Poll: Sympathy or Pandering? Moral Dilemma.

dyre

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Simon Hadow said:
TiefBlau said:
Craorach said:
It being a high school is precisely the reason things like this should not happen. School is a setting in which we learn social norms and actions we expect to encounter in the rest of our lives.
School is as much a valid sampling of reality as irritable bowel syndrome is a valid sampling of Indian food.
Craorach said:
Contests of skill are not, ever, about "who puts in the most effort" in the real world. They are about who is the best in their given field.
That's fine. If you want to audition for your city's symphony orchestra, the judges owe you this kind of mentality.

This is a high school talent show. You could cure cancer before their very eyes and no one would take you seriously. Not nearly as seriously as the guy that juggled while sitting on a unicycle, anyways.

Craorach said:
Behaviour like this instils a simple idea in the minds of everyone involved, including the Autistic kid. That message is that, if someone is disabled, they should be given a free pass into situations where their disability is directly in conflict with their ability to perform.
Completely agree. Look at all those record deals that autistic boy earned.

Opportunity completely wasted on a glorified fundraising activity.

Craorach said:
It also instils in the parents and students at the school the expectation that future contests at the school will not be based upon merit but upon effort.
Protip: Neither school, nor the world has a fuck to give about either one. No one cares about how much self-perceived "merit" you have or how talented you are or how much you think you deserve anything.

They care about what makes them the happy. It's part of the whole "supply and demand" deal. There are many people who would rather know they're aiding the self-esteem of a boy with severe mental disabilities than sit through yet another technically competent singing performance.

You may call those people naive. I call them "high schoolers and their doting parents".
I'll address this point by point:

1: I'm not even sure what you're saying here. Maybe I have to know more about Indian food, I don't know, but you really didn't get your point across, at least to me.
2: The Example about the curing of cancer vs. the juggler. You seem to say that people care more about being entertained than a genuine world changing revolution in medicine (At least in your metaphor). While your point rings true on the value of high school talent shows, and that I'm caring too much, it avoids the fact that the topic isn't about wether it changes anybodies lives or not, it's about wether it was, in the context of the situation, fair.
3: I saw this in the news. Agree with you completely on this one.
4: You're point about people caring more about what makes them happy then about talent and personal merits. True; people are selfish. They'll kill friends, and say someone else did it for a handful of hundred dollar bills. But that wasn't what Craorach was talking about (Feel free to correct me on this if I'm misinterpreting this, Craorach) he was talking about real world, non-hypothetical situations like job interviews. Nobody is going to be more or less happy if they hire my friend over the autistic boy. Nobody will hire him to be anything more than a janitor out of sympathy to make themselves feel like a good person unless he can do something that another applicant can't that makes him better at the job.
Since you seem to have some trouble understanding TiefBlau, I'll summarize:

It's just high school. High school talent shows don't matter. At all. They have NO bearing on reality, and anyone who thinks they do probably ought to be up there with the autistic guy.
High school talent shows are where autistic people can still win. Might as well let the kid have his fun; real life will suck for him.
 

OrokuSaki

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I personally have nothing against autism, but most of society really does pander to the mentally..... I'm just going to use deficient demographic. I understand that he is autistic and him wanting to do something public is to be encouraged, but then couldn't they say, schedule an event specifically for him and not hand him the talent show on a silver platter?

I know that having autism isn't his fault and is an unfortunate circumstance, but does that really mean that we have to cater to them? Seriously, I have few friends, antisocial tendencies, and trouble expressing myself, but I can't sing and I shouldn't be rewarding for my singing just because I tried.

That said, any verdict based on an internet jury won't effect the outcome of your talent show.
 

TiefBlau

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Simon Hadow said:
1: I'm not even sure what you're saying here. Maybe I have to know more about Indian food, I don't know, but you really didn't get your point across, at least to me.
I'm saying it's not in the least bit a valid representation of the real world, and it shouldn't in the least bit be.
Simon Hadow said:
2: The Example about the curing of cancer vs. the juggler. You seem to say that people care more about being entertained than a genuine world changing revolution in medicine (At least in your metaphor). While your point rings true on the value of high school talent shows, and that I'm caring too much, it avoids the fact that the topic isn't about wether it changes anybodies lives or not, it's about wether it was, in the context of the situation, fair.
You are reading way, way, way, way, WAY too far into this. My point is that everyone goes to a talent show not because they want to see an exhibit of genuine human talent, but because their friend is playing in some band that has a song that they like or something.

It's an event purely for fun.
Simon Hadow said:
3: I saw this in the news. Agree with you completely on this one.
What?

Dude, I was being sarcastic. This is not going too well.

I'm saying that the autistic boy isn't earning too many record deals from a stupid high school talent show. This isn't a competition of raw talent and determination, this is an event where you get to see the people you vaguely recognize from class do some tricks with a yo-yo. It shouldn't be taken so seriously.
Simon Hadow said:
4: You're point about people caring more about what makes them happy then about talent and personal merits. True; people are selfish. They'll kill friends, and say someone else did it for a handful of hundred dollar bills.
You seem to be reading the words in my post but not entirely understanding what I'm trying to say. To reiterate my point:

First off, no, people aren't selfish. They just want to be happy.

