Poll: Rape is totally okay to joke about, right guys?

[Thistlehart]

Humor is based on pain. There are many different kinds of pain, and so many kinds of humor. If it doesn't hurt (or couldn't potentially hurt), it's not funny. It's one of the ways we, as a species, deal with pain.

Nothing is sacred. Nothing is special. No god, no body part, no concept.

However, a bad joke is a bad joke.

Nothing excuses a bad joke.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Damn, what a disgusting thread...

People shouldn't *want* to make jokes about rape.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but... bleh.

"I'm all in favour of free speech... except for what I personally don't like!"
"I'm all in favour of my *insert non white straight male here* rights... except for when it affects me negatively!"
"I'm really against the people saying videogames should get banned... but that Call of Duty should be wiped off the face of the earth!"

If you want your cake you've got to eat it too, no matter how shitty the icing.

(I love cake analogies)

 

[lacktheknack]

Damn, what a disgusting thread...

People shouldn't *want* to make jokes about rape.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but... bleh.

"I'm all in favour of free speech... except for what I personally don't like!"
"I'm all in favour of my *insert non white straight male here* rights... except for when it affects me negatively!"
"I'm really against the people saying videogames should get banned... but that Call of Duty should be wiped off the face of the earth!"

If you want your cake you've got to eat it too, no matter how shitty the icing.

(I love cake analogies)

You'd better be careful. One of these days, I'm going to say "ENOUGH WITH YOUR CRAP CAKE" and become a totalitarian.

Besides, you really missed the point of his post.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Damn, what a disgusting thread...

People shouldn't *want* to make jokes about rape.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but... bleh.

"I'm all in favour of free speech... except for what I personally don't like!"
"I'm all in favour of my *insert non white straight male here* rights... except for when it affects me negatively!"
"I'm really against the people saying videogames should get banned... but that Call of Duty should be wiped off the face of the earth!"

If you want your cake you've got to eat it too, no matter how shitty the icing.

(I love cake analogies)

You'd better be careful. One of these days, I'm going to say "ENOUGH WITH YOUR CRAP CAKE" and become a totalitarian.

Besides, you really missed the point of his post.

I don't think I did really. He basically said that he's fine with free speech, but doesn't get why some people would want to use that to make jokes about rape. And the "bleh" makes it seem like he doesn't want them to, and/or hate it when they do. He's basically saying that free speech is fine as long as it's not jokes about rape, which is just hypocrisy.

 

[Suicidejim]

That, I think, is very important. For someone to tell you how you should feel about something is indeed wrong. But it runs both ways. You can't just sit there and lecture a person on how they absolutely must find rape jokes funny, but it's just as bad to sit there and lecture someone about how they must find rape to be a serious and traumatizing subject that they must only ever treat seriously and sternly.

Are you seriously pretending that those are the same thing? That somehow all feelings towards rape, and by extension, all violent, destructive, and hideous actions are up for grabs? There's no difference between saying that you should take rape seriously and saying that it's hilarious?

You can feel however you want to about rape; we're not fucking thought police here. We're just saying that if you're shitty enough to think rape is just a laugh riot, then please keep it to yourself and please especially don't base your entire career on it.

As I said in the other thread, statistics repeatedly place the number of men who say they would rape if they knew they would get away with it around 33%. So clearly there really are quite a few people out there who aren't too down on rape as a concept. "Dark" or "edgy" acts like this are not only immature and stupid but they also feed that demographic of people because it allows them to express their seriously-held misogyny under the cover of satire or "just joking around," both inflaming their sociosexual immaturity while simultaneously exploiting and devaluing the issue at hand - the fact that women are raped dozens and dozens of times every goddamn HOUR in this country.

Odds are there were a few rapists in that fucking shitty little audience, just laughing along. A joke won't ever make a non-rapist into a rapist, but it certainly can help create an environment where sexual violence is not only excused but celebrated and laughed at. And that's fucking bad enough.

My opinions on what should and should not be allowed are simple. If you seriously endorse or encourage behaviour that will result in the harm or discrimination of others, that should not be allowed. Otherwise, it's fair game. Jokes, generally, do not seriously endorse such behaviour.

I'll admit, rape is a tricky one for me, and there are various complications and biases in my own life which could influence my opinion (no, not being a rapist, before some smartarse makes the joke), but trying to view the issue as objectively as I can, I do think that people should at least have the right to make such jokes. Whether or not people find them tasteful is up to them.

 

[Raven's Nest]

snip

But it's perfectly okay to joke about death, pain, and other "bad" things?

Death is universal and inevitable therefore it is something we must all face together. Therefore the discussion of death as a concept isn't inherently offensive.

