Poll: There are only 2 genders....right?

[lunavixen]

Biologically there are three sexes (including Intersex), but sex =/= gender. Gender is more to do with how people identify (cisgender, transgender and genderqueer for example), and there are more than 2 gender identities (I can think of at least 8 off the top of my head). This is different again to sexual orientation.

It's a complicated issue, not something that can really be asked as a binary question without clarifying terms.

 

[sumanoskae]

If you want to talk biology, then yes. But people often use gender to refer to sexual self identity, which could be a vast spectrum. As for why anyone feels the need for 64 different ways to describe their sexuality, I couldn't tell you. There exists no perfect summery of you; nobody except you has the context necessary for understanding yourself.

It's like trying to paint a self portrait by assembling scraps of paper torn from other artwork.

I understand that many people feel like society's idea of gender doesn't have a place for them, that it excludes them. But it must be understood that this is a problem inherent in any system of archetypes. You're never going to find someone who has managed to encapsulate you; for all practical ends, it's statistically impossible.

Back to the painting metaphor: How do you expect someone else to paint accurate self portrait of you, when they've never even met you?

Defining yourself and other's with archetypes will make you feel isolated, because archetypes do not describe anyone; they describe the impressions s few individuals have of humanity as a whole; the few surface elements that people have in common, or at least seem to have in common.

People who fit in do not ,in fact, fit in; they're just very good at hiding the things that make them different. They are not surrounded by kindred spirits, they just conform; express to others only the things they have in common.

One thing we all have in common is that we get lonely.

But hey, just because I don't get it, doesn't mean people can't benefit from it. If system with 64 gender archetypes instead of 2 makes you feel more in touch with yourself or makes your life better, that's your business; no harm, no foul.

 

[LetalisK]

Holy shit. I fucking love this thread. For years I thought I was one of the few that drew a distinction between sex and gender this way. To mimic what many people said there are two sexes, but gender is something culturally based that defines one's relationship to societal norms and expectations. While we can probably create a number of gender categories to classify the vast majority of people, that relationship has theoretically infinite possibilities as I see it as less of a check box and more of a totality of our experience. Kind of like how you can classify people by certain personalities, but in reality everyone who is a Red personality, though they may share many traits, don't all act like they're carbon copies of each other.

 

[Hattingston]

There are more than two genders. Gender and sex are two entirely different and distinct things, and while society typically pairs having a vagina with being a woman and having a penis with being a man, that is frequently not the case. There are also people who are agender (don't identify as any gender) people who are genderfluid (shift between different genders), as well as many other genders. I don't know how many genders there are, but they do not necessarily correlate to sex. Gender is a psychological thing that has to do with brain chemistry, and from what I understand most psychologists acknowledge that there are more than two genders.

 

[Hagi]

I'd say two.

Not as in two absolutes, but even looking at that Facebook list there's a complete absence of a true third.

Everything is either male with some prefix, female with some prefix, neither with some prefix, both with some prefix or in-between with some prefix.

The very first option on the list is agender, followed closely by androgynous. You didn't read the list, did you?

There's nothing on that list that can't be described in terms of male and female.

Imagine a graph with two axes. One male. One female.

Everything on that list is on that graph. Agender is at 0, 0. Androgynous is at 5, 5. Male is at 0, 10. Female is at 10, 0. Most real people probably at a point with a heck load of decimals.

All the same there's no third axis. No third gender. Merely combinations of the two.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I'd say two.

Not as in two absolutes, but even looking at that Facebook list there's a complete absence of a true third.

Everything is either male with some prefix, female with some prefix, neither with some prefix, both with some prefix or in-between with some prefix.

The very first option on the list is agender, followed closely by androgynous. You didn't read the list, did you?

There's nothing on that list that can't be described in terms of male and female.

Imagine a graph with two axes. One male. One female.

Everything on that list is on that graph. Agender is at 0, 0. Androgynous is at 5, 5. Male is at 0, 10. Female is at 10, 0. Most real people probably at a point with a heck load of decimals.

All the same there's no third axis. No third gender. Merely combinations of the two.