Secondly, "talent and personal merits" are completely subjective and of no use to society. Once again, no one cares about what you think you deserve. I think I am unparalleled in my ability to take a dump. I don't charge people money for it because no one wants to see it, no matter how much I think I "deserve" that money. No amount of self-entitlement is going to change that. I can say I deserve to win the world cup. It doesn't matter, because words like "deserve" and "merit" are bullshit concocted by the worlds sorer losers.

Finally,
Simon Hadow said:
But that wasn't what Craorach was talking about (Feel free to correct me on this if I'm misinterpreting this, Craorach) he was talking about real world, non-hypothetical situations like job interviews. Nobody is going to be more or less happy if they hire my friend over the autistic boy. Nobody will hire him to be anything more than a janitor out of sympathy to make themselves feel like a good person unless he can do something that another applicant can't that makes him better at the job.
Did you not read the part where I mentioned I was talking about a high school talent show?

I only mentioned it every time I replied. In literally every response.

This is a real, concrete situation in which someone actually got into a real-life high school talent show. We're not talking about job interviews, record deals, or the price of tomatoes.

Of course it's different in the "real world" when people's actual livelihoods are at stake. I was not in the least bit talking about that. The thread was not in the least bit talking about that. Did you read the poll? That wasn't in the least bit talking about that either.
 

Craorach

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TiefBlau.

Would it be accurate to say that you believe school is a society and experience unique to itself, which has no effect on those going through it after they leave its gates?
 

Simon Hadow

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TiefBlau said:
Simon Hadow said:
1: I'm not even sure what you're saying here. Maybe I have to know more about Indian food, I don't know, but you really didn't get your point across, at least to me.
I'm saying it's not in the least bit a valid representation of the real world, and it shouldn't in the least bit be.
Simon Hadow said:
2: The Example about the curing of cancer vs. the juggler. You seem to say that people care more about being entertained than a genuine world changing revolution in medicine (At least in your metaphor). While your point rings true on the value of high school talent shows, and that I'm caring too much, it avoids the fact that the topic isn't about wether it changes anybodies lives or not, it's about wether it was, in the context of the situation, fair.
You are reading way, way, way, way, WAY too far into this. My point is that everyone goes to a talent show not because they want to see an exhibit of genuine human talent, but because their friend is playing in some band that has a song that they like or something.

It's an event purely for fun.
Simon Hadow said:
3: I saw this in the news. Agree with you completely on this one.
What?

Dude, I was being sarcastic. This is not going too well.

I'm saying that the autistic boy isn't earning too many record deals from a stupid high school talent show. This isn't a competition of raw talent and determination, this is an event where you get to see the people you vaguely recognize from class do some tricks with a yo-yo. It shouldn't be taken so seriously.
Simon Hadow said:
4: You're point about people caring more about what makes them happy then about talent and personal merits. True; people are selfish. They'll kill friends, and say someone else did it for a handful of hundred dollar bills.
You seem to be reading the words in my post but not entirely understanding what I'm trying to say. To reiterate my point:

First off, no, people aren't selfish. They just want to be happy.

Secondly, "talent and personal merits" are completely subjective and of no use to society. Once again, no one cares about what you think you deserve. I think I am unparalleled in my ability to take a dump. I don't charge people money for it because no one wants to see it, no matter how much I think I "deserve" that money. No amount of self-entitlement is going to change that. I can say I deserve to win the world cup. It doesn't matter, because words like "deserve" and "merit" are bullshit concocted by the worlds sorer losers.

Finally,
Simon Hadow said:
But that wasn't what Craorach was talking about (Feel free to correct me on this if I'm misinterpreting this, Craorach) he was talking about real world, non-hypothetical situations like job interviews. Nobody is going to be more or less happy if they hire my friend over the autistic boy. Nobody will hire him to be anything more than a janitor out of sympathy to make themselves feel like a good person unless he can do something that another applicant can't that makes him better at the job.
Did you not read the part where I mentioned I was talking about a high school talent show?

I only mentioned it every time I replied. In literally every response.

This is a real, concrete situation in which someone actually got into a real-life high school talent show. We're not talking about job interviews, record deals, or the price of tomatoes.

Of course it's different in the "real world" when people's actual livelihoods are at stake. I was not in the least bit talking about that. The thread was not in the least bit talking about that. Did you read the poll? That wasn't in the least bit talking about that either.
Alright, I misunderstood you. Reality of Human communication, moving on. I accept your premise, however we have arrived at different conclusions. You see the the talent show as inconsequential enough that my even bothering to worry about it is silly, correct? I agree with that it is of little consequence, however I maintain that, regardless of significance, it's illogical to let someone without talent perform at an event in which talent is the very name.

PS: Yes, I read the Poll. in case you didn't realize, I'm the one who made the thread.
 

Kryzantine

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While a lot of posters bring up the point about how the autistic kid feels about getting his shot, I have to ask: what is the more musically talented kid feeling? If she is that much more talented, how is she going to feel about being tossed in favor of a lesser talent because the lesser act "has a condition"? How is she going to justify the work she put into her own craft?

If I take up cello tomorrow, I'm not going to be a concert performer in 4 weeks. And if I don't have the talent to be a concert performer, I'm never going to be one, autism or not.

This is a sensitive issue coming from me, because I know a lot of performers. My sister went to an arts and music high school, I went to a school with a TON of Asian kids who didn't go to the arts and music school because they wanted a better traditional education. I worked in my school's theater on tech duty and did a bit of acting myself. I know the effort that people put into it backstage. I know that I'm nowhere near as good as some of the kids from there. Oh, I have accents, but there was a limited character range I could put life into. They have more talent and they spend more time training it and perfecting it, they should have their shot before me. I spent my time working on my talents, they spend their time working on theirs.

I can say that HS audiences doesn't like that a kid is autistic or something; it goes unnoticed. Nobody's going to say, "Oh, he's pretty bad, but he looks like he's autistic, so we'll clap anyway". Keep that shit in elementary school or something, where effort should be rewarded more. But when it comes to talent, reward the people who have more talent. They've been at it for much longer.
 

Doclector

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Well, I have aspergers, and personally if I'm crap at something I wanna be told. I'd call it pandering, then. Hell, last thing the kid needs is to be held up in front of everyone who can then tell him he sucks.

Unless it was only you who thought he sucked. Did anyone else hate his performance? If not that might be just your personal taste.
 

Katana314

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As an autistic kid, I can quite easily say: Fuck the autistic kid in this case. ANYONE would feel awesome about going to a talent show and being included. Heck; some autistic people would have a BETTER shot because of talents that no non-autistic person would be able to demonstrate.

It's kind of like the idea of reverse-racism, or I don't know what you want to call it. Basically, if you're a hard-working person who earned his way forward and is applying for jobs, you may have one horrible obstacle in front of you: You're white, American-born, male, and middle-aged with no mental defects, just like a million other people. Meanwhile, that trio of the caucasian woman, the black dude and the younger indian guy are posing for the "diversity" covers of hundreds of different company websites.

I'm of the opinion everyone, minorities included, deserves their chance equally. This statement on its own, anyone would agree with, we just tend to disagree on exactly what this should mean. Some say this means in an 80%-male school, 50% of the crafts team must be made up of women so that women have a "fair chance".

"Autistic" doesn't mean you must be sympathized with forever, and cannot ever have any real talent. If you treat an autistic kid that way and never coax higher expectations out of him, he'll never realize his own flaws. That's exactly how I was brought up. I'm 21 years old, and most people can no longer tell I have autism.
 

Sarah Frazier

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The only thing I really disagree with is giving him second place if his performance was bad. Letting him in the show would boost his ego plenty and allow him to show off what he likes to do, but to give him the runner-up reward "because he needs it" is just silly. If the teachers feel he really needed it, they could have gotten a compensation prize for him afterwards for being so brave; that way the really talented kids get the rewards they get and the Autistic boy doesn't feel left out either.
 

Scoffy89

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Jan 12, 2011
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No he shouldn't have got got in at all. I agree with the fact that it would be a nice thing to do for him (boost his ego or whatever) but a talent show where people are there to show off TALENT should only allow those in who have anything to show off. Anyone with any kind of mental or physical problem should only be helped in any sense if help is necessary. Someone should not be dismissed if they are talented because its a good thing to do for someone else.

Katana314 said:
As an autistic kid, I can quite easily say: Fuck the autistic kid in this case. ANYONE would feel awesome about going to a talent show and being included. Heck; some autistic people would have a BETTER shot because of talents that no non-autistic person would be able to demonstrate.

It's kind of like the idea of reverse-racism, or I don't know what you want to call it. Basically, if you're a hard-working person who earned his way forward and is applying for jobs, you may have one horrible obstacle in front of you: You're white, American-born, male, and middle-aged with no mental defects, just like a million other people. Meanwhile, that trio of the caucasian woman, the black dude and the younger indian guy are posing for the "diversity" covers of hundreds of different company websites.

I'm of the opinion everyone, minorities included, deserves their chance equally. This statement on its own, anyone would agree with, we just tend to disagree on exactly what this should mean. Some say this means in an 80%-male school, 50% of the crafts team must be made up of women so that women have a "fair chance".

"Autistic" doesn't mean you must be sympathized with forever, and cannot ever have any real talent. If you treat an autistic kid that way and never coax higher expectations out of him, he'll never realize his own flaws. That's exactly how I was brought up. I'm 21 years old, and most people can no longer tell I have autism.
Also what this guy said.
 

Nouw

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Just because you have autism doesn't mean you should ruin the chance for someone else who could make better use of the night.

You should have equal chances, no matter what condition you're in.
 

elbrandino

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Dec 8, 2010
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I say no. Equality for everyone. If this was a talent show, the most talented should perform. If those with special needs want to be equals, they have to be treated like equals. So special anything for them if no one else gets it.