One of my friends was murdered, strangled to death by her ex-boyfriend. I now happen to work with her younger brother. I can joke about death but am I going to make a joke about murder to him simply because I thought it was funny? No, because I'm not a complete dick and there are hundreds of different ways to produce a laugh than that. Comedians have the same choice, they either choose to embrace these topics as a means of producing a laugh or they don't.

I'm not saying I can't joke about murder in front of him. I'm saying I wouldn't, get the difference?

I read that story and I made that comment that it seems completely absurd that the subject of rape gets treated with special mittens, but subjects like murder, war, drugs, starvation, and racism are ok to joke about.

Same story, I read the comments of that thread. I agreed that you can't censor a subject. I'm of the opinion that if you want to make a joke about things like rape or racism, you better damned be well prepared to face the consequences of doing so.

We place criminal charges on people who say racist things, hurtful things that are said to offend people who have something unchangeably different about them. Talking about racism is different to making a racist comment.

Talking about rape is again different to directly making a comment designed to offend someone who have something unchangeably different about them. What Tosh said to that lady most certainly falls into the latter category (regardless of whether or not she was a rape victim).

You wouldn't get away with making a racist joke about black people on stage (regardless of whether there are any black people in the room). Why should the rape comment be treated any differently?

It's still a more reasonable demand than restricting a certain type of communication or topic for humour from everyone else in the world, though.

Read the above reply to Helmholtz Watson. We make the use of racial slurs illegal for the same justfiable reasons as making personal comments about rape. I have to stress, I'm not saying rape should be banned from comedy, I'm saying it should be frowned upon and in some cases, such as personal attacks, made a criminal offense. We all know that racism is offensive, why is making jokes about rape any less offensive?

Snip

a little bit of first hand perspective can change everything. Perhaps if comedian is hell bent on making rape jokes to earn money, they could afford to take the time to speak to some rape victims and maybe understand that making these kind of jokes are about as desperate and potentially hurtful as it gets. If they still think it's a great idea and totally worth it, well let the public decide how appropriate it is.

I think you forgot about the part where the author said that he doesn't speak for all rape victims. Not everyone who's been raped will shut down, vomit, or have a fit at the mere mention of the word.

And not all people have the same reaction to racism. Doesn't mean the person saying racist things will "get off the hook" just because the victim wasn't offended.

 

[lacktheknack]

Damn, what a disgusting thread...

People shouldn't *want* to make jokes about rape.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but... bleh.

"I'm all in favour of free speech... except for what I personally don't like!"
"I'm all in favour of my *insert non white straight male here* rights... except for when it affects me negatively!"
"I'm really against the people saying videogames should get banned... but that Call of Duty should be wiped off the face of the earth!"

If you want your cake you've got to eat it too, no matter how shitty the icing.

(I love cake analogies)

You'd better be careful. One of these days, I'm going to say "ENOUGH WITH YOUR CRAP CAKE" and become a totalitarian.

Besides, you really missed the point of his post.

I don't think I did really. He basically said that he's fine with free speech, but doesn't get why some people would want to use that to make jokes about rape. And the "bleh" makes it seem like he doesn't want them to, and/or hate it when they do. He's basically saying that free speech is fine as long as it's not jokes about rape, which is just hypocrisy.

It's not hypocrisy. Just because I support the concept of free speech doesn't mean I have to want people to talk about sterilizing some of my family members (ie. forced eugenics). In fact, I LOATHE it when forced eugenics are brought up.

If that makes me anti-free speech, then your free speech can burn in hell.

 

[DementedSheep]

Depends on the context. Can you make rape jokes? Sure but it shouldn?t be directed at a real person and there should be more to it than ?lol rape?.

 

[Eynimeb]

Damn, what a disgusting thread...

People shouldn't *want* to make jokes about rape.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but... bleh.

"I'm all in favour of free speech... except for what I personally don't like!"
"I'm all in favour of my *insert non white straight male here* rights... except for when it affects me negatively!"
"I'm really against the people saying videogames should get banned... but that Call of Duty should be wiped off the face of the earth!"

If you want your cake you've got to eat it too, no matter how shitty the icing.

(I love cake analogies)

The problem doesn't lie in the concept of free speech. It lies with using it with a lack of empathy.

Words may be seen as insubstantial and easily brushed aside, but they carry real meaning. Real concepts, referring to real events, and for many people, real experiences, with real traumas and real emotions. It's easy to say that people should just grow a thicker skin, but emotions don't work that way.

When you make fun of people's suffering, and then tell them to grow a thicker skin, you may not be exceeding the boundaries of free speech, but you are showing a severe lack of empathy.

Lack of empathy for one another is one of the biggest problems humanity has, and lies at the root of just about every other social evil and crisis.

