while the back of your head moves down. Roughly, that's how different "points of interest" would move. Since I think of my head as the front of it (eyes being there and all), I see looking up as moving up and that's what I expect from controlling a view point in games - by controlling the character, I'm telling them what I'd do and I expect they'll do it. So I'm sort of controlling them from the inside (and I realise now that sounds creepy). I suppose the inverted Y axis makes sense if you see the character as sort of your "marionette", as in you externally control them.

#### Pete Oddly

##### New member
I play inverted, and I have a simple answer as to why: Turok: The Dinosaur Hunter on N64

It was the first shooter I played which allowed for looking up and down (aside from using PgUp and PgDown in Doom and Redneck Rampage), and the default controls were inverted. As such, inverted was how I learned the basics of dual-input movement, and so that's what has always felt right to me.

Easy explanation is easy.

#### josemlopes

##### New member
Timesplitters 2 forced me to learn it, I didnt understand english very well back then and didnt knew how to put the aiming normal since it was inverted by default so that was the only game where I played inverted, for some reason since I played it so much I would adjusted myself in a minute and playing it without being inverted felt weird latter on (I did eventually learned how to change)

#### XMark

##### New member
Former inverter, reformed myself because it was always annoying when I was over at a friend's place and had to pause and change controls whenever it's my turn. It only took about a week to fully adjust to non-inverted controls.

Strangely enough, when I play Battlefield 3 or 4, I still find it natural to use inverted controls for planes and helicopters, while remaining non-inverted on foot.

#### Nowhere Man

##### New member
I can't play an FPS unless I can invert Y. I don't remember where I began the habit but it was a very long time ago and now playing normal feels as disorienting as I imagine it must be for those that don't invert and try to.

3rd person games I normally invert X as well. I set the sensitivity as high as I can handle and played through Bayonetta this way for example.

#### Arnoxthe1

##### New member
I think being comfortable with inverted Y has to do with playing any space/flight sims at an early age though I could be totally wrong.

#### Nowhere Man

##### New member
Arnoxthe1 said:
I think being comfortable with inverted Y has to do with playing any space/flight sims at an early age though I could be totally wrong.
That's how I began but I don't remember which game(s).

#### Scarim Coral

##### Jumped the ship
Legacy
Technical I can played it both ways (invert for Timesplitte 2 and 3 but non inverted on Halo) but it does take me a while to adjust to the other setting.

#### Denamic

##### New member
paulbnet said:
My and my brothers reasoning is If you put your hand on someones head and pull backwards which way do they look?
By that logic, you should be playing with the X axis inverted too.

I'm perfectly fine with inverted Y axis in third person and for piloting aircraft. In the case of third person perspective, I'm controlling the camera. Down on the stick makes the camera go down and in effect looking upwards. Makes perfect sense. And pushing to descend and pulling to ascend in aircrafts is intuitive. But in the case of first person perspective, I'm not controlling a machine or a camera; I'm controlling his or her line of sight. Down on the stick moves the point of focus down and vice versa.

#### Abulurd_H

##### New member
I can't play fps or flight any other way. Inverted Y or I don't play. It just makes sense to me. 'normal' is bass ackwards to me.

The way I see it. Place your hand palm down on the top of some ones head. pull back they look up, push forward they look down. twist or push left and they will look/tilt left etc

This could be because of early flight games and original Tomb raider games. I couldn't play Turoc, the head bobbing made me sea sick

#### MysticSlayer

##### New member
Phoenixmgs said:
I honestly don't understand how some people find inverted controls better. I mean, there must be a reason, people wouldn't just train themselves to do something more difficult for no reason. Some people's brains must just function differently, making it easier to play inverted. Definitely not for me though.
It's not that either is better, it's all about muscle memory really. I think all this talk about how moving your head forward to look down (backward to look up) is more realistic is hogwash. I'm pretty sure the reason I invert the y-axis is because whatever the 1st 3D game I played was defaulted to an inverted y-axis, thus I've always inverted y.
Except muscle memory doesn't really explain initial preference. Maybe to someone who played older console games would prefer an inverted Y-axis because so many of them defaulted to that, but it doesn't explain those who pick up a controller for the first time finding an inverted axis to be more natural. It also doesn't explain how people raised on the same games and with the same controls would prefer something different when given the option, which I can say from experience does happen.

Now, I'm not saying this to say that everyone finds the same thing more natural and that one group or the other just had to overcome their natural tendencies to adopt one. However, we tend to apply past experience with systems to figure out how to use new systems, so there is certainly no harm in trying to explain how you believe your mind equates a comparatively abstract idea, such as manipulating an image on a screen, to a very physical one. Let's just recognize that different people probably compared the image manipulation to a different system, which would lead to simply different initial preference, not really a right or wrong preference.

