Poll: Skyrim: Empire or Stormcloaks?
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Neither- and I'm a little embarrassed that so few others think so, too. "Racism" is much less of a sticking point when you're talking about different and unrelated species (remember that even the Redguards aren't Nedic); assuming that it carries the same weight it would in our world is punishing people for an opinion. That's a bad thing. I'm also kind of baffled why so many of you seem to think that the Summerset Isles aren't part of Tamriel, but that's perhaps more understandable.
I think we all owe Julian LeFay an apology.
Here's the thing: it's not the Roman empire in a fashion. It's the Roman empire, full stop. Making the Imperials into a race was (so far as lore is concerned, at least) the stupidest decision Bethesda ever made (and considering half of Skyrim and almost the whole of Oblivion, that's saying something). It removed the slightest possibility for any real subtlety or ambiguity. The only thing worse is the Thalmor; they're nothing but Nazis, down to the outfits.ExDeath730 said:
Sktrim hadn't "always been a part of the empire"; it existed independently (whole and in pieces) for hundreds of years before it- and before its predecessor, too; remember that this is the third Tamrielic empire. The Nords were flat-out slaves under Ayleid rule; they did better under the Remans and Septims, but it's not exactly surprising they want their independence back- and likely not just for themselves; weakening the empire is the whole point. The Cyrodiilic people (you see how stupid it sounds?) really have no reason to claim dominion over these people save that "we have for a very long time" and their own pride; the centralization required to defeat the looming threat of the Altmer is easily enough acquired with a simple "stand with us now and when the war is won, you'll have your independence" (possibly leading into a Tamrielic Vietnam-type scenario later on), but no, they have to be Roman; heaven forbid we actually get an interesting background.MarsAtlas said:
I think we all owe Julian LeFay an apology.
If I had to choose, I would begrudgingly pick the Empire if only for the fact that the stormcloak rebellion was being used by the dominion to weaken the empire.
To be honest, I never bothered with the civil war quests (read up on it, though). I think it was probably the weakest part of the story when it could have been the strongest. There was so much potential for intrigue, battles, and backstabbing. Also, I was playing as the damn dragonborn: I should have been crowned emperor and lead a newly united empire against the dominion.
To be honest, I never bothered with the civil war quests (read up on it, though). I think it was probably the weakest part of the story when it could have been the strongest. There was so much potential for intrigue, battles, and backstabbing. Also, I was playing as the damn dragonborn: I should have been crowned emperor and lead a newly united empire against the dominion.
They don't have to, but they feel they must cause nothing else is being done about it. Under the current ruler and treaty, the empire can get nothing done.Grouchy Imp said:
Its mostly cause the war is meant as a distraction. If one side wins, thats one side that will be a formidable opponent. A independent Skyrim allied with other provinces is just as much of a threat as a healing empireZetatrain said:
Arkliem said:
Stormcloaks all the way, they are not as racist as people make out, yes there are some racists but it isn't the standard, and before someone tries to point out the segregation of the Dunmer and the Argonions remember who was enslaving whom before red mountain blew and who invaded whom afterwards (or was it before? matters little either way, Dunmer kicked off Morrowind), yeah I can see bad things happening if those 2 races had to be in an enclosed area for a long period of time. There's also the fact you have an Altmer shopkeep (the grocer or the alchemist) in Windhelm who outright states the Dunmer are quick to complain but do nothing to show their worth too busy saying it's not our fight but happy to live off Nord handouts, reminds me too much of those A-Holes who live on benefits and do their best to not get a job.
Trying to get off soapbox...Won't join the empire since they have sold out too many of their own citizens which is too much like handing over Jews to a Nazi concentration camp and lets not forget the Thalmor WANT everyone else dead there can be no co-existence it IS kill or be killed. <Looks at feet...still on soapbox>.
Finally as Dragonborn I'm pretty sure I would be able to forge a new empire, keep Ulfric as Provincial leader of Skyrim, open negotiations with Hammerfel and point out the the true empire died with Martin Septim during the oblivion crises the current empire is more of a game of thrones ensemble rather than an empire forged and maintained by those with dragonsblood/divine right.
TL
R - The empire died with Martin Septim so I would join the Stormcloaks and forge a new empire from there.