In addition, there are people who don't have either the mental capacity or maturity to realise that rape is bad, and seeing people crack wise about rape might shape their opinions on the matter, or make them feel emboldened even, because they may feel there is social support for it. I have no idea what percentage or number of perpetrators are 'formed' this way, but damn it, they exist.

 

[ToastiestZombie]

Damn, what a disgusting thread...

People shouldn't *want* to make jokes about rape.

I'm all in favor of free speech, but... bleh.

"I'm all in favour of free speech... except for what I personally don't like!"
"I'm all in favour of my *insert non white straight male here* rights... except for when it affects me negatively!"
"I'm really against the people saying videogames should get banned... but that Call of Duty should be wiped off the face of the earth!"

If you want your cake you've got to eat it too, no matter how shitty the icing.

(I love cake analogies)

The problem doesn't lie in the concept of free speech. It lies with using it with a lack of empathy.

Words may be seen as insubstantial and easily brushed aside, but they carry real meaning. Real concepts, referring to real events, and for many people, real experiences, with real traumas and real emotions. It's easy to say that people should just grow a thicker skin, but emotions don't work that way.

When you make fun of people's suffering, and then tell them to grow a thicker skin, you may not be exceeding the boundaries of free speech, but you are showing a severe lack of empathy.

Lack of empathy for one another is one of the biggest problems humanity has, and lies at the root of just about every other social evil and crisis.

In addition, there are people who don't have either the mental capacity or maturity to realise that rape is bad, and seeing people crack wise about rape might shape their opinions on the matter, or make them feel emboldened even, because they may feel there is social support for it. I have no idea what percentage or number of perpetrators are 'formed' this way, but damn it, they exist.

But really, there are more pressing matters when it comes to people influencing other people to do terrible things. Most homophobes are influenced by other people such as their parents to be that way, same with most racists. I'm pretty sure there's a TINY minority of people who haven't got the intelligence to figure out that rape=bad. It's like saying murder jokes are bad because of some murderer who got influenced by them because he was brain dead stupid, it's saying a joke's bad because of some idiot who actually takes it seriously and lets that shape their views of the subject.

I've laughed at pretty much every dark joke in the world, holocaust jokes, dead baby jokes, rape jokes, child pornography jokes, terrorism jokes and war jokes yet I still know that all of those are the worst things a person can do. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of comedians who make jokes about these subjects are the same. There will always be some bastard who uses those jokes to really be mean, but that's all they are, bastards. Rape jokes are fine, bastards are bastards.

 

[Bestival]

Have a good read of this http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/features/9766-The-R-Word

I've never read a more articulate and personal account of why it's inappropriate to use rape as a subject of comedy. Basically the laughs generated in no way make up for the hurt caused and therefore the ends doesn't justify the means.

I'd suggest any budding comedian ought to go through the physical and mental horror of rape before being allowed to make jokes about rape to the general public.

My personal opinion: If you make a rape joke (aimed at a person like in the other thread's example) you are just being a ****, end of story.

So why would you say this about rape only, but not about murder, racism, genocide, oppression, fraud, the recession, war, warcrimes, natural disasters, unnatural disasters, and Hugh Jackman?

I've heard good and bad jokes about all this shit, the good ones always made me laugh, the bad ones always made me grumble. As long as something is about mocking the concept of the bad thing, and not glorifying it, or mocking the victims, anything can be joked about. Including rape, as this needs a special mention apparently.

 

[Glademaster_v1legacy]

Well there is a fine line between a joke and something bad. Like there are many racist jokes that are intended to be funny but many that are intended to be hurtful. If it is the former it is ok in my eyes that latter is not. Rape requires a lot of finesse that most people lack and there are reasons why it is more frowned upon than others.

 

[peruvianskys]

My opinions on what should and should not be allowed are simple. If you seriously endorse or encourage behaviour that will result in the harm or discrimination of others, that should not be allowed. Otherwise, it's fair game. Jokes, generally, do not seriously endorse such behaviour.

But what rape jokes do seriously endorse or encourage is the marginalization of rape victims and the trivialization of a very serious crime that is endemic to our society. As I said, that's bad enough.

I'll admit, rape is a tricky one for me, and there are various complications and biases in my own life which could influence my opinion (no, not being a rapist, before some smartarse makes the joke), but trying to view the issue as objectively as I can, I do think that people should at least have the right to make such jokes. Whether or not people find them tasteful is up to them.

Of course he should have the right to say these things. That's a given. What he shouldn't have the right to do is say them with immunity. Mr. Tosh has made statements that are not only on their face offensive, but also absolutely unacceptable in their deeper implication and intended effect. It's not just that he used the word "rape" without proper reverence or something; the problem is that he made jokes that cannot bring about any possible result except an increased callousness and disrespect towards victims of sexual violence. The correct response to such a negative action is disapproval, censure, and condemnation. I'm not asking people to take him off the stage and throw him in jail.

