Poll: Should Link be female in the next Lengend Of Zelda

[TomLikesGuitar]

When "This is how it's always done" is your defense, you are implicitly arguing that it is self-justifying. That might not be your intent, but there's no way to say those words without that being a component.

I'm gonna drop this as it has no bearing what-so-ever on anything, but "This is how it's always been done." wasn't a defense. The sentence basically just says that Zelda has never pandered to any group and that it would be stupid to now.

So why can't the knight be female? If you're fighting to keep the roles traditional because that's the way it's always done, aren't you effectively saying that you want to hear the same story over and over with as little variation as possible?

It's been said before, if you want a different game, play a different game. Or just wait for a game where you play as Zelda.

Regardless of what crazy progressive bullshit you might think, males and females have a very unique dynamic that couldn't be accomplished by two females.

A male knight rescuing a female princess is a motif that works VERY well.

I wish you would have, because your original claim was that "a lot" of themes are damaged by Link's boobs. You provided three. I find it suspicious.

Let's drop this one too. You're going to disagree with anything I say or argue the semantics of the word theme anyway.

It doesn't matter if it's a theme or not, it's about the consistency of the theory.

I don't think I can support that definition when the fiction is interactive and the vessel for interaction is an avatar character; the medium reduces the other characters to something more akin to plot devices than to leads. But thank you for answering the question.

Oh.

Well you're wrong.

I don't really know why you're arguing about the definition of the word lead seeing as how it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING, but there are leads in any work of fiction.

It's basic writing terminology.

But for you, we can refer to them as "Characters who have a substantial, direct impact on the story for the audience."

Is that better?

I'm not categorically opposed to the idea, but given what I've seen of attempts to make the female quest trophy into a playable character (play as Peach and defeat the villains with the power of PMS-fueled emotions! Play as Peach in seven cut scenes, six of which she gets naked for!), I have more faith in a female Link than a protagonist Zelda.

I've never heard of a Peach game like that? I don't remember much nudity in SMB2, but I didn't play it a lot.

Tell me though, what exactly makes you think that swapping Link's gender would make for a stronger female lead... I mean a stronger female character who has a substantial, direct impact on the story for the audience, than using Zelda, who is already a strong female character who has a substantial, direct impact on the story for the audience.

Zelda isn't oversexualized, nor is her role as a woman overplayed.

You won't get your strong female[...]

I reject your belief that it is categorically impossible for a female Link to serve exactly the same role male Link does.

It's just really damn likely that it will be poorly done.

[...]and after ~25+ years of the same main character, I'll be forced to change the way I think of him (I really don't want to do that...I like Link a LOT as a character).

So it's an either-or choice where only one of us gets to be happy? Sorry, man, but I do not have a whole lot of martyrdom in me, and I'm not likely to pick your happiness at the expense of my own without being much better friends with you that we currently are.

Trust me, I don't like you in the slightest bit as a person, but that's not important.

I'm saying that Nintendo isn't going to risk fucking up a great character because a select few people think it might be a good idea.

Most people here don't want Link female. Just go play a game that has a strong female protagonist rather than stealing it.

Hell, it's almost offensive that you think a strong female protagonist would be more likely to come from a male one rather than as a standalone character.

I would like a female avatar because I have been projecting onto "boy gets magic penis extension* and dickwaves wizard to death" since like 1985. I'm ready for a change.

Then play a game that isn't about that? It's not exactly hard.

...

I'll be honest, I don't care if this game gets made. It's not a huge deal to me.

My opinion is that it's a stupid idea. That's it. It's an unnecessary change with no effect on gameplay in a game that Miyamoto himself has said is MUCH more concentrated on gameplay than plot.

If you want to dig into the plot and find a reason why Link could change into a girl for the next game, go ahead.

He could also be a transsexual midget in the next game.

I've just yet to hear a great reason to change something about the formula of the game other than, "Well it could be worked into the overarching rarely mentioned plot that ties the games."

And that's not a good enough reason.