Trying to get off soapbox...Won't join the empire since they have sold out too many of their own citizens which is too much like handing over Jews to a Nazi concentration camp and lets not forget the Thalmor WANT everyone else dead there can be no co-existence it IS kill or be killed. <Looks at feet...still on soapbox>.
Finally as Dragonborn I'm pretty sure I would be able to forge a new empire, keep Ulfric as Provincial leader of Skyrim, open negotiations with Hammerfel and point out the the true empire died with Martin Septim during the oblivion crises the current empire is more of a game of thrones ensemble rather than an empire forged and maintained by those with dragonsblood/divine right.
TL
R - The empire died with Martin Septim so I would join the Stormcloaks and forge a new empire from there.
I was going to say that I worked for Belethor at the general good store...but he died the first time I turned into a werewolf.
I chose the empire, not because of any deep or meaningful reason or delving deeply into the history of the Empire and the Stormcloaks or anything like that. I...followed the wrong guy during the escape from Helgan, I meant to follow the Stormcloak guy because he wasn't intent on chopping off my head and thought I was until he turned around and said "Sorry about the whole execution thing, you should join the empire."
I know you have the choice to join anyone you like, but I went to check out Solitude. Liked the area and decided to muck in with the empire. That folks is how you make a decision.
They don't seem a bad lot, they don't seem to be too extreme in enforcing the banning of Talos worship. In fact the only people I've met were who were upset the I was a Talos worshipper were a bunch of Thalmor. And I only told them that because I didn't like their attitude and was hoping that that answer would get them to attack me. Skyrim is a better place without those folk.
I chose the empire, not because of any deep or meaningful reason or delving deeply into the history of the Empire and the Stormcloaks or anything like that. I...followed the wrong guy during the escape from Helgan, I meant to follow the Stormcloak guy because he wasn't intent on chopping off my head and thought I was until he turned around and said "Sorry about the whole execution thing, you should join the empire."
I know you have the choice to join anyone you like, but I went to check out Solitude. Liked the area and decided to muck in with the empire. That folks is how you make a decision.
They don't seem a bad lot, they don't seem to be too extreme in enforcing the banning of Talos worship. In fact the only people I've met were who were upset the I was a Talos worshipper were a bunch of Thalmor. And I only told them that because I didn't like their attitude and was hoping that that answer would get them to attack me. Skyrim is a better place without those folk.
I hear that last option being suggested a lot but I never quite got it. I'm not the biggest lore nut when it comes to the Elder scrolls but I don't think its ever said that every Dragonborn is related which would be something that would have made the Skyrim Dragon born a Septim capable of being crowned emperor. I also don't recall hearing how the Septims got emperor because of being a Dragonborn. They got to be emperor thanks to a huge gollum and plenty of armies.flying_whimsy said:
If you are Nord Stormcloaks.
If you are anything else Empire.
Stormcloaks are fighting for what was their land before the Empire took it true, but they a super racist and don't want non-Nord's to live their, it's like the native-Americans taking back North America and kicking everyone else out.
On the other hand if you are Nord the Empire is crushing Nord religion to cover their own asses.
If you are anything else Empire.
Stormcloaks are fighting for what was their land before the Empire took it true, but they a super racist and don't want non-Nord's to live their, it's like the native-Americans taking back North America and kicking everyone else out.
On the other hand if you are Nord the Empire is crushing Nord religion to cover their own asses.
Stormcloaks. Now I DO hate their racist attitudes (I pretty much exclusively play Dunmer in Elder Scrolls games). BUT, I read the Nu Mantia Intercepts and the Altmeri Commentary On Talos. Both amazing pieces of deep lore regarding the metaphysical nature of Nirn and it's existence.
For those not in the know, the elves or "Mer" believe they are descendants of the "Aedra" or "Ancestors", their name for the Eight Divines. Men on the other hand are usually referred to as The Sons Of Lorkhan.
I won't go too deeply into the creation of Nirn, but each race of Mer attempted to raise themselves back up to godhood by creating or controlling Towers. giant structures connected to "Stones". There are also some Towers which are not raised by mortal hands like Red Mountain, Adamantine and Snow Throat but the others such as Orihalc, Crystal-Like-Law, Walk Brass and White Gold are mortal made and act as manipulators of Majika, or, due to the Wheel Within A Wheel nature of White Gold, Creatia itself.