 

[Raven's Nest]

Yes death is universal, but illness, retardation and drug addiction[footnote]Removed terrorism for something more personal.[/footnote] aren't.

But chances are if you make a joke about one of these in public there are bound to be atleast some people within earshot that have been affected directly by these things in some manner. Especially illness.

The probability of this happening multiply exponentially when you're a comic doing a set in front of a large group of people.

Just because these topics are likely to offend someone within your audience, should you tailor your act to account for this possibility?

That's entirely down to the comedian and their type of humour.

Rape is not exempt from this logic in some magic way. Yes, it's a horrible thing. But a comedian isn't obliged to choose their material in a way that removes all chance of offending somebody.

And surely you understand how disingenuous it is to compare something like a set joke told to an audience with a throw away joke within choice company. Especially with the close personal nature of all involved as per your example.

You aren't really listening to what I'm saying. My point is, if you need to say something deliberately hurtful to make people laugh then that doesn't automatically make you a genius, boundary pushing comedian. It kind of makes you a dick in the eyes of most people. Again, not saying you can't make rape jokes, I'm trying to get across why you probably shouldn't.

Honestly, if rape jokes are the best you've got, you are just a shit comedian.

 

[DEAD34345]

It's still a more reasonable demand than restricting a certain type of communication or topic for humour from everyone else in the world, though.

Read the above reply to Helmholtz Watson. We make the use of racial slurs illegal for the same justfiable reasons as making personal comments about rape. I have to stress, I'm not saying rape should be banned from comedy, I'm saying it should be frowned upon and in some cases, such as personal attacks, made a criminal offense. We all know that racism is offensive, why is making jokes about rape any less offensive?

I personally find racist jokes offensive, however I do not find jokes about racism offensive. I find racist jokes offensive because they are racist, not because they are about racism. Jokes that are merely about racism are not racist, and are therefore perfectly OK as far as I'm concerned.

If there were a kind of joke that necessitated raping someone, then yes, I would find it very offensive and expect the person doing it to face the full force of the law. Jokes that are merely about rape however, are again perfectly acceptable to me.

Racism (whether within a joke or not) -> Not OK
Jokes about racism -> OK
Rape -> Not OK
Jokes about rape -> OK

The comparison between racism and rape jokes just doesn't make sense. Then again, this discussion is kind of stupid, since I mostly agree with your overall view. I believe jokes about rape should be allowed, but I personally would probably dislike them, as would many other people.

 

[Raven's Nest]

So why would you say this about rape only, but not about murder, racism, genocide, oppression, fraud, the recession, war, warcrimes, natural disasters, unnatural disasters, and Hugh Jackman?[/quote]

Because this thread isn't addressing those things.

I've heard good and bad jokes about all this shit, the good ones always made me laugh, the bad ones always made me grumble. As long as something is about mocking the concept of the bad thing, and not glorifying it, or mocking the victims, anything can be joked about. Including rape, as this needs a special mention apparently.

We allow jokes about racism but we criminalise racist comments. If you liken the act of joking about rape to joking about racism, then I don't have a problem, there are probably better, less offensive things to talk about however. If you liken mocking rape victims to making racist comments, which most of us are certainly not willing to accept, and in my opinion is worse, then you can see a pretty strong case for criminalising the outright mocking or taunting of rape victims.

 

[Raven's Nest]

It's still a more reasonable demand than restricting a certain type of communication or topic for humour from everyone else in the world, though.

Read the above reply to Helmholtz Watson. We make the use of racial slurs illegal for the same justfiable reasons as making personal comments about rape. I have to stress, I'm not saying rape should be banned from comedy, I'm saying it should be frowned upon and in some cases, such as personal attacks, made a criminal offense. We all know that racism is offensive, why is making jokes about rape any less offensive?

I personally find racist jokes offensive, however I do not find jokes about racism offensive. I find racist jokes offensive because they are racist, not because they are about racism. Jokes that are merely about racism are not racist, and are therefore perfectly OK as far as I'm concerned.

If there were a kind of joke that necessitated raping someone, then yes, I would find it very offensive and expect the person doing it to face the full force of the law. Jokes that are merely about rape however, are again perfectly acceptable to me.

Racism (whether within a joke or not) -> Not OK
Jokes about racism -> OK
Rape -> Not OK
Jokes about rape -> OK

The comparison between racism and rape jokes just doesn't make sense. Then again, this discussion is kind of stupid, since I mostly agree with your overall view. I believe jokes about rape should be allowed, but I personally would probably dislike them, as would many other people.

This is exactly the point I'm making. See the above reply of mine.

The only distinction is that I find the vast majority of "rape humour" unfunny, distasteful and a desperate move.