#### Vigormortis

##### New member
DoPo said:
Depends how you look at the head. If you look up, the front part of the head (the face, or chin/forehead, if you want a more specific point) moves up. The top of your head, however, moves back, while the back of your head moves down. Roughly, that's how different "points of interest" would move. Since I think of my head as the front of it (eyes being there and all), I see looking up as moving up and that's what I expect from controlling a view point in games - by controlling the character, I'm telling them what I'd do and I expect they'll do it. So I'm sort of controlling them from the inside (and I realise now that sounds creepy). I suppose the inverted Y axis makes sense if you see the character as sort of your "marionette", as in you externally control them.
Not really. Not for me, anyway.

When I have mine inverted, I'm using the stick to mimic how I would naturally move my head. I tilt the stick back to look up because I tilt/twist my own head backwards when I look up. I tilt forward because I tilt/twist my head forward to look down.

Now, since I can't spin the analog stick clockwise nor counter-clockwise I can't directly mimic my natural movements for looking left and right. However, when I look left, I don't just twist my head left I also lean it to the left. Tilting the analog stick left feels vaguely similar to this motion.

This is why I always play with an inverted Y-axis and a non-inverted X-axis. My natural inclination is to mimic my own viewpoint.

#### DoPo

##### "You're not cleared for that."
Vigormortis said:
DoPo said:
Depends how you look at the head. If you look up, the front part of the head (the face, or chin/forehead, if you want a more specific point) moves up. The top of your head, however, moves back, while the back of your head moves down. Roughly, that's how different "points of interest" would move. Since I think of my head as the front of it (eyes being there and all), I see looking up as moving up and that's what I expect from controlling a view point in games - by controlling the character, I'm telling them what I'd do and I expect they'll do it. So I'm sort of controlling them from the inside (and I realise now that sounds creepy). I suppose the inverted Y axis makes sense if you see the character as sort of your "marionette", as in you externally control them.
Not really. Not for me, anyway.

When I have mine inverted, I'm using the stick to mimic how I would naturally move my head. I tilt the stick back to look up because I tilt/twist my own head backwards when I look up. I tilt forward because I tilt/twist my head forward to look down.

Now, since I can't spin the analog stick clockwise nor counter-clockwise I can't directly mimic my natural movements for looking left and right. However, when I look left, I don't just twist my head left I also lean it to the left. Tilting the analog stick left feels vaguely similar to this motion.

This is why I always play with an inverted Y-axis and a non-inverted X-axis. My natural inclination is to mimic my own viewpoint.
Again, as I said, it depends on how you consider your head. When I look down my forehead moves down. If I look up, my forehead moves up.

#### Vigormortis

##### New member
DoPo said:
Again, as I said, it depends on how you consider your head. When I look down my forehead moves down. If I look up, my forehead moves up.
I...know. I wasn't disagreeing with you. And I certainly wasn't saying you were wrong.

I was just clarifying my reasoning for inverting the Y-axis. That's all.

#### JUMBO PALACE

##### Elite Member
Legacy
I've always played inverted. It's probably because one of the first games I really tried to learn was Star Fox 64 and as a flight game the controls were obviously inverted. So that just became the norm. Push up to push the nose down and pull back to pull the nose up.

#### Phoenixmgs_v1legacy

##### Muse of Fate
MysticSlayer said:
Except muscle memory doesn't really explain initial preference. Maybe to someone who played older console games would prefer an inverted Y-axis because so many of them defaulted to that, but it doesn't explain those who pick up a controller for the first time finding an inverted axis to be more natural. It also doesn't explain how people raised on the same games and with the same controls would prefer something different when given the option, which I can say from experience does happen.

Now, I'm not saying this to say that everyone finds the same thing more natural and that one group or the other just had to overcome their natural tendencies to adopt one. However, we tend to apply past experience with systems to figure out how to use new systems, so there is certainly no harm in trying to explain how you believe your mind equates a comparatively abstract idea, such as manipulating an image on a screen, to a very physical one. Let's just recognize that different people probably compared the image manipulation to a different system, which would lead to simply different initial preference, not really a right or wrong preference.
I didn't have an initial preference either way. I don't even know what the 1st 3D game I played was but it must've had an inverted y-axis by default. Raised on a certain game or games doesn't really matter as my theory is that whatever 3D game you played first is what caused most people's preferences, and it doesn't even have to be a game they played much or even liked. I'm also not making a blanket statement saying that is the case for everyone, I just feel that is the case for the majority of people and why they prefer normal y or inverted y, then most people try to find more logic to their reasoning than is really there. I'm also guessing older gamers probably invert y more than newer gamers because I swear inverted y used to be the default and now it almost never is. I played FFXII that had an inverted x you couldn't change, I didn't find that unnatural or wrong. It just massively screwed me over when I went to play a shooter afterwards that I had to retrain my brain.

#### Ryan Hughes

##### New member
It is odd for me. For purely camera controls, I prefer inverted Y-axis, for crosshairs and the like, I prefer standard. Though, I cannot say I play too many FPS games, and when I do, it is always on PC. I wouldn't say my right thumb is paralyzed. . . it just isn't nearly as dexterous as my left due to an old injury, so shooters on consoles really do not agree with me. I usually have to play on easy or with a lot of auto-aim.