Poll: Sympathy or Pandering? Moral Dilemma.

[Simon Hadow]

Ok, here's the story. I attend a high school, and at this high school, there was a talent show several months ago. It wasn't a big affair, just a chance for some kids to show a skill that they have pride in. There was an improv acting group, and several dance acts, but mostly it was musical talent being shown. There were a limited number of spots, and a friend of mine, who has been studying music for years, and who is incredibly talented at it, auditioned a vocal solo act and did not get in. This in of itself is not a bad thing. Plenty of just as good acts were shown, and my friend didn't take it personally, or have any hard feelings. However, I have been rather outraged on her behalf, because there was another act, also a vocal solo performed by a student, that was terrible. Under normal circumstances, almost no judge would have let the act into the show except for one thing; the boy in question attends special needs classes, because he has Autism. I've talked to my friends about it, including the friend who did not get into the show, and most of them either avoid the topic, as they see it as a kind of social taboo to even discuss it, or just don't care. So, I've turned my opinion search to the internet, to find out what the world at large thinks. What are your thoughts Escapist? Should the Autistic boy have received special treatment, when there were other people, vying for the same opportunity with much more training and skill? And please clarify in a post. Thanks ahead of time for your weighing in on the subject, and bringing in some interesting new perspectives.

Side Not: I am well aware that this is silly to be worrying over a high school talent show, but I'm interested in people's general opinions on what crosses the line from sympathy to unjustified pandering.

Edits: In the short time this thread has been up, some interesting opinions and questions have been raised, that I now realize I have forgotten to address. I'll fix this as they happen, starting now
Prize: There was a first, second and third place prize awarded. they were Walmart gift cards of ascending price value. The boy in question got second.
The degree of Autism: While I can't say for certain what severity of autism he has, as I don't know him personally, or know much about autism, I can say that the boy, from the few encounters I've had with him because of the small size of our high school, is rather anti-social, and sometimes short-tempered. Wether this is part of his condition, or just his personality is also unknown to me, be I hope it helps you make a decision.
My personal opinion: Several people seem to think I have some sort of minor vendetta against the boy with autism. I assure you, this is not the case. I understand the merit of the boys confidence boost, and the lack of importance of a high school talent show. However, my own opinion on the nature of the Talent Show as a showcase of legitimate talent outweighs those in my mind. Do I hold a grudge against the boy? No. The Judges? No. I only feel slightly curious about the moral nature of the whole thing, and wanted to take the opinions of more than just my (Admittedly small) circle of friends. Hope this clarifies some things. Thanks for the interesting ( and in some case heated) opinions.

I won't be able to weigh in again for a while, as I have to be away from the computer, so I'll be radio silent for a bit. I'll check again in the morning (In Canada that is) and try to address any further issues or questions that have been raised to my absent eyed Avatar. Thanks for all the input, and for keeping this at least a low key Flame war guys. Here's to genuine, civil conversation and debate.

 

[BanicRhys]

It depends whether this talent show is for the performers or the audience.

If it's just a chance for parents to "ooh aah" over how special their children are, then it isn't that bad that the judges decided to give the boy a chance to do something he probably won't get to do a lot.

But if this is a big production where admission is being charged, then no, it isn't fair on the audience to make them watch someone who sucks just because he's special.

 

[Craorach]

I believe in Equal rights for all, regardless of ability, gender, race, sexuality, etc..

That means no, he should not have gotten in if he was not as technically talented as others.

A talent contest is not "aww, look how hard he's trying, isn't that sweet". It is a contest where the best talent wins, regardless of how hard they try.

 

[Macgyvercas]

Oh boy, I can't see this ending well.

That said, I'm operating under the assuption that under normal circumstances, talent shows are supposed to have the most talented in them (after all, it's in the name).

As I don't know the full situation, I can't make a decisive call, but from what I can discern, it seems to me that the school was using the educational equivalent of affirmative action (which I personally have never been to fond of. I mean what happened to just taking the best instead of mandating a certain race quota?).

Out of curiosity, what type of Autism are we talking about here? High or low functioning? (I only ask because I have seen people, friends of mine in fact, who have HFA and have been in special classes).

 

[Simon Hadow]

It depends whether this talent show is for the performers or the audience.

If the former then it isn't that bad that the judges decided to give the boy a chance to do something he probably won't get to do much because he sucks.

But if this is a big production where admission is being charged, then no it isn't fair on the audience to make them watch someone who sucks just because he's special.

Hmmm. Interesting. Thank you, I hadn't thought of it that way in particular before. As for if it was for performer or audience, there was a first, second, and third place prize (He got second... a much more talented young lady got third), but they were your basic gift cards to Walmart of scaling prices sort of prizes, if that matters at all.

 

[Mallefunction]

A talent contest is not "aww, look how hard he's trying, isn't that sweet". It is a contest where the best talent wins, regardless of how hard they try.

This.

I get that they want to give this kid a chance, but it's really not fair to put him up in front of people like this JUST because he is special needs. In fact, it draws attention to the fact that they are only doing this to try to include the poor kid and make him feel like just another one of the class. It makes him stand out, not fit in with the 'normal' students.

 

[Jake0fTrades]

If this were a big time money-making production, then no, the boy should not be given special treatment. But being that this is nothing more than a high-school talent show, I'd say it would be preferable to move on with life and forget it happened.

But it wouldn't have killed them to extend the show by 5 minutes to include one more person.

 

[Simon Hadow]

Oh boy, I can't see this ending well.

That said, I'm operating under the assuption that under normal circumstances, talent shows are supposed to have the most talented in them (after all, it's in the name).

As I don't know the full situation, I can't make a decisive call, but from what I can discern, it seems to me that the school was using the educational equivalent of affirmative action (which I personally have never been to fond of. I mean what happened to just taking the best instead of mandating a certain race quota?).

Out of curiosity, what type of Autism are we talking about here? High or low functioning? (I only ask because I have seen people, friends of mine in fact, who have HFA and have been in special classes).

I honestly cant say, as I've never looked into it myself, but the boy in question is, in the sparse encounters I've had with him living in a small town high school, rather anti social, and short tempered. I don't know if this is at all helpful in deducing his condition, or even if it has anything to do with the autism, or if he's just anti-social and angry.

 

[BanicRhys]

It depends whether this talent show is for the performers or the audience.

If the former then it isn't that bad that the judges decided to give the boy a chance to do something he probably won't get to do much because he sucks.

But if this is a big production where admission is being charged, then no it isn't fair on the audience to make them watch someone who sucks just because he's special.

Hmmm. Interesting. Thank you, I hadn't thought of it that way in particular before. As for if it was for performer or audience, there was a first, second, and third place prize (He got second... a much more talented young lady got third), but they were your basic gift cards to Walmart of scaling prices sort of prizes, if that matters at all.

If he really does suck as much as you say then it was wrong to give him a prize, regardless of the nature of the talent show.

Unless they were judging the amount of effort the performers put in or something stupid like that...

 

[TiefBlau]

It's a fucking high school talent show. Not exactly the big leagues here.

Let the retard have his fun. He's fucking retarded. Do you want to feel like you've won over an autistic child? Read facial expressions. That's something they can't do, and you didn't need to join a talent show to do it.

I swear, all this "anti-political correctness" bullshit is getting ridiculous.

 

[ChaosDragon]

The thing is, regardless of a prize involved in a talent show, it is exactly that.

A talent SHOW.

I think it was a great opportunity for this autistic person to feel involved within this specific community. I'm sure it was only because of time constraints that your talented friend didn't get a slot.

That being said, this SpEd kid probably won't have many chances to do something like this, and your much more talented associate, if sufficiently talented and driven, will have multiple chances to display her gift.

Regardless, I don't think it was PANDERING. Defined as "Gratify or indulge (an immoral or distasteful desire, need, or habit or a person with such a desire, etc.) (via Google)". I don't even think sympathy plays a role. Just an equal opportunity for everyone in the school (regardless of intellect) to display what they are proud of.

 

[Craorach]

It's a fucking high school talent show. Not exactly the big leagues here.

Let the retard have his fun. He's fucking retarded.

I swear, all this "anti-political correctness" bullshit is getting ridiculous.

It being a high school is precisely the reason things like this should not happen. School is a setting in which we learn social norms and actions we expect to encounter in the rest of our lives.

Contests of skill are not, ever, about "who puts in the most effort" in the real world. They are about who is the best in their given field.

Behaviour like this instils a simple idea in the minds of everyone involved, including the Autistic kid. That message is that, if someone is disabled, they should be given a free pass into situations where their disability is directly in conflict with their ability to perform.

It also instils in the parents and students at the school the expectation that future contests at the school will not be based upon merit but upon effort.

 

[Simon Hadow]

It's a fucking high school talent show. Not exactly the big leagues here.

Let the retard have his fun. He's fucking retarded. Do you want to feel like you've won over an autistic child? Read facial expressions. That's something they can't do, and you didn't need to join a talent show to do it.

I swear, all this "anti-political correctness" bullshit is getting ridiculous.

I'm not trying to be part of any "Anti-Political Correctness Bullshit", I'm just interested in peoples opinions, and also in some good old fashioned debate and conversation. including this one. Thanks for weighing in on this, I appreciate all sides of this topic.

 

[TiefBlau]

It being a high school is precisely the reason things like this should not happen. School is a setting in which we learn social norms and actions we expect to encounter in the rest of our lives.

School is as much a valid sampling of reality as irritable bowel syndrome is a valid sampling of Indian food.

Contests of skill are not, ever, about "who puts in the most effort" in the real world. They are about who is the best in their given field.

That's fine. If you want to audition for your city's symphony orchestra, the judges owe you this kind of mentality.

This is a high school talent show. You could cure cancer before their very eyes and no one would take you seriously. Not nearly as seriously as the guy that juggled while sitting on a unicycle, anyways.

Behaviour like this instils a simple idea in the minds of everyone involved, including the Autistic kid. That message is that, if someone is disabled, they should be given a free pass into situations where their disability is directly in conflict with their ability to perform.

Completely agree. Look at all those record deals that autistic boy earned.

Opportunity completely wasted on a glorified fundraising activity.

It also instils in the parents and students at the school the expectation that future contests at the school will not be based upon merit but upon effort.

Protip: Neither school, nor the world has a fuck to give about either one. No one cares about how much self-perceived "merit" you have or how talented you are or how much you think you deserve anything.

They care about what makes them the happy. It's part of the whole "supply and demand" deal. There are many people who would rather know they're aiding the self-esteem of a boy with severe mental disabilities than sit through yet another technically competent singing performance.

You may call those people naive. I call them "high schoolers and their doting parents".

 

[Erana]

Out of curiosity, what type of Autism are we talking about here? High or low functioning? (I only ask because I have seen people, friends of mine in fact, who have HFA and have been in special classes).

This. Totally this.
I've known some people with Asperger's, and while I'd expect people to cut them a little slack if they were to be especially awkward, they wouldn't need to be given a free slot in a talent show.

In elementary school, an autistic boy participated in class for half of the day to get some socializing. He was incredibly brilliant, (this was the accelerated class they were putting him in) but had full-blown autism. I wouldn't be surprised if he never is able to hold a normal conversation.
One year, we put on a dance thing to songs from the musical Oklahoma, and with his family, the class teacher, and the special education teacher all helping him practice for months he was able to be the narrator for this presentation.
Sure, the other kids could have done better, especially with the narrator having been the backbone of the whole thing, but fuck that. It made him so happy and proud, and he surprised everyone in the audience by doing better than they thought him capable of.

Sure, for the average person, getting a slot in the talent show would be some kinda gold star for being proficient in something. This sort of ego thing, where if they didn't get in, their pride has been somehow offended. I'm gifted, so I have a bit of a big ego when it comes to academics. I can understand.
I had teachers come up to me after competitions telling me that they gave the other person the win because the other person needed a confidence boost, and they felt I was mature enough to handle losing.
Part of me would be terribly annoyed, yes, but they didn't do this with people who would hold themselves as my superior over me for their victory. They did it because for the other person, I was a benchmark, and winning for them was, "Hey, I actually get a chance feel proud of myself!"

And for someone with a mental disability? I don't know how severe the person in question's autism is, but chances are, they very rarely get a chance to shine, and not for a lack of applying themselves.
Just step back, take a breather, and let him have it. At the talent show, just look at his smile.

 

[Simon Hadow]

It being a high school is precisely the reason things like this should not happen. School is a setting in which we learn social norms and actions we expect to encounter in the rest of our lives.

School is as much a valid sampling of reality as irritable bowel syndrome is a valid sampling of Indian food.

Contests of skill are not, ever, about "who puts in the most effort" in the real world. They are about who is the best in their given field.

That's fine. If you want to audition for your city's symphony orchestra, the judges owe you this kind of mentality.

This is a high school talent show. You could cure cancer before their very eyes and no one would take you seriously. Not nearly as seriously as the guy that juggled while sitting on a unicycle, anyways.

Behaviour like this instils a simple idea in the minds of everyone involved, including the Autistic kid. That message is that, if someone is disabled, they should be given a free pass into situations where their disability is directly in conflict with their ability to perform.

Completely agree. Look at all those record deals that autistic boy earned.

Opportunity completely wasted on a glorified fundraising activity.

It also instils in the parents and students at the school the expectation that future contests at the school will not be based upon merit but upon effort.

Protip: Neither school, nor the world has a fuck to give about either one. No one cares about how much self-perceived "merit" you have or how talented you are or how much you think you deserve anything.

They care about what makes them the happy. It's part of the whole "supply and demand" deal. There are many people who would rather know they're aiding the self-esteem of a boy with severe mental disabilities than sit through yet another technically competent singing performance.

You may call those people naive. I call them "high schoolers and their doting parents".

I'll address this point by point:

1: I'm not even sure what you're saying here. Maybe I have to know more about Indian food, I don't know, but you really didn't get your point across, at least to me.
2: The Example about the curing of cancer vs. the juggler. You seem to say that people care more about being entertained than a genuine world changing revolution in medicine (At least in your metaphor). While your point rings true on the value of high school talent shows, and that I'm caring too much, it avoids the fact that the topic isn't about wether it changes anybodies lives or not, it's about wether it was, in the context of the situation, fair.
3: I saw this in the news. Agree with you completely on this one.
4: You're point about people caring more about what makes them happy then about talent and personal merits. True; people are selfish. They'll kill friends, and say someone else did it for a handful of hundred dollar bills. But that wasn't what Craorach was talking about (Feel free to correct me on this if I'm misinterpreting this, Craorach) he was talking about real world, non-hypothetical situations like job interviews. Nobody is going to be more or less happy if they hire my friend over the autistic boy. Nobody will hire him to be anything more than a janitor out of sympathy to make themselves feel like a good person unless he can do something that another applicant can't that makes him better at the job.

 

[Craorach]

Thankyou, Simon, I was on my way back to this thread to respond but for the most part we see eye to eye.

On the "Indian Food" comment I think Tief was trying to suggest that school and the real world are completely unrelated despite having something in common (Indian food goes in, gets digested.. becomes what he mentioned?)

To that I say simply this... correct, school is increasingly irrelevant in teaching young people about the real world and how the real world should be.

This is a terrible situation. School is becoming a place where they learn that "trying hard" is enough for everyone. That "Positive Behaviour" will get them everywhere.. "Negative Behaviour" will get them virtually no punishment. Where everyone will be forced to accept them for who they are and lower every task to their level despite their not being suited to perform it at all.

I suppose if you're happy with schools dumbing the next generation down and giving them unrealistic views of the world then that's a good thing.

High School especially should be preparing children for the real world. Schools are not there to make everyone feel wonderful about themselves, they are there to educate and prepare the next generation for the world of adulthood, work and responsibility. To give them the tools to deal with both good situations and bad.

What this sort of thing teaches the students at the school can be spun two ways..

1. Give everyone a chance regardless of their (Dis)abilities!
2. Allow someone physically/mentally/talently(not a word but still) to do something because they deserve to get a leg up because of their disability.

I view it the second way. I believe in Equality, but it must be Equal. If you can't lift a box, you don't get a job that requires lifting. If you can't see, you don't get a job that requires seeing. If you can't sing, you don't get put in a talent contest as a singer.

 

[pascalCase]

This sounds quite a bit like a situation I was in as a kid. Only replace autism with downs and "participate in talent show" with "having a place of honor in some ceremony alongside the most genuinely hard-working students in the school".

I, experiencing a bout of foot-in-mouth syndrome, blurted out what b/s this was upon the teacher announcing it. And so, promptly earning my school career's one and only suspension.

Point is, I felt ever so slightly bad about actually saying it. But, I never once felt that the sentiment was wrong or that being punished for accidentally speaking my mind was fair.

I've got no problem with the boy's family or friends or some random people wanting to coddle him. My issue is when this is shoved down everyone else's throats in an example of the exact opposite of the meritocracy that the U.S. prides itself upon.

 

[Simon Hadow]

This sounds quite a bit like a situation I was in as a kid. Only replace autism with downs and "participate in talent show" with "having a place of honor in some ceremony alongside the most genuinely hard-working students in the school".

I, experiencing a bout of foot-in-mouth syndrome, blurted out what b/s this was upon the teacher announcing it. And so, promptly earning my school career's one and only suspension.

Point is, I felt ever so slightly bad about actually saying it. But, I never once felt that the sentiment was wrong or that being punished for accidentally speaking my mind was fair.

I've got no problem with the boy's family or friends or some random people wanting to coddle him. My issue is when this is shoved down everyone else's throats in an example of the exact opposite of the meritocracy that the U.S. prides itself upon.

Thanks for your input PascalCase. However, there's one point I have to correct you on: I'M Canadian. The high school is in Canada. I don't know if this changes anything for you, but just thought I should specify.