Now, these towers also have another, possibly unanticipated effect, they stabilize Nirn's space and time as a bubble within Oblivion and Atherius. It is because of these towers that the world exists at all.
For example, Adamantine's stone is called the Zero Stone or Convention. It is where the remaining god's met after creating Nirn to punish Lorkhan's treachery and in doing so, Akatosh created a point of reference that began linear time in Nirn, Lorkhan's heart landed in the sea and became Red Mountain but this tower's effect gave Nirn it's own, special kind of divinity which let the Divines leave it without it or they becoming unraveled. So, Adamantine stabilizes Time in Nirn, and Red Mountain prevents it from unraveling.
But what does Michael Kirkbride's rambling lore have to do with the Stormcloak, Empire conflict you ask? patience, I'm getting to that.
The Thalmor wish to return to being the gods that they believe they are descended from, but nowadays nobody knows how to raise themselves up through use of the Towers, and in fact, the Thalmor have found another solution.
They wish to unmake Nirn.
Over several games, towers have been falling. Numidium, Walk Brass, was deactivated in Daggerfall, Red Mountain in Morrowind, we saw what happened when the stabilizing effect of White Gold was temporarily deactivated during Oblivion and Snow Throat in Skyrim may have been deactivated depending on what it's Stone was. Crystal Like Law was destroyed by Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis and Orihalc was destroyed when a Redguard sank the island by performing Prankatrosword. The great, walking tree city of the Bosmer has stopped moving after the Thalmor took over their woods which may indicate deactivation as well.
The bars that hold the world together are coming apart, and the Thalmor are getting closer and closer to their goal. They wish to remove Talos, a mortal made god, from the Mythic and thus weaken Nirn further, hence their banning of his worship, they also wish to not only kill humans, but remove the very idea of them from the weave of possibility so that the Sons of Lorkhan cannot act to stabilize the world's divinity with their presence.
Thus, I side with the Stormcloaks. If Talos is removed from the Mythic then all of Nirn is in terrible danger. and may be dissolved back into Atherius.
Nu Mantia Intercepts: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept
Easier info on the towers: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Towers
Altmeri Commentary on Talos: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride
More info on the towers: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers
For those not in the know, the elves or "Mer" believe they are descendants of the "Aedra" or "Ancestors", their name for the Eight Divines. Men on the other hand are usually referred to as The Sons Of Lorkhan.
I won't go too deeply into the creation of Nirn, but each race of Mer attempted to raise themselves back up to godhood by creating or controlling Towers. giant structures connected to "Stones". There are also some Towers which are not raised by mortal hands like Red Mountain, Adamantine and Snow Throat but the others such as Orihalc, Crystal-Like-Law, Walk Brass and White Gold are mortal made and act as manipulators of Majika, or, due to the Wheel Within A Wheel nature of White Gold, Creatia itself.
Now, these towers also have another, possibly unanticipated effect, they stabilize Nirn's space and time as a bubble within Oblivion and Atherius. It is because of these towers that the world exists at all.
For example, Adamantine's stone is called the Zero Stone or Convention. It is where the remaining god's met after creating Nirn to punish Lorkhan's treachery and in doing so, Akatosh created a point of reference that began linear time in Nirn, Lorkhan's heart landed in the sea and became Red Mountain but this tower's effect gave Nirn it's own, special kind of divinity which let the Divines leave it without it or they becoming unraveled. So, Adamantine stabilizes Time in Nirn, and Red Mountain prevents it from unraveling.
But what does Michael Kirkbride's rambling lore have to do with the Stormcloak, Empire conflict you ask? patience, I'm getting to that.
The Thalmor wish to return to being the gods that they believe they are descended from, but nowadays nobody knows how to raise themselves up through use of the Towers, and in fact, the Thalmor have found another solution.
They wish to unmake Nirn.