If you want the last word, that's fine, but what I can say as a fact is that this game will not be made because it is a bad idea for Nintendo and potentially dangerous for the series.

If someone can come up with an idea for game that requires Link to swap genders, then MAYBE it will hold some merit. But just remember, PLOT ALWAYS COMES AFTER GAMEPLAY.

 

[Emil Ek]

I'm sorry but what?

I'm a rather big fan of Zelda and I'm all for more female main characters in games, but why take an already established character and make it a genderswap? Taking a big, recognizable male character and making him female wouldn't do anything good in a series where him being female would not really do anything, gives the change no impact. How about you instead go and play a game with a good female protagonist or make it heard you want really good games with good female protagonists.

 

[JimB]

It's been said before, if you want a different game, play a different game.

So you're arguing that Zelda games should all be the same game repeated over and over? I know that's kind of an endemic problem among sequels, but god damn, mix up the formula just a little bit.

Regardless of what crazy progressive bullshit you might think, males and females have a very unique dynamic that couldn't be accomplished by two females.

Okay, I'll ask: What crazy progressive bullshit do I think? And please cite your sources.

I don't really know why you're arguing about the definition of the word lead seeing as how it has NOTHING TO DO WITH ANYTHING, but there are leads in any work of fiction.

I'm arguing about it because you're saying I shouldn't want to play a female character on the grounds that there are female NPCs to talk to.

But for you, we can refer to them as "Characters who have a substantial, direct impact on the story for the audience." Is that better?

Sure.

I'm not categorically opposed to the idea, but given what I've seen of attempts to make the female quest trophy into a playable character (play as Peach and defeat the villains with the power of PMS-fueled emotions! Play as Peach in seven cut scenes, six of which she gets naked for!), I have more faith in a female Link than a protagonist Zelda.

I've never heard of a Peach game like that.

The first one is, um, I think its title is Super Princess Peach, for the Nintendo DS. The second one is Paper Mario: the Thousand-Year Door.

I don't remember much nudity in Super Mario Brothers 2, but I didn't play it a lot.

I don't really consider that a Mario game, since it was originally released as a Famicom game with different characters whose translation got Mario sprites swapped in for marketing recognition.

Tell me, though, what exactly makes you think that swapping Link's gender would make for a stronger female lead...I mean a stronger female character who has a substantial, direct impact on the story for the audience, than using Zelda, who is already a strong female character who has a substantial, direct impact on the story for the audience.

I'm not at all sure I know what you mean by "stronger," sort of like how I don't know how you measure relative levels of power between characters in this game, so my answer may not satisfy the terms of your question. That said, I would find it more interesting because it would force the player to examine his views on gender roles and whether gender roles have any meaning in a magical society where chauvinism has no foundation in useful facts. It would make an interesting parallel for first world society, where technology has advanced to the point that women are capable of nearly any job a man is and gender roles are no longer useful.

This would be preferable to me over having Zelda as a protagonist partly because of an admittedly prejudiced dread I have of seeing quest reward objects turned into playable characters (see the Princess Peach stuff, above), and partly because Zelda is a sorcerer, a blaster; someone who isn't allowed to participate in physical combat because that would threaten male audience members, so she has to be physically weaker and reliant upon gimmicks rather than strength or skill so the men can still feel secure knowing they could overpower her.

...Okay, as I reread that last paragraph, I admit it's not entirely fair. Certainly, I'm not speaking about the male audience as a single, homogenous whole with uniform reactions to various stimuli; each individual responds differently. Nevertheless, there's enough truth in it that I don't mind letting it stand, albeit with this disclaimer attached.

It's just really damn likely that it will be poorly done.

It's hard, so don't even bother trying?

Trust me, I don't like you in the slightest bit as a person, but that's not important.

Heh. It's apparently important enough for you to go out of your way to say so. I just hope you're not expecting my feelings to be hurt.

Most people here don't want Link female. Just go play a game that has a strong female protagonist rather than stealing it.

Emphasis mine.

