Poll: Should Link be female in the next Lengend Of Zelda

TomLikesGuitar

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Treblaine said:
That definition is far too narrow and irrelevant, and is purely semantic anyway. The opposition to female protagonists for no other reason than their gender is wrong, no matter what you call it. Being unable to relate to a character simply because they aren't the same sex as you is BAD! You never added any caveats for "this particular character being female makes it hard to relate because I'm a male" you talked in broad terms, yet now you seem to have recanted it.
I never stated inability to relate, just that it was easier for me to relate to male characters.

Do you really think a lot of girls can relate to Marcus Fenix?

Do you?

I would go so far as to say that there are a lot of girls who can NOT relate to Duke Nukem at all.

Now fem-Link wouldn't be as much of a female caricature, but you see the point that gender has an impact on how you relate to a character. Men and women are, in my opinion, equal, but only when you consider all qualities. There are many aspects in which men and women are NOT equal, and they both have strengths, weaknesses, and traits that differentiate them from one another.

Certain characters work better as one gender instead of the other. I would be much more likely to write a militant, ignorant monarch, ignoring the warning plea of the protagonist, as a male. Having a King as a static character would work better IMO than having a Queen. Women are generally less stubborn with their resolve. On that same leaf, however, I would be much more likely to write a militant, but emotional monarch, lowering her guard sympathetically to a conniving antagonist, as a female. Having a Queen as a dynamic character would work better IMO than having a King.

Shakespeare is a great example of a writer using these familiar motifs very effectively. Both of those characters I described kind of suck, but their impact can be intensified by playing upon our instinctive gender roles, and the culturally based gender roles that we have in our society.

I have explained this to you already. You are mistaking your personal preference for the way a game SHOULD be. And the narrative of the series is entirely relevant for what SHOULD or SHOULDN'T be in the game series.

And preference is separate from an inability to relate to a character because of their gender.
The game SHOULD be whatever Nintendo wants it to be. I don't think it's either of our place to say what the game SHOULD be.

You think that the game SHOULD have a female in the next one for a few reasons (I'm paying attention) and they make sense in a lore kind of way, but they also center around lore being more important than gameplay/sales/etc...

If these three facts are true (I think the last two are arguable since the ENTIRETY of the extended plot has yet to be disclosed) then yes, your logic is sound, and then next Link SHOULD be a girl as far as lore is concerned.

1. Link is a mantle passed down to capable citizens of Hyrule
2. There is no stipulation involved in the choosing of the next Link that would make a male more likely than a female
3. There are an equal number of males and females in Hyrule

But like we've said, SHOULD means a lot of things... Miyamoto himself said that the gameplay is more important to him than the story, and that's how I make games as well. You'd be surprised how much extra work a female Link would be for concept artists, writers, and even programmers and animators (breasts and hair are not fun lol), and that time is better spent on gameplay innovation and concentrating on the world and the plot and the other characters.

And again, I never stated an inability to relate.

I can relate to a lot of female characters in a lot of things (admittedly more outside of games). Of course, I obviously relate to guys better.

Then if it is NOT for inability to relate to a character because of their gender, THEN WHAT REASON?!?!! Long ago you associated yourself with the argument that it doesn't fit with the lore, now you seem to be saying it does fit.

Also I'd like you to acknowledge that your personal preference is inappropriate to equate to a "should" apply for a game everyone else plays.
Hey, I was saying that last statement before you did. But let's agree on that. Neither one of us should say what the game SHOULD be based on personal preference.

And I don't think I ever argued that it wouldn't* fit the LORE, but if I did, what I meant what that it wouldn't fit the thematic traditional consistency that follows the main character. It's really not a huge deal to me, and if they had started off by changing more about him in each game I'd be much more for it.
 

Uriain

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I had to vote no.

I think that while a strong female lead along side Samus would be great for Nintendo (Zelda and Peach while good characters aren't exactly "lead"), I don't think turning Link into a female character is the correct way to go. New characters can ,and in my opinion should be, created with franchises to support them.
 