Over several games, towers have been falling. Numidium, Walk Brass, was deactivated in Daggerfall, Red Mountain in Morrowind, we saw what happened when the stabilizing effect of White Gold was temporarily deactivated during Oblivion and Snow Throat in Skyrim may have been deactivated depending on what it's Stone was. Crystal Like Law was destroyed by Daedra during the Oblivion Crisis and Orihalc was destroyed when a Redguard sank the island by performing Prankatrosword. The great, walking tree city of the Bosmer has stopped moving after the Thalmor took over their woods which may indicate deactivation as well.
The bars that hold the world together are coming apart, and the Thalmor are getting closer and closer to their goal. They wish to remove Talos, a mortal made god, from the Mythic and thus weaken Nirn further, hence their banning of his worship, they also wish to not only kill humans, but remove the very idea of them from the weave of possibility so that the Sons of Lorkhan cannot act to stabilize the world's divinity with their presence.
Thus, I side with the Stormcloaks. If Talos is removed from the Mythic then all of Nirn is in terrible danger. and may be dissolved back into Atherius.
Nu Mantia Intercepts: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/nu-mantia-intercept
Easier info on the towers: http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Towers
Altmeri Commentary on Talos: http://www.imperial-library.info/content/forum-archives-michael-kirkbride
More info on the towers: http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Towers
Gotta go Stormcloaks. Giving your enemy free reign to muck about in your country, detain and torture your citizens, and generally play by their own rules is akin to relinquishing your sovereignty. Skyrim was sold out. Sure, maybe the Empire didn't have a choice. Maybe they were doing so poorly in the war that this was their only out. Maybe the needs of the many outweighed the needs of the few, but tell that to the people in shackles being tortured by Thalmor Justiciars. The Empire may not have lost the war, but Skyrim certainly did. Why take the hit for a nation that is either unable or unwilling to protect you?
Denying you aid is one thing; Actively repressing your military efforts against the Thalmor is another. Hammerfell didn't play that shit, and they turned out all right. Ulfric may be racist a douche, but the Aldmeri Dominion has him beaten on those two fronts.
Denying you aid is one thing; Actively repressing your military efforts against the Thalmor is another. Hammerfell didn't play that shit, and they turned out all right. Ulfric may be racist a douche, but the Aldmeri Dominion has him beaten on those two fronts.
Beth is really toying with people in Skyrim. The last man to forge an empire, Talos/Tiber Septim, is a sort of amalgamation of Hjalti Early-Beard, Zurin Arctus, and Wulfharth. Each of them performed actions while pretending to be Talos Stormcrown the general. Hjalti being the prophesized dragonborn leading the charge, Zurin being the imperial loyal to his lord, and Wulfharth being the representation of the early Nordic traditions. All three of them became part of Talos the god. How funny now that we have a Tullius, Stormcloak and a dragonborn between the both of them and enough uncertainty to mimic the beginning of Talos rise to ascension. Talos also started through unifying skyrim.Hades said:
Tiber Septim, Talos, was a Dragonborn Nord. He lost his Voice early on in his military campaigns when someone cut him across the throat but he certainly did have the same gift that we see in the player character ingame. After that, his Empire concurred much of Tamriel and parlayed with the living gods of the Tribunal in Morrowind who gave him Numidium, the Dwemer Tower of Walk Brass, as a gift. He then used this to complete his conquests of the world.Hades said:
Well, I was thinking it wasn't really a birthright by just being dragonborn, rather that being able to control dragons and having saved the world from oblivion you could just take the throne. Would have made for a much more engaging story and a longer game: something I honestly think the game would have had were it not for the limits of the last console generation (I was also expecting more from the dwemer stuff, probably as a big dlc). Also, the nords had a major reverence for dragonborn and would have been far more likely to follow the player character as opposed to that jackass they had in charge.Hades said:
So basically, if the player can kill what was essentially the lord of death they could easily have just taken the crown: the nords would have been more inclined to follow from their history and the empire would have probably welcomed a dragonborn to help deal with the threat of the dominion. Like I said, way more interesting.