There is a lot I could say here, mostly about how sadly amusing and predictable it is that when certain kinds of privileged people are faced with seeing diversity, they consider the presence of minorities to be a personal crime against them, taking what's rightfully theirs. I don't have the energy to get into it right now, though (bad shrimp lo mein...urg), so I just wanted to take this opportunity to deliver the textual equivalent of a smug smirk.

Hell, it's almost offensive that you think a strong female protagonist would be more likely to come from a male one rather than as a standalone character.

Horseshoes and hand grenades.

If you want the last word, that's fine [...]

Heh. Damned magnanimous of you to offer to let me say something you have no ability to prevent me from saying.

[...] but what I can say as a fact is that this game will not be made because it is a bad idea for Nintendo and potentially dangerous for the series.

It was a bad idea for Taco Bell to stop cutting their beef with sand and potentially dangerous for profits by making them buy more meat. Nevertheless, they listened to complaints and now seem to be doing just fine.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

It was a bad idea for Taco Bell to stop cutting their beef with sand and potentially dangerous for profits by making them buy more meat. Nevertheless, they listened to complaints and now seem to be doing just fine.

Ladies and gentlemen...

JimB's last word.

As confusing, illogical, and unrelated to the subject at hand as nearly every single other thing he said.

I hope you and Treblaine enjoy demonizing and insulting everyone else who disagrees with you...

I'm out.

 

[Treblaine]

Most people here don't want Link female.

Actually the Poll is "Should Link be female in the next Legend Of Zelda?"

When the more interesting point is "would it ever work". The difference between immediate obligation for the next game, and whether it would ever work.

That was covered in this post:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/jump/9.397517.16247047

And it's apparent a lot of people have some incorrect assumptions about the Zelda series, like that Link is a single character like Samus of Metroid that would need to be retconned into a different sex. But that's not the case at all.

You drop terms like "progressive agenda" well what about your "entitlements"? You feel entitled to have a male Link for no other reason than you've gotten used to it, that any further inclusion (as the Zelda lore allows) is some kind of theft. Pure entitlement.

 

[JimB]

I'm out.

So you were arguing in bad faith before when you directly asked me for answers, because this entire time, you'd been intending to quit the conversation no matter what I said? Okay. Can't say I find that surprising, but it's good to know all the same.

 

[Bruenin]

so three goddesses that are great and holy and good, the Princess Zelda who is already a strong female character with magic and even helped you fight Ganon and now you want to turn Link into a female too?

so... you'll have a game where all the good people are female and the giant pig monster (Ganon) is the only male main character and you're going to say it's progressive?

Why not just have Zelda be the main character... the entire world could be seen from another point of view and you'd get a different look into the Zelda universe and you'd actually have a strong female character instead of giving a traditionally male character a sex change :/

The reincarnation argument is kind of shallow... Link always came back with a green tunic, always fought the same exact way, with the same hair and eye color and he's always been the same race and gender, the only things that ever changed was his age, and sometimes the sword he used. I mean hell, he's even been proficient with the same HAND through every single reincarnation (outside of the Wii version of Twilight Princess because it was changed to be player friendly and in the Gamecube version he's still left handed) There have been a few constants regarding the reincarnations. He's always talked about as a singular character even though each one has a different story and background because the variations are so minuscule it barely even matters :/

I don't think gender bending = progressive

 

[JimB]

So three goddesses that are great and holy and good; the Princess Zelda, who is already a strong female character with magic and even helped you fight Ganon; and now you want to turn Link into a female too?

So... you'll have a game where all the good people are female and the giant pig monster (Ganon) is the only male main character, and you're going to say it's progressive?

This is a very weird sentiment to me. Oh, I don't mean the bit about the unfortunate implications of all-female protagonists teaming up against the sole, male villain; that part makes sense, though I think it has a mistaken foundation. The part that's weird to me is where you draw the line here at who counts as being in the games and who doesn't.

If you wanted to say Link, Zelda, and Ganon were the only three characters, that would have made rather more sense to me, but when you include the goddesses, whom I have never once seen interact with any of the characters beyond providing a creation myth for the world that we didn't especially need, then you open the door to add in every other supporting character in the games. So why did you stop at the goddesses? Why didn't you include Malon, or Valoo, or the apparently exclusively male population of the Rito (save for Medli), Darunia, the Great Deku Tree, Linebeck, or blah blah blah you get the point?

Is it because you think those characters are transitory, belonging only in the specific games they appear in, whereas the goddesses appear in all of them? I can't agree with that assessment: If they only appear in backstory, then I can't convince myself that they count. Maybe I'm misreading you here, and I invite you to explain yourself if I'm wrong.

And in any event, if we want to make a big deal out of persecuting the antagonist, then if female Link and Zelda aligning against Ganon is symbolism of all femininity uniting against masculinity, why isn't male Link and Zelda aligning against Ganon a symbol of femininity and its pussywhipped self-hating mind-controlled mangina slaves uniting against masculinity?

Link always came back with a green tunic, always fought the same exact way, with the same hair and eye color and he's always been the same race and gender, the only things that ever changed was his age, and sometimes the sword he used.

Er, I'm reasonably sure the underlined parts are demonstrably untrue.

 

[Bruenin]

So three goddesses that are great and holy and good; the Princess Zelda, who is already a strong female character with magic and even helped you fight Ganon; and now you want to turn Link into a female too?

So... you'll have a game where all the good people are female and the giant pig monster (Ganon) is the only male main character, and you're going to say it's progressive?

This is a very weird sentiment to me. Oh, I don't mean the bit about the unfortunate implications of all-female protagonists teaming up against the sole, male villain; that part makes sense, though I think it has a mistaken foundation. The part that's weird to me is where you draw the line here at who counts as being in the games and who doesn't.

If you wanted to say Link, Zelda, and Ganon were the only three characters, that would have made rather more sense to me, but when you include the goddesses, whom I have never once seen interact with any of the characters beyond providing a creation myth for the world that we didn't especially need, then you open the door to add in every other supporting character in the games. So why did you stop at the goddesses? Why didn't you include Malon, or Valoo, or the apparently exclusively male population of the Rito (save for Medli), Darunia, the Great Deku Tree, Linebeck, or blah blah blah you get the point?

Is it because you think those characters are transitory, belonging only in the specific games they appear in, whereas the goddesses appear in all of them? I can't agree with that assessment: If they only appear in backstory, then I can't convince myself that they count. Maybe I'm misreading you here, and I invite you to explain yourself if I'm wrong.

And in any event, if we want to make a big deal out of persecuting the antagonist, then if female Link and Zelda aligning against Ganon is symbolism of all femininity uniting against masculinity, why isn't male Link and Zelda aligning against Ganon a symbol of femininity and its pussywhipped self-hating mind-controlled mangina slaves uniting against masculinity?

Link always came back with a green tunic, always fought the same exact way, with the same hair and eye color and he's always been the same race and gender, the only things that ever changed was his age, and sometimes the sword he used.

Er, I'm reasonably sure the underlined parts are demonstrably untrue.

Great Deku Tree is a plant but I guess you could call him male, you never really see his Wisdom as he dies off rather early, Malon couldn't even take care of his daughter and ended up falling asleep while his daughter had to take care of herself, his servant was a sleezy guy who do anything for money and even took over his farm and was just a bit of a dick about it, and the mask salesman is alright I suppose, but he almost caused an Apocalypse by finding Majora's mask and then having it stolen, and even the Shrub kid is also a guy... remember he tried to crush an entire city with a moon? The faries that help you are female, except for that one brother who gives you a single tip and that's about it :/, and all the magic you get is from those giant female faries...

truthfully I kind of fell out of the loop really, Last game I've fully played was Wind Waker so they probably have many more fleshed out and balanced characters and such now.

I tried playing Phantom hourglass but I got bored halfway through >.<, the boat from Wind Waker is awesome though

Regarding the underlined part: I know he got Brown hair in the cartoon and maybe the first or second game :/ I realized that after, weren't his eyes always blue though? When has he not fought with a sword and shield? That's always been his main thing.

I still think Zelda would be the best idea, it keeps Link as is, creates a strong female character, and lets them built on everything, from preexisting characters to lore through a different point of view. Everyone wins and you don't need to gender bend. I know it's a bit of a change from the standard Zelda style... but people are already asking for variety so what's the difference really.

 

[Treblaine]

When has he not fought with a sword and shield?

Zelda games are well known for having such a wide selection of varying weapons, item and equipment.

But all that has nothing to do with who the protagonist is, if a 9 year old boy can go on all these adventures, then certainly a girl can as well.

The point raised was that the protagonist has changed in APPEARANCE, but he's done the same variety of things. A girl in that role could do the same.

and you're going to say it's progressive?

Not JimB, nor I or anyone in this thread have had "progressivism" be the basis of a female Link being good.

In fact it's only been the opponents of a female Link who have brought up progressivism.

It's simply a matter of being true to the lore of Zelda is why I support the possibility (or even inevitability) of a female Link. And not kowtowing to the expectation of outsiders who - as one poster arguing against a female Link put it - "don't know and don't care" about what happened in Zelda games.

 

[danon]

By this point i think i would prefer if every protagonist turned female because then maybe we would see a great decline in number of started gender threads.

 

[Verlander]

Definitely, or give the option. Why not? Make Zelda gender optional too

 

[Darkbladex96]

There are ways to mess up a female link. First and foremost would be making the exact same game and forcing Link to be female. A gender choice option should be used in that scenario.

But if Link it to be female, it should be at the reinvention the series, not because link is a female(well actually because of this), but because it would seem like a new chance to actually make link a character.

 

[k7avenger]

Well you could turn link female, but you'd only be doing it because you can. It wouldn't confer some deep meaning or significance in the grand scheme however. You'd simply be doing it for attention.

 

[JimB]

Great Deku Tree is a plant but I guess you could call him male [...]

I was referring more to gender than sex, but fair enough. A mustache does not a man make.

[...] Malon couldn't even take care of his daughter and ended up falling asleep while his daughter had to take care of herself [...]

True, but you get a bottle from him, so he's about as necessary as support characters get in a Zelda game.

[...] the mask salesman is alright I suppose, but he almost caused an apocalypse by finding Majora's mask and then having it stolen [...]

I can't comment on that one. I kind of hate Majora's Mask, and have never gotten more than an hour into it before quitting out of boredom.

[...] and all the magic you get is from those giant female fairies.

True enough, though I do wonder if it's possible to include male fairies without begging every juvenile little fucker on the planet to start making homophobic slurs.

Anyway, this is getting off-track. Let me ask you something: What's your complaint, here? You think there are too many women in Zelda games who matter, and Link needs to be male to...balance the world, I guess? A kind of sexual algebra equation?

Weren't his eyes always blue though?

I believe they were brown in the original NES games, but I can't swear to that and am willing to drop the point if you like.

When has he not fought with a sword and shield?

Oh, that's what you mean by "fighting style." I misunderstood you; I had been talking about the evolution of his fighting techniques and their movement away from a basically Western fighting style to a more Eastern one.

But to answer your question, both sword and shield are optional, selectable sub-items in Link's Awakening, Oracle of Ages, and Oracle of Seasons, like his boomerang or hookshot or what have you.

 

[Bruenin]

snip

I don't have a complaint really I just don't think they should make Link female, it'd be a bit of a hassle story telling wise because they have an audience that expects a male character and they'd have to deal with that and it'd just be easier to star Zelda.

You asked about the Goddess thing so i'm just trying to find a way to explain my reasoning better

 

[tofulove]

i don't think link should be a girl, but it be interesting to see zelda go on a epic adventure to save link for a change.

 

[chipshop hendrix]

there should be an option to choose link's gender.

 

[Johny64]

How about a game where you play as Zelda, but instead of saving Link, Ganondorf (or Zant or Demise or someone) corrupted Link, so now he's a Darth Vader type villain. And make Link a female.