Poll: Should PC joypad users be able to use auto-aim in on-line FPS games?

Elamdri

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ph0b0s123 said:
Elamdri said:
It's not "Cheating" as it doesn't really result in an advantage to the player, in fact, the player is still disadvantaged by having to use the thumbstick.
It's not cheating on consoles as everyone gets the same benefit as everyone is forced to use the same control method. That is not the same on the PC with the freedom to use different control methods. One control method should not be given aids, just because it could not compete otherwise.

Consoles need auto aim as you have no option to use a mouse. PC's you do, so if you still want to use a joypad then you get fully exposed to how it is in comparison.
So you're going to permanently regulate certain players to always be inferior based solely on what input mechanism they choose to use? That seems rather crappy to me.
 

Elamdri

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Humanoid333 said:
Elamdri said:
Humanoid333 said:
Aim assist, depending on how it's implemented, could or could not put the joypad users at an advantage. No aim assist would lead to joypad users being utterly destroyed by mouse users. I'm tempted to say yes, joypad users should get aim assist, but only a mild form of it.
What is a "mild form" of aim assist? I think you're confusing aim assisting with aimbotting.
I may be speaking from ignorance here, so my apologies if I am totally wrong about this, but I think that aim-assist works by moving your aim toward the enemy closest to your crosshair (which does sound like an aimbot, now that you mention it...). So a mild form would be moving your shots toward the target only if your crosshair is already a very small distance from it.
Well, understand that when people talk about "aim assist" the term actually encompasses a number of different things that a game can do. This is all from an article in Game Informer about how Bungie changed console FPS targeting systems

When most people say "Aim Assist" what they mean is Snapping. Snapping is where the game actually takes the crosshairs of a gun and moves them towards the target. This isn't so prevalent in more modern FPS games, but it is still around, although it's as you describe "mild." Snapping is a incredibly watered down version of aim-botting, where the computer just puts the reticule right over the target.

Acceleration is another type of aim assist in games. Acceleration is where when a player moves a joystick, it does not instantly move at top speed. This prevents a player from trying to aim at an enemy very close to the player and accidentally moving the crosshair all the way to the edge of the screen. With acceleration, the crosshair picks up speed the more the player moves it, until they reach max speed.

Friction is basically slowing down the reticle as it passes over an enemy target. If the player is turning and targets an enemy, the targeting will slow. In Bungie games, if a player is turning and takes their thumb off the Thumbstick, the reticle will coast a little before stopping. If they target a player while moving, the reticle will slow down, and if they take their thumb off the thumbstick while targeting a player, the reticle will stop rather than coast.

Magnetism is unique to Halo games, but it is basically once you've found your target, Magnetism allows you to follow the target once it starts moving.

These systems are necessary for console FPS games since a joystick alone doesn't allow you the same level of control necessary to play that a mouse offers.
 

Kaymish

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Sep 10, 2008
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well i don't know it requires testing and i don't have access to such data if i were to hazard a guess i would say no PC players should not have access to the auto aim consoles need because mouse and keyboard are so far superior
 

Elamdri

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Kaymish said:
well i don't know it requires testing and i don't have access to such data if i were to hazard a guess i would say no PC players should not have access to the auto aim consoles need because mouse and keyboard are so far superior
The question isn't about mouse and keyboard users, but whether people who play on a PC but use a joystick input system should be able to have access to aim assist.
 

ph0b0s123

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Elamdri said:
ph0b0s123 said:
Elamdri said:
It's not "Cheating" as it doesn't really result in an advantage to the player, in fact, the player is still disadvantaged by having to use the thumbstick.
It's not cheating on consoles as everyone gets the same benefit as everyone is forced to use the same control method. That is not the same on the PC with the freedom to use different control methods. One control method should not be given aids, just because it could not compete otherwise.

Consoles need auto aim as you have no option to use a mouse. PC's you do, so if you still want to use a joypad then you get fully exposed to how it is in comparison.
So you're going to permanently regulate certain players to always be inferior based solely on what input mechanism they choose to use? That seems rather crappy to me.
Yes, it will seem crappy if you are coming from a console environment and I sympathise. But in what other competitive activity do you give people who can't perform aids to help them compete (except golf).

As has been the thread going through all your posts, you admit auto aim is in place because joypads are inferior to mice. In which case use an inferior control method, get an inferior performance. What's wrong with that.
 