Let's be fair to the stormcloaks here, when you suddenly ban both a god and one of the most revered Nords of any history there is going to be a lot of anger about it.LifeCharacter said:
The Justicars and Dominion were given full writ to stamp it out as soon as the concordat was signed, the Empire didn't have to do anything because they were forced to stand back and let the Thalmor perform the tortures and hunts of Talos worshipers that we see in Skyrim. This ban and the enforcing of it by Thalmor Justicars in Skyrim, the province most heavily affected by the ban, is what produced the Stormcloak Rebellion, not the other way around.
As well as this, the Imperials have no teeth left, their leaders assassinate one another even without the Stormcloaks in the north and other provinces have flat out left to fight the Thalmor on their own like Hammerfel. The Empire doesn't seem healthy enough to stand up to the Thalmor anymore, especially after the drubbing that they got in the last war and the loss of provinces due to it.
Where is it pointed out the the Empire was cool with Talos worship as long as Skyrim kept it on the downlow?LifeCharacter said:
Empire tried to kill me, Stormcloaks I could give a rats ass about their cause. Whoever pays the most gets my loyalty, for the war at least. I'll fulfill a contract, then when said contract is up, my services are open to any with the coin.
Stormcloaks for 2 reasons:
1) The Empire tried to cut off my head. If it wasn't for an ancient dragon swooping by and destroying the town my PC would've forever lost his chance to get ahead in life.
2) All of the Empire's talk of needing to unify the Empire and THEN they would fight the Thalmor was hollow as fuck. For all intents and purposes the Empire is already occupied by the Domain. Thalmor agents were openly kidnapping and murdering innocent people with zero reprecussions. The Stormcloaks are far from the ideal alternative, but at least they are actively fighting the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Nazi Germany as opposed to passively sitting back but assuring everyone that no really, we're totally gonna fight them.
I have another question for this thread: how do you think Bethseda is going to treat the events of Skyrim when they make the next Elder Scrolls? My bet is that instead of declaring one side or the other canon they're going to go for a "both sides win" approach: after defeating Alduin, the Dragonborn gets the two factions to compromise and focus all their attention towards the Thalmor. Skyrim remains an Imperial province and dedicates a considerable amount of its people to the Imperial army, but Ulfric Stormcloak becomes High King and Skyrim enjoys considerably more autonomy than other provinces.
By the next Elder Scrolls, Skyrim has not only recovered from the civil war but is also experiencing a reinaissance. The emergence of the Dragonborn and the legalization of Talos worship has lead to a surge of pilgrims coming to the province. However, in keeping with the politics of the Stormcloaks, elves are an extremely oppressed second class citizenry. They have been forced to live in ghettos stricken with poverty, sickness, and heavy crimes. "Disappearances" have become and all-too common occurance as well.
1) The Empire tried to cut off my head. If it wasn't for an ancient dragon swooping by and destroying the town my PC would've forever lost his chance to get ahead in life.
2) All of the Empire's talk of needing to unify the Empire and THEN they would fight the Thalmor was hollow as fuck. For all intents and purposes the Empire is already occupied by the Domain. Thalmor agents were openly kidnapping and murdering innocent people with zero reprecussions. The Stormcloaks are far from the ideal alternative, but at least they are actively fighting the Elder Scrolls equivalent of Nazi Germany as opposed to passively sitting back but assuring everyone that no really, we're totally gonna fight them.
I have another question for this thread: how do you think Bethseda is going to treat the events of Skyrim when they make the next Elder Scrolls? My bet is that instead of declaring one side or the other canon they're going to go for a "both sides win" approach: after defeating Alduin, the Dragonborn gets the two factions to compromise and focus all their attention towards the Thalmor. Skyrim remains an Imperial province and dedicates a considerable amount of its people to the Imperial army, but Ulfric Stormcloak becomes High King and Skyrim enjoys considerably more autonomy than other provinces.
By the next Elder Scrolls, Skyrim has not only recovered from the civil war but is also experiencing a reinaissance. The emergence of the Dragonborn and the legalization of Talos worship has lead to a surge of pilgrims coming to the province. However, in keeping with the politics of the Stormcloaks, elves are an extremely oppressed second class citizenry. They have been forced to live in ghettos stricken with poverty, sickness, and heavy crimes. "Disappearances" have become and all-too common occurance as well.
They have pulled the all endings approach before. Official canon from ES2 is that all the endings happened simultaneously.Jaegerbombastic said: