Hopefully I did it. Maybe? We'll see. Thanks for your advice! I greatly appreciate it!
To me, a man is such because they are sexually male. Gender is fluid and demanding that gender identity be called male or female only serves to further the concept of binary genders to insist to define a person as male or female by the unseen gender within. I believe my line of thinking is more in line with the message transgendered philosophy puts forward and I am somewhat surprised that this hasn't been adopted by the community yet. I think it's most likely to be because using their preferred pronoun is what they see as a form of acceptance. I find that silly. Acceptance is so much more than just using the same term. People will call Bruce Jenner "her" to avoid backlash without necessarily accepting anything about the person and their condition.
So if, when I say he or she, I'm talking about someone that is sexually male or female, how does that tie into gender in your mind? Especially when considering the concept of gender which is fluid and not necessarily tied to sex at all.
Well it's because some people develop/ have a stricly male/female gender identity and therefore would be liked to addressed as any other man/woman and that ususally includes the usage of male/female gender pronouns. Afterall you might meet man or women you never know that they are transgendered and still will use he/she for them. Technically you would go against your own rule by then since you used the ?wrong? pronouns for biologically male/female people. Your rule would therefore only apply to not well passing or people who you would find out out that there transgender. Or do you check for their biological sex everytime?
And yes acceptance is more than just using some terms but using the terms is a from of showing acceptance.
An imposition is not necessarily done by force. Think of the phrase, "Oh, I don't wish to impose" when a guest is offered an invitation to something that would require the person to go out of their way to accommodate them. Imposition is not forcing. Imposition is obligation by request. It is tedious to have to go over my words and plan them more carefully around an individual and I personally find the practice to make me less genuine around the few transgendered acquaintances (and one friend) that I have.
I just don't see how using their prefered pronouns is any more going out of someones way than using a new name for someone? In which way do you have to plan your words carefully? As you said yourself in normal conversation they hardley come up but I just don't see that it is an enormous requirement of mental power to atleast try to use to right pronoun.
The only thing I would find demanding to much is when they assume you'll get it right in the first few moments of meeting people.
Not entirely, I wish not to have to refer to someone as something they are not. I don't have to label them at all or want to call them a man if they don't want to be called that. I would prefer to instead drop pronouns rather than to do something I believe is dishonest. That isn't wishing to refer to someone as I see them so much as not wishing to refer to someone as I don't see them. Sorry if that's too nuanced.
What's more is that I don't wish people who aren't the individual in question to enforce my pronoun usage when the individual isn't there. I don't know if you're transgendered or not, but do you have any idea what it's like to first learn about this whole pronoun thing? For many of us, it's a confrontation, not a simple lesson. It's us using "he" or whatever and then getting our asses handed to us in a multiple minute long rant. That's our introduction. You don't see a guy in a dress for the first time and automatically realize you're supposed to use "her" or "she". It's (the assault of getting it wrong for the first time, not a guy in a dress) just nuts and has nothing to do with whether or not you accept a transgendered individual as a person or believe that they've got a legitimate condition, both of which I do. But holy shit, who wants to walk on egg shells every time they're around anyone? I just want to be able to hang out and have a good time with them and not worry that I might inadvertently say something to trigger a rant. I want them to have a good time too so I still do my best. But heck, most of the transgendered people I know aren't the ones who would do the rant. It's usually some jerk imposing things without the other person even knowing about it because they think its' their job to swoop in and protect the transgendered individual from any possible mistake someone else can make.
Here is the thing: I personally don't think you should scream or verbally harrass someone just because they got the pronoun wrong and I'm sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. Maybe if people would have been nicer and showed you how much it means to the person in question you'd be more willing use pronouns of their gender identity. Or maybe if they would explained to you that if all of your friends refer to a person as she but you're the only one calling them he they might get confused.
Not the way a person looks. The sex they were born as. At least one trans woman I know well absolutely does not look like a man at all. By all appearances, a quite attractive female.
Consider it like my orientation. I am oriented to be attracted to females who are sexually female and as such I have a strict distinction between males and females just like anyone who isn't bisexual does (and heck, maybe many bisexuals have a firm distinction there too). So I am hard coded to perceive the female sex as one thing and the male sex as quite another. When I say "he" or "she" I am referring to their sex, not their gender.In my mind, I am in no way discussing their gender. It is irrelevant to the pronouns of 'he' and 'she' when used thus. This is why I have such a hard time converting it and don't feel comfortable forcing it.
It most cases that would be how a person look since you most of the time cannot see their junk or know about their status, If for example you meet a man you know nothing about and you find him nice and charming and you might think to yourself ?He is really a nice dude.? And then someone would tell you he is trans. Would you then switch gender pronouns when talking with others about him. And why would it matter now? Why is accknowleging his female sex now so important if you spend maybe days perfeclty fine with calling im he in conversations he was nor around?
To my knowledge, I have not been detected as doing so for years now. Either that or they value my friendship too much to bring it up. I wonder what I'd say to them if they confronted me on it? I'd probably cave and just give them what they want I suppose. But right now, this makes me feel like I'm in control of myself and my own reality. It's important to me in a way not entirely unlike how they are wanting to have control over their own reality. It's just that their desire conflicts with mine and I'm not sure why I should be the one automatically folding just because people get all hot and bothered over it.
You see my main problem here is that you position just seems a bit inconsitent to me. You don't want to bend over when someone gets bothered by something but why then draw the line only by pronouns? Why bend over to call them by their new name, why at all avoid their pronouns, if the only thing keeping you from it is not offending them?
I'm actually quite amazed you would give them their pronouns if they asked you for it. What exaclty makes you cave in? Maybe your friendship and their happiness is more meaningful to you than sticking to the pronouns but if you can this then why not any other time?
I hardly think that using "he" or "she" is anything close to treating someone as male or female anymore than calling someone a ***** is treating them like a lady. Please don't misunderstand, my use of pronouns is pretty much my entire hold out here. In any aspects the individual is entirely treated as the sex they're presenting as. Like I said in a previous post, what do you think I'm doing? Challenging them to a "sword fight" (in which two males whip out their penis and urinate while crossing the pee streams)? If you treat everyone politely, then how would you specifically treat someone as a male or female aside from expressing romantic interest? I open the door for men and women alike, for example.
See this^ is the part that kind of confuses me. We use he/him for men and she/her for women how is then that not using these is not deneying them atleast some gendered aspekt of language? Did you ever use he for a woman?Afterall you do use their new name which is often also gendered or sexed. I could say certain names are for people of one sex or the other. By your logic you could deney naming someone Sarah arguing that this name is for people of female sex and you may use an androgenous name for them but not any cleary female name. Names afterall also serve as a distinction between the sexes but you don't do that you only (and this is somewhat strange) have reservations for pronouns.
I just don't understand why you are willing to use gendered language of ther prefered wish in any other case than pronouns? What is so fundamental different from a gender pronoun to a gendered name?
FYI, there are also studies showing that reassignment surgeries fail in a lot of ways to resolve the issue. Making things better is a far cry from a resolution. The end result may be a combination of the two things, I simply don't know and I think social ostracism of any doctors pursuing non-surgical results is a shame when we should all be in favor of pursuing the best possible results.
Here's a question, what if the gender could be changed instead of the sex? Would that be an option you think medical science should pursue?
I read a lot about them and will agree they have some problems but then again any treatment for anything has. They do good and they do so much good that most individuals lead a happier more adjusted life aftewards and that's all that's counts to me. The most striking problem is usually the lack of acceptance. You might be happier with body but that doesn't do anything if nobody respects your gender identity, your family quits contact or you can't get a job because transgender apperance may scare away customers.
Also doctors do not get ostracised for a non surgical solution. Atleast I've never heard of that. Do you know any specific example? It happens quite a lot that transgender people who are in therapy do not undergo any surgery. A great transgender researcher with the name Pfäffling once said that you cannot push any patient in one direction or another but if you show them possibilites they can chose to find what's right for them.
That depens on how invasive the treament is. Some people also argue that changing someones gender is basically elimenating an important part of their personality and there is some moral issues to be had with that but if there was a way to change your gender (identity) I would always leave it up to the person in question and therefore I wouldn't be against scientist researching in that area.
(Sorry I couldn't get the qouting to work)
To me, a man is such because they are sexually male. Gender is fluid and demanding that gender identity be called male or female only serves to further the concept of binary genders to insist to define a person as male or female by the unseen gender within. I believe my line of thinking is more in line with the message transgendered philosophy puts forward and I am somewhat surprised that this hasn't been adopted by the community yet. I think it's most likely to be because using their preferred pronoun is what they see as a form of acceptance. I find that silly. Acceptance is so much more than just using the same term. People will call Bruce Jenner "her" to avoid backlash without necessarily accepting anything about the person and their condition.
So if, when I say he or she, I'm talking about someone that is sexually male or female, how does that tie into gender in your mind? Especially when considering the concept of gender which is fluid and not necessarily tied to sex at all.
Well it's because some people develop/ have a stricly male/female gender identity and therefore would be liked to addressed as any other man/woman and that ususally includes the usage of male/female gender pronouns. Afterall you might meet man or women you never know that they are transgendered and still will use he/she for them. Technically you would go against your own rule by then since you used the ?wrong? pronouns for biologically male/female people. Your rule would therefore only apply to not well passing or people who you would find out out that there transgender. Or do you check for their biological sex everytime?
And yes acceptance is more than just using some terms but using the terms is a from of showing acceptance.
An imposition is not necessarily done by force. Think of the phrase, "Oh, I don't wish to impose" when a guest is offered an invitation to something that would require the person to go out of their way to accommodate them. Imposition is not forcing. Imposition is obligation by request. It is tedious to have to go over my words and plan them more carefully around an individual and I personally find the practice to make me less genuine around the few transgendered acquaintances (and one friend) that I have.
I just don't see how using their prefered pronouns is any more going out of someones way than using a new name for someone? In which way do you have to plan your words carefully? As you said yourself in normal conversation they hardley come up but I just don't see that it is an enormous requirement of mental power to atleast try to use to right pronoun.
The only thing I would find demanding to much is when they assume you'll get it right in the first few moments of meeting people.
Not entirely, I wish not to have to refer to someone as something they are not. I don't have to label them at all or want to call them a man if they don't want to be called that. I would prefer to instead drop pronouns rather than to do something I believe is dishonest. That isn't wishing to refer to someone as I see them so much as not wishing to refer to someone as I don't see them. Sorry if that's too nuanced.
What's more is that I don't wish people who aren't the individual in question to enforce my pronoun usage when the individual isn't there. I don't know if you're transgendered or not, but do you have any idea what it's like to first learn about this whole pronoun thing? For many of us, it's a confrontation, not a simple lesson. It's us using "he" or whatever and then getting our asses handed to us in a multiple minute long rant. That's our introduction. You don't see a guy in a dress for the first time and automatically realize you're supposed to use "her" or "she". It's (the assault of getting it wrong for the first time, not a guy in a dress) just nuts and has nothing to do with whether or not you accept a transgendered individual as a person or believe that they've got a legitimate condition, both of which I do. But holy shit, who wants to walk on egg shells every time they're around anyone? I just want to be able to hang out and have a good time with them and not worry that I might inadvertently say something to trigger a rant. I want them to have a good time too so I still do my best. But heck, most of the transgendered people I know aren't the ones who would do the rant. It's usually some jerk imposing things without the other person even knowing about it because they think its' their job to swoop in and protect the transgendered individual from any possible mistake someone else can make.
Here is the thing: I personally don't think you should scream or verbally harrass someone just because they got the pronoun wrong and I'm sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. Maybe if people would have been nicer and showed you how much it means to the person in question you'd be more willing use pronouns of their gender identity. Or maybe if they would explained to you that if all of your friends refer to a person as she but you're the only one calling them he they might get confused.
Not the way a person looks. The sex they were born as. At least one trans woman I know well absolutely does not look like a man at all. By all appearances, a quite attractive female.
Consider it like my orientation. I am oriented to be attracted to females who are sexually female and as such I have a strict distinction between males and females just like anyone who isn't bisexual does (and heck, maybe many bisexuals have a firm distinction there too). So I am hard coded to perceive the female sex as one thing and the male sex as quite another. When I say "he" or "she" I am referring to their sex, not their gender.In my mind, I am in no way discussing their gender. It is irrelevant to the pronouns of 'he' and 'she' when used thus. This is why I have such a hard time converting it and don't feel comfortable forcing it.
It most cases that would be how a person look since you most of the time cannot see their junk or know about their status, If for example you meet a man you know nothing about and you find him nice and charming and you might think to yourself ?He is really a nice dude.? And then someone would tell you he is trans. Would you then switch gender pronouns when talking with others about him. And why would it matter now? Why is accknowleging his female sex now so important if you spend maybe days perfeclty fine with calling im he in conversations he was nor around?
To my knowledge, I have not been detected as doing so for years now. Either that or they value my friendship too much to bring it up. I wonder what I'd say to them if they confronted me on it? I'd probably cave and just give them what they want I suppose. But right now, this makes me feel like I'm in control of myself and my own reality. It's important to me in a way not entirely unlike how they are wanting to have control over their own reality. It's just that their desire conflicts with mine and I'm not sure why I should be the one automatically folding just because people get all hot and bothered over it.
You see my main problem here is that you position just seems a bit inconsitent to me. You don't want to bend over when someone gets bothered by something but why then draw the line only by pronouns? Why bend over to call them by their new name, why at all avoid their pronouns, if the only thing keeping you from it is not offending them?
I'm actually quite amazed you would give them their pronouns if they asked you for it. What exaclty makes you cave in? Maybe your friendship and their happiness is more meaningful to you than sticking to the pronouns but if you can this then why not any other time?
I hardly think that using "he" or "she" is anything close to treating someone as male or female anymore than calling someone a ***** is treating them like a lady. Please don't misunderstand, my use of pronouns is pretty much my entire hold out here. In any aspects the individual is entirely treated as the sex they're presenting as. Like I said in a previous post, what do you think I'm doing? Challenging them to a "sword fight" (in which two males whip out their penis and urinate while crossing the pee streams)? If you treat everyone politely, then how would you specifically treat someone as a male or female aside from expressing romantic interest? I open the door for men and women alike, for example.
See this^ is the part that kind of confuses me. We use he/him for men and she/her for women how is then that not using these is not deneying them atleast some gendered aspekt of language? Did you ever use he for a woman?Afterall you do use their new name which is often also gendered or sexed. I could say certain names are for people of one sex or the other. By your logic you could deney naming someone Sarah arguing that this name is for people of female sex and you may use an androgenous name for them but not any cleary female name. Names afterall also serve as a distinction between the sexes but you don't do that you only (and this is somewhat strange) have reservations for pronouns.
I just don't understand why you are willing to use gendered language of ther prefered wish in any other case than pronouns? What is so fundamental different from a gender pronoun to a gendered name?
FYI, there are also studies showing that reassignment surgeries fail in a lot of ways to resolve the issue. Making things better is a far cry from a resolution. The end result may be a combination of the two things, I simply don't know and I think social ostracism of any doctors pursuing non-surgical results is a shame when we should all be in favor of pursuing the best possible results.
Here's a question, what if the gender could be changed instead of the sex? Would that be an option you think medical science should pursue?
I read a lot about them and will agree they have some problems but then again any treatment for anything has. They do good and they do so much good that most individuals lead a happier more adjusted life aftewards and that's all that's counts to me. The most striking problem is usually the lack of acceptance. You might be happier with body but that doesn't do anything if nobody respects your gender identity, your family quits contact or you can't get a job because transgender apperance may scare away customers.
Also doctors do not get ostracised for a non surgical solution. Atleast I've never heard of that. Do you know any specific example? It happens quite a lot that transgender people who are in therapy do not undergo any surgery. A great transgender researcher with the name Pfäffling once said that you cannot push any patient in one direction or another but if you show them possibilites they can chose to find what's right for them.
That depens on how invasive the treament is. Some people also argue that changing someones gender is basically elimenating an important part of their personality and there is some moral issues to be had with that but if there was a way to change your gender (identity) I would always leave it up to the person in question and therefore I wouldn't be against scientist researching in that area.
(Sorry I couldn't get the qouting to work)