Watchmacallit

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Auto aim is horrible...I bought BlOps on PS3, regrettably, and was able to detect people coming around corners with auto aim. That, to me, is cheating.
 

mrF00bar

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For me auto-aim is just an acceptable way to aimbot, sure on the consoles its understandable but not on the PC. Why you use a controller for a PC FPS? A mouse is so much more accurate.
 

LandoCristo

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I didn't see UT3 players on the PS3 who elected to use a mouse and keyboard using auto-aim. Because M+K is intrinsically better.
 

ph0b0s123

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Wilson Driesens said:
I didn't see UT3 players on the PS3 who elected to use a mouse and keyboard using auto-aim. Because M+K is intrinsically better.
That's I assume because auto aim designed for a joypads, is more of a hindrance than an aid when applied to a mouse....
 

DarkTenka

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I can only think of how this would be an exploiter's wet dream.

Consider the ability to use a keyboard/mouse emulator with a joypad. (Assuming the joypad has an analog stick) Which I'm sure it would in this day and age, then the mouse emulates the joypad movement rather easily. Sub keyboard commands for the buttons and BAM! .. some exploiter now has the best of both worlds.

I don't know how they can reasonably detect this either ..
 

Arkzism

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i frankly hate using auto aim... it pained me to use it in red dead but well i could barley see anything so was impossible with out it... and i prefer keyboard and mouse to controller, but even with controller auto aim goes for the torso you dont get good shots using it either
 

Elamdri

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ph0b0s123 said:
Elamdri said:
So you're going to permanently regulate certain players to always be inferior based solely on what input mechanism they choose to use? That seems rather crappy to me.
Yes, it will seem crappy if you are coming from a console environment and I sympathise. But in what other competitive activity do you give people who can't perform aids to help them compete (except golf).

As has been the thread going through all your posts, you admit auto aim is in place because joypads are inferior to mice. In which case use an inferior control method, get an inferior performance. What's wrong with that.
Having played both PC and Console FPS games, I can't myself figure out why one would chose to use a joystick on a PC over a mouse. However, I can't come up with a good reason NOT to offer users of a joystick the option of being somewhat competitive vs. players who use mice to aim. The problem I have with your "use inferior controls, get inferior results" argument is that it's needless. We have the code in place to increase the effectiveness of joystick controls, mice are still superior, and so long as you give it a toggle on/off option, mice players aren't effected. Essentially, if we have the capability to fix it, why not fix it?

To me it's win/win. Joystick players can use their preferred method of control on a PC without suffering as much from the detrimental effect of using a joystick to aim. Mouse users still maintain a superior position over Joystick users, but now have the added benefit of having a slightly more challenging experience vs. joystick users.
 

Quesa

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I can't understand how anyone can derive satisfaction from playing multiplayer with aiming assistance. It was fun to go up against cheaters in CS 1.x though, one deag > aimbot :D
 

ph0b0s123

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Ephraim J. Witchwood said:
Yes, but with an option to turn it off if they want to. If they want to put themselves at a disadvantage against the people playing on KB/M, then they can do that. Aim assist (not auto-aim, that's something completely different) is part of playing with a gamepad, regardless of what platform you are on, but if you don't want it, there should be an option to shut it off.

Really wish I had that in console games...
Have to disagree, auto aim is not a right just because you are using a joypad.
Elamdri said:
ph0b0s123 said:
Elamdri said:
So you're going to permanently regulate certain players to always be inferior based solely on what input mechanism they choose to use? That seems rather crappy to me.
Yes, it will seem crappy if you are coming from a console environment and I sympathise. But in what other competitive activity do you give people who can't perform aids to help them compete (except golf).

As has been the thread going through all your posts, you admit auto aim is in place because joypads are inferior to mice. In which case use an inferior control method, get an inferior performance. What's wrong with that.
Having played both PC and Console FPS games, I can't myself figure out why one would chose to use a joystick on a PC over a mouse. However, I can't come up with a good reason NOT to offer users of a joystick the option of being somewhat competitive vs. players who use mice to aim. The problem I have with your "use inferior controls, get inferior results" argument is that it's needless. We have the code in place to increase the effectiveness of joystick controls, mice are still superior, and so long as you give it a toggle on/off option, mice players aren't effected. Essentially, if we have the capability to fix it, why not fix it?

To me it's win/win. Joystick players can use their preferred method of control on a PC without suffering as much from the detrimental effect of using a joystick to aim. Mouse users still maintain a superior position over Joystick users, but now have the added benefit of having a slightly more challenging experience vs. joystick users.
If the only way joypad users will play on-line with mouse users is if they have auto aim, I would rather not play with them. Yes, I know it is anti-social, but on-line matches are not a charity either. Where's the pride in your control method, you are like the disabled of the gaming world needing special ramps and stuff to get around. No offence to disabled people reading. But you get my point.

This is not some social game like farmville where we want everyone to be involved even if they aren't very good, this is survival of the fittest....
 

Continuity

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Elamdri said:
ph0b0s123 said:
Elamdri said:
So you're going to permanently regulate certain players to always be inferior based solely on what input mechanism they choose to use? That seems rather crappy to me.
Yes, it will seem crappy if you are coming from a console environment and I sympathise. But in what other competitive activity do you give people who can't perform aids to help them compete (except golf).

As has been the thread going through all your posts, you admit auto aim is in place because joypads are inferior to mice. In which case use an inferior control method, get an inferior performance. What's wrong with that.
Having played both PC and Console FPS games, I can't myself figure out why one would chose to use a joystick on a PC over a mouse. However, I can't come up with a good reason NOT to offer users of a joystick the option of being somewhat competitive vs. players who use mice to aim. The problem I have with your "use inferior controls, get inferior results" argument is that it's needless. We have the code in place to increase the effectiveness of joystick controls, mice are still superior, and so long as you give it a toggle on/off option, mice players aren't effected. Essentially, if we have the capability to fix it, why not fix it?

To me it's win/win. Joystick players can use their preferred method of control on a PC without suffering as much from the detrimental effect of using a joystick to aim. Mouse users still maintain a superior position over Joystick users, but now have the added benefit of having a slightly more challenging experience vs. joystick users.
The problem is: What if the joypad users start winning? their skill/controls are being propped up aim assistance... could you take the result seriously if a player using a controller and aim assistance won a competition knocking out M+kb players?

Its like the runners in the paralympics who use blades... should they be allowed to compete in the ordinary olympics? what if they win? will the other runners then chop their feet of and replace them with blades to be competitive?

Bottom line, you cant have assisted players competing with unassisted players.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/6292786.stm
 

Weaver

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Apr 28, 2008
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Back in my day people who used aimbots were banned from severs and/or had their accounts blacklisted. Now they're fucking features of the game.

How far gaming has fallen.
 

Elamdri

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Continuity said:
Elamdri said:
Having played both PC and Console FPS games, I can't myself figure out why one would chose to use a joystick on a PC over a mouse. However, I can't come up with a good reason NOT to offer users of a joystick the option of being somewhat competitive vs. players who use mice to aim. The problem I have with your "use inferior controls, get inferior results" argument is that it's needless. We have the code in place to increase the effectiveness of joystick controls, mice are still superior, and so long as you give it a toggle on/off option, mice players aren't effected. Essentially, if we have the capability to fix it, why not fix it?

To me it's win/win. Joystick players can use their preferred method of control on a PC without suffering as much from the detrimental effect of using a joystick to aim. Mouse users still maintain a superior position over Joystick users, but now have the added benefit of having a slightly more challenging experience vs. joystick users.
The problem is: What if the joypad users start winning? their skill/controls are being propped up aim assistance... could you take the result seriously if a player using a controller and aim assistance won a competition knocking out M+kb players?

Its like the runners in the paralympics who use blades... should they be allowed to compete in the ordinary olympics? what if they win? will the other runners then chop their feet of and replace them with blades to be competitive?

Bottom line, you cant have assisted players competing with unassisted players.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/athletics/6292786.stm
I could see and understand that within a competitive environment, like MLG, although I don't know any MLG PC gamers who would use joysticks. But for just casual online play, it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to me to disallow the option. I can't conceive of a joystick player receiving SO much aim assistance from a game that he/she could CONSISTENTLY beat a player of equal skill using a mouse. Because really, that's the concern, that all things being equal, aim assist on a joystick would tip the scales too often to be explained by random chance, and I just don't think that's the case.

Tangentially: If a fully-abled athelete can't beat a dude with PROSTHETIC legs in a race, then you just need to man the hell up and grow a pair. Don't come around to me complaining about him not producing lactic acid and bull like that. He's not the 6 Million Dollar Man.