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TomLikesGuitar said:
Treblaine said:
JimB said:
Sigh... you two are very frustrating...

But hey, it's ALL opinions. Remember that.

I tried to use the last post to summarize OTHER PEOPLE'S opinions and I did and you both still are incessant with the accusations of sexism.

I'd like to hope that the sheer amount of people who have disagreed with you here have shown you two that we aren't as sexist as you claim, but your recent posts fail to substantiate this.

Sexism can be described as discrimination of another gender. Discrimination can be described simply as understanding the difference between one thing and another.

By that logic, almost anything can fall under that veil, and you guys are abusing that.

It isn't sexist for men to relate to male characters better. Go ahead, argue that point, but you're wrong and you know it.

I am also not a sexist by any means.

I played Portal when it came out and like the game better with a female lead. Am I sexist for that as well?

I like Samus as a girl better, am I sexist for that?

No. We've addressed that and you agree with me on that.

But I like Link better as a guy and your reasoning for why that makes me sexist is some extended universe plot?

I think you're fucking nuts for that and need to get off your respective pedestals.

I don't think a game with a female Link is impossible, I just wouldn't want it. That doesn't make me sexist, you dig?
Oh, you bloody sexist!

No, I kid. That's all fine. Infact, I think that should all be obvious.

Films aimed at men tend to have a male protagonist, films aimed at women tend to have a female protagonist. How odd. Oh, and men tend to have more male friends than they do female friends, and women seem to do the same. Isn't this all very odd? I mean, it is... unless you're willing to accept that maybe we do relate to our own gender better in general.

But that would be sexist and sexism is bad, even when it's mandated by nature and can't be helped.

For the sake of your own sanity, walk the fuck away from the conversation.
 

Treblaine

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TomLikesGuitar said:
Treblaine said:
That definition is far too narrow and irrelevant, and is purely semantic anyway. The opposition to female protagonists for no other reason than their gender is wrong, no matter what you call it. Being unable to relate to a character simply because they aren't the same sex as you is BAD! You never added any caveats for "this particular character being female makes it hard to relate because I'm a male" you talked in broad terms, yet now you seem to have recanted it.
I never stated inability to relate, just that it was easier for me to relate to male characters.

Do you really think a lot of girls can relate to Marcus Fenix?

Do you?

I would go so far as to say that there are a lot of girls who can NOT relate to Duke Nukem at all.

Now fem-Link wouldn't be as much of a female caricature
Ok, just to clear this up I mean relate as in empathise with them, to care about them. I don't care if Ganon crushes an insect, I do if he crushes a person, or a character I'm in direct control of.

You didn't originally put it in hyper masculine or hyper feminine caricatures, you stated lack of ability to relate simply for not being the same sex.

I really do thing that anyone will relate to a character they directly control in a video game, even if they are an expressionless robot.

*snip Queen and King stereotypes*
Well that's a nice opinion but not born out by examples in games nor in books or movies.

Women can be militant and men can be emotional, it's clear to see how a man might get angry or upset, you cite Shakespeare when that is mainly about male characters getting very emotional.

The game SHOULD be whatever Nintendo wants it to be.
I can agree with that, as what if in the interest of maximising profits and shilling on Wii Sports fad they turn Zelda series into nothing but "Link's Crossbow Training" where there is no adventure, just casual audience pandering with no adventure, just shallow motion control gimmicks. The creator is not automatically right, even though the creator and audience may have been in agreement early in the series doesn't mean the creator cannot go off the rails later. Like Lucas with what he did to Star Wars.

You think that the game SHOULD have a female in the next one
Hmm, no.

You say that even after I said this:

Treb said:
My point is there COULD be a female protagonist and EVENTUALLY there should be one, but not as the poll said for "the next" as if there was some imperative that it has to be done by the next game.

Miyamoto himself said that the gameplay is more important to him than the story
So what? This isn't a discussion about gameplay relative to story. Gameplay being more important doesn't mean story is irrelevant.

You'd be surprised how much extra work a female Link would be for concept artists, writers, and even programmers and animators
I really would be surprised because that is completely inconceivable that it's any harder to design a female character than a male one.

Have you got ANY evidence for that?
 

aguspal

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OKey I will make this quick:


This comes from a guy thats didnt played/barely played Zelda series so I am neutral it seems. Oh but I know the whole new hero legend thing, and how a female link is actually possible and even the series own created has said so.


But even then, it dosnt seems plausible at all. Just because it is posible dosnt means you HAVE to do it. It would just be asking for troubles and controversies and whatnot. Its just to call attention and say "LOL WE HAVE FEM PROTAGONOSIT LOLOLO" and Nintendo just wont change the series like that, they just... have a formula thats been working for xx years, WHY change it now? They were never a company that makes such changes to their main series, especially needless controversial ones like this one. Doubt it will happen. At least, nowhere near the timeline we are now. (Althougt it would be funny to see the fan reactions, I know I would enjoy it quite a bit).

Dont break what aint broke.


Again, I feel I need to remark, this comes from a 100% neutral person on this subject, at least from the zelda series perspective.


Oh and another thing. Not aganist female protagonists or anything (althougt I dont see it as a big PLUS eaither, I am neutral once again), but we not make said character NEW and not just genderbend a famous hero? If anything I find it insulting to BOTH groups.


Its a necesary evil to combat a greater evil (wow that such a retarded way to explain my point of view LOL).


EDIT: Well, my post is a mild wall of text it seems, not so short as I expected.
 

Treblaine

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Coppernerves said:
If Link was female in Skyward Sword, I think I'd be more engaged by the "plot" of her trying to rescue Zelda, assuming it was out of deep friendship rather than some juvenile infatuation or ridiculous "I'm a knight, chivalry is my code!".
Hmm, good point. Even though it's never really explicitly been there, it may leave that impression that Link's drive to save Zelda is less out of genuine selfless concern and more about some knightly code or possibly romantic reward. That's not quite "courage".

A "Princess and the Pauper" relationship would be interesting, maybe have it so that Zelda and a femme Link coincidentally look identical, and they agree to swap places with common and uncouth Link having to take royal duties while Zelda has to slum it in hiding. This would be an interesting way to play on the ideas of the respective TriForce of Wisdom and Courage mean.

I think that would mix up the formula a bit, but not so much that it isn't a Zelda game any more. Part of the fun of Zelda is the familiarity, the return to tropes, recurring elements often in different forms.

I think the talk of Zelda as a playable character is interesting, what about Ganon as a playable character yet still the bad guy. A few games have done this, even fewer have done it well. The trick is getting the player not to feel like they are working against themselves by having the character introduced in disguise and fighting a common enemy of Hyrule, one he defeats only to further his own power.

One theme I'd like explored is how any one of the TriForce is worthless on its own.

Power is worthless if you are a cowardly bully who doesn't have the wisdom of how to use it. That's key to defeating Ganon, his selfishness and ignorance.

Courage isn't really courage without wisdom to know of the risks, and will end up being foolishness. Also without power, courageous acts can just bee foolish waste of life.

That's the theme of Link's journey, finding the wisdom as well as the power (all the gadgets and magic spells) to defeat Ganon when he has courage natively (from how it's a video game and the player has no fear).
 

Treblaine

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aguspal said:
Just because it is posible dosnt means you HAVE to do it. It would just be asking for troubles and controversies and whatnot. Its just to call attention and say "LOL WE HAVE FEM PROTAGONOSIT LOLOLO"
The best ideas can be ruined by poor execution.

What about if there was a Zelda game* which was riffing on the Prince and the Pauper story, which is all about a commoner trading places with a royal person, BECAUSE by sheer coincidence they look identical - YET they are fundamentally different below the surface (which is where the drama comes in mutual fish out of water scenarios) but learn the values and downsides of each other's lives.

But for such a role switch they'd have to appear the same, it's much more plausible for a female Link than a male Zelda. After all, Zelda is very much a female name, the male form would be "Prince Zeldor".

*(it doesn't HAVE to be the next one)
 

TomLikesGuitar

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Treblaine said:
TomLikesGuitar said:
You'd be surprised how much extra work a female Link would be for concept artists, writers, and even programmers and animators
I really would be surprised because that is completely inconceivable that it's any harder to design a female character than a male one.

Have you got ANY evidence for that?
I'm gonna ignore the rest of your post simply because we're both on two different pages and that's that, but yes I do have evidence for this last part.

First off, like I said, a female character is much harder to animate (and as a result to program). Breasts and hair are super hard. If you like, I can recommend you the animation software I use and you can try it yourself. (Warning, may take a few years before you animate a person.)

The concept artists would have it rough because when you do concept art for a pre-established character, you have something to work off of. Imagine another game coming out with a weird art style, like Wind-Waker. With a male Link, it's just adapting a pre-established character to that new art style. With a female Link, you have to consider a whole slew of things you never thought about. The concept art goes from 5 or 6 pages of male Link doing things in this environment to multiple, multiple drafts of different ideas for how long female Link's hair is, how big her breasts are, does she have makeup, jewelry, does she wear the same clothes... etc... It's a whole new ball game whenever concept artists have to introduce a new character, and a protagonist is going to be worked on longer than almost anyone else.

And the writing problem has been addressed. Even if they do what you say and just make the same story with a girl character, the studio will probably be a mad-house of ideas for ways to make the game more conducive to a female character (having a male lead to stage with her, how she reacts to others, etc.).
 

Genixma

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I can see a Zelda centered Legend of Zelda game. I mean you could play her in tune to the Wind Waker prelude where Ganon returns but Link doesn't, so Zelda has to go across the land. Eventually sealing Ganon away with the power of the gods but drowning the world in water to save the inhabitance from his Evil.
 

Hawkmoon269

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No, I don't think he should.

What the next game should do, is build on Skyward Sword's efforts to make Zelda a more interesting character, who plays a bigger role in the plot than *just* a damsel to be rescued.

The Mario franchise could learn a lesson there.
 

kgpspyguy

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No, link is awesome the way he is and change for the sake of change is always a terrible idea.
 

Squidbulb

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I don't really see the point, although I think having a choice between genders would be nice.
 

JimB

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TomLikesGuitar said:
I tried to use the last post to summarize other people's opinions, and I did; and you both still are incessant with the accusations of sexism.
No, I defined the word. If you think that definition applies to you, then take that up with your conscience and leave me out of it.

TomLikesGuitar said:
I'd like to hope that the sheer amount of people who have disagreed with you here have shown you two that we aren't as sexist as you claim, but your recent posts fail to substantiate this.
...Why would a large number of people agreeing with you somehow immunize you from sexism? There are millions of Muslims who agree that it's totally not sexist to expect women to dress like beekeepers so they won't be able to force men to sin since anything a man does that's sexually provoked is a woman's fault. Those people are still wrong despite the millions of them saying the same thing.

TomLikesGuitar said:
Discrimination can be described simply as understanding the difference between one thing and another.
It can be, but that's not the definition I'm using. I'm using the one that goes something like, "To make a distinction in favor of or against someone based on a group he belongs to rather than his own merits;" and I think you're being disingenuous to represent my position otherwise.

TomLikesGuitar said:
It isn't sexist for men to relate to male characters better. Go ahead, argue that point, but you're wrong and you know it.
Check your crystal ball again there, Kreskin, because it's giving you some pretty crappy readings of what's in my head.

TomLikesGuitar said:
I am also not a sexist by any means.
I don't care.

TomLikesGuitar said:
I like Link better as a guy and your reasoning for why that makes me sexist is some extended universe plot?
No, my reasoning for saying you are offering a sexist opinion (which is not the same thing as being sexist; again, take that one up with your conscience) is that you make a distinction in favor of a male Link based on a group he belongs to.

TomLikesGuitar said:
I think you're fucking nuts for that and need to get off your respective pedestals.
But I like the view from up here.
 

Treblaine

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TomLikesGuitar said:
Treblaine said:
TomLikesGuitar said:
You'd be surprised how much extra work a female Link would be for concept artists, writers, and even programmers and animators
I really would be surprised because that is completely inconceivable that it's any harder to design a female character than a male one.

Have you got ANY evidence for that?
I'm gonna ignore the rest of your post simply because we're both on two different pages and that's that, but yes I do have evidence for this last part.

First off, like I said, a female character is much harder to animate (and as a result to program). Breasts and hair are super hard. If you like, I can recommend you the animation software I use and you can try it yourself. (Warning, may take a few years before you animate a person.)

The concept artists would have it rough because when you do concept art for a pre-established character, you have something to work off of. Imagine another game coming out with a weird art style, like Wind-Waker. With a male Link, it's just adapting a pre-established character to that new art style. With a female Link, you have to consider a whole slew of things you never thought about. The concept art goes from 5 or 6 pages of male Link doing things in this environment to multiple, multiple drafts of different ideas for how long female Link's hair is, how big her breasts are, does she have makeup, jewelry, does she wear the same clothes... etc... It's a whole new ball game whenever concept artists have to introduce a new character, and a protagonist is going to be worked on longer than almost anyone else.

And the writing problem has been addressed. Even if they do what you say and just make the same story with a girl character, the studio will probably be a mad-house of ideas for ways to make the game more conducive to a female character (having a male lead to stage with her, how she reacts to others, etc.).

All those issues are utterly trivial.

Male Link didn't have swinging dong physics, why would female Link have boob physics. It's conceivable she'd just wear the medieval equivalent of a sports bra. Why would a female Link necessitate much longer and harder to animate hair when male link had medium length hair that a farm girl turned adventurer would equally wear her hair.

I actually have some experience with 3D design, which is quite separate from 'animation' which is to do with movement. And from what I can judge, 3D model designers have a lot of experience designing eleven girls, that elven dudes.

The concept artists would have it rough because when you do concept art for a pre-established character, you have something to work off of.
And how is Link being female in any way incompatible with that?

Look, they were able to make a change in design as radical as this:

to this


The broad theme of green tunic with sword and shield are there but it's clearly started again from scratch. Not working off any design template, only a theme.

Wind Waker was trashed by the grim-dark pseudo fans when it was popular to kick Nintendo when they were down, now it's considered massively under-appreciated, citing Wind Waker is an example of good decisions, the problem was the tide was agaisnt Nintendo squeezed between Sony's unstoppable object and Microsoft's immovable force.

The concept art goes from 5 or 6 pages of male Link doing things in this environment to multiple, multiple drafts of different ideas for how long female Link's hair is, how big her breasts are, does she have makeup, jewelry, does she wear the same clothes
That's what good developers do for EVERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER! it's not just female characters or female characters to an exceptional extent.

Or is it somehow worth while for a male character but not a female one? This would be done with every re-design of Link, whether the next one be male or female.

That's not a rhetorical question and it deserves and explanation as you are listing how they would go into a lot of detail with a female character as a problem, when surely you must know they pay as much attention to the design of a male character.

the studio will probably be a mad-house of ideas for ways to make the game more conducive to a female character (having a male lead to stage with her, how she reacts to others, etc.).
Why? And what's the problem with a creative department having lots of ideas and thought... that's exactly what they are paid for.
 

TomLikesGuitar

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Treblaine said:
All those issues are utterly trivial.

Male Link didn't have swinging dong physics, why would female Link have boob physics. It's conceivable she'd just wear the medieval equivalent of a sports bra. Why would a female Link necessitate much longer and harder to animate hair when male link had medium length hair that a farm girl turned adventurer would equally wear her hair.

I actually have some experience with 3D design, which is quite separate from 'animation' which is to do with movement. And from what I can judge, 3D model designers have a lot of experience designing eleven girls, that elven dudes.

The concept artists would have it rough because when you do concept art for a pre-established character, you have something to work off of.
And how is Link being female in any way incompatible with that?

Look, they were able to make a change in design as radical as this:

to this


The broad theme of green tunic with sword and shield are there but it's clearly started again from scratch. Not working off any design template, only a theme.

Wind Waker was trashed by the grim-dark pseudo fans when it was popular to kick Nintendo when they were down, now it's considered massively under-appreciated, citing Wind Waker is an example of good decisions, the problem was the tide was agaisnt Nintendo squeezed between Sony's unstoppable object and Microsoft's immovable force.

The concept art goes from 5 or 6 pages of male Link doing things in this environment to multiple, multiple drafts of different ideas for how long female Link's hair is, how big her breasts are, does she have makeup, jewelry, does she wear the same clothes
That's what good developers do for EVERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER! it's not just female characters or female characters to an exceptional extent.

Or is it somehow worth while for a male character but not a female one? This would be done with every re-design of Link, whether the next one be male or female.

That's not a rhetorical question and it deserves and explanation as you are listing how they would go into a lot of detail with a female character as a problem, when surely you must know they pay as much attention to the design of a male character.

the studio will probably be a mad-house of ideas for ways to make the game more conducive to a female character (having a male lead to stage with her, how she reacts to others, etc.).
Why? And what's the problem with a creative department having lots of ideas and thought... that's exactly what they are paid for.
I'm sorry, I honestly can't explain to you how else you're wrong.

You'd really have to do some work in the business to understand release schedules and the technical know how that you're kind of ignorant about.

You're saying a lot of things that are just flat out not true as fact here, so I'm just gonna go.
 

Treblaine

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TomLikesGuitar said:
I'm sorry, I honestly can't explain to you how else you're wrong.
Wait, how "else" I am wrong? I've refuted all your point and you have nothing more to say.

Maybe I'm not wrong? Or maybe I am wrong, but there is no reason at this time that either of us can think of for how I might be wrong.

You'd really have to do some work in the business to understand release schedules and the technical know how that you're kind of ignorant about.

You're saying a lot of things that are just flat out not true as fact here, so I'm just gonna go.
Like what? What did I say that is flat out not true? In what way?

How do I know you are not just saying that?
 

TomLikesGuitar

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Treblaine said:
The concept artists would have it rough because when you do concept art for a pre-established character, you have something to work off of.
And how is Link being female in any way incompatible with that?

Look, they were able to make a change in design as radical as this:

to this


The broad theme of green tunic with sword and shield are there but it's clearly started again from scratch. Not working off any design template, only a theme.

Wind Waker was trashed by the grim-dark pseudo fans when it was popular to kick Nintendo when they were down, now it's considered massively under-appreciated, citing Wind Waker is an example of good decisions, the problem was the tide was agaisnt Nintendo squeezed between Sony's unstoppable object and Microsoft's immovable force.
As is still the problem and a simplistic cell-shaded overhaul would not do well. Taking something and "downgrading" it to cell-shading is a joke for concept artists. Sure they did have a lot of changes, but the art style makes up for it.

A new Zelda would require a lot of detail and wouldn't be cell-shaded.

That's what good developers do for EVERY IMPORTANT CHARACTER! it's not just female characters or female characters to an exceptional extent.

Or is it somehow worth while for a male character but not a female one? This would be done with every re-design of Link, whether the next one be male or female.

That's not a rhetorical question and it deserves and explanation as you are listing how they would go into a lot of detail with a female character as a problem, when surely you must know they pay as much attention to the design of a male character.
Female characters actually do require a lot more detailing, features, and accessories and I cited a lot before. A female protagoniset would be enough of a change that it would be like concepting for WW, but harder because im sure it would be a legitimate upgrade graphically if it was to be made soon.

Why? And what's the problem with a creative department having lots of ideas and thought... that's exactly what they are paid for.
Time management for the development team.

Each second spent on art is a second wasted on gameplay.