Well if you think about it being genderless/agender in personality is a gender from identity stand point having no gender, which makes it a hard to grasp concept. As is Bigender which is actively identifying as both, then you have androgynous which identifies and projects as both and neither at the same time. The you have genderfluid people who switch gender identity internally not on a whim, but because suddenly their brain tells them they're female that day, or male, or really neither, or both. Genderqueer people who identify outside of established gender norms, despite their birth sex, and their gender identity is fluid and/or nonconforming. Genderneutral who consider all gender ideals to be equally valid for them, but that identity is not actively applicable to either sex in particular.

With gender being an active state of mind and identity, it can get very existential in concept. While the binary exists, many people fall outside the norms of the binary, even cisgender(gender identity matching biological sex) males and females don't always conform to all standards of their birth gender. Purely binary gender is a western concept, and it's strict in the sense that it allows no deviation from norms conforming to birth sex. Where as in many cultures around the world, and many through out history consider people who don't conform to be outside the sex binary, thus a third/fourth/etc gender.

 

[Ishigami]

The statement is correct. There are only two genders.
The gender may differ from the sex but there are still only two valid options.

 

[Hagi]

Well if you think about it being genderless/agender in personality is a gender from identity stand point having no gender, which makes it a hard to grasp concept. As is Bigender which is actively identifying as both, then you have androgynous which identifies and projects as both and neither at the same time. The you have genderfluid people who switch gender identity internally not on a whim, but because suddenly their brain tells them they're female that day, or male, or really neither, or both. Genderqueer people who identify outside of established gender norms, despite their birth sex, and their gender identity is fluid and/or nonconforming. Genderneutral who consider all gender ideals to be equally valid for them, but that identity is not actively applicable to either sex in particular.

With gender being an active state of mind and identity, it can get very existential in concept. While the binary exists, many people fall outside the norms of the binary, even cisgender(gender identity matching biological sex) males and females don't always conform to all standards of their birth gender. Purely binary gender is a western concept, and it's strict in the sense that it allows no deviation from norms conforming to birth sex. Where as in many cultures around the world, and many through out history consider people who don't conform to be outside the sex binary, thus a third/fourth/etc gender.

I don't really see any of these as genders much as I don't see red with blue spots as a color.

It's a valid answer to the question what color your cup is. But it's not a color in and of itself. It's a mix of colors.

You only mention mixes of male and female, sometimes changing. Your own language reflects that. You only mention male, female, neither and both. There's no distinct third, let alone more.

 

[Sandjube]

Maybe some time ago I would have answered differently but I frankly no longer care and just agree with people these days.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

Well if you think about it being genderless/agender in personality is a gender from identity stand point having no gender, which makes it a hard to grasp concept. As is Bigender which is actively identifying as both, then you have androgynous which identifies and projects as both and neither at the same time. The you have genderfluid people who switch gender identity internally not on a whim, but because suddenly their brain tells them they're female that day, or male, or really neither, or both. Genderqueer people who identify outside of established gender norms, despite their birth sex, and their gender identity is fluid and/or nonconforming. Genderneutral who consider all gender ideals to be equally valid for them, but that identity is not actively applicable to either sex in particular.

With gender being an active state of mind and identity, it can get very existential in concept. While the binary exists, many people fall outside the norms of the binary, even cisgender(gender identity matching biological sex) males and females don't always conform to all standards of their birth gender. Purely binary gender is a western concept, and it's strict in the sense that it allows no deviation from norms conforming to birth sex. Where as in many cultures around the world, and many through out history consider people who don't conform to be outside the sex binary, thus a third/fourth/etc gender.

I don't really see any of these as genders much as I don't see red with blue spots as a color.

It's a valid answer to the question what color your cup is. But it's not a color in and of itself. It's a mix of colors.

You only mention mixes of male and female, sometimes changing. Your own language reflects that. You only mention male, female, neither and both. There's no distinct third, let alone more.

Ah the color analogy is actually a applicable one here! You see the red and blue colors, but you're essentially ignoring the yellow, the green, the purple, the brown, and all the other colors of the spectrum. It's like they say, not everything is black and white, there are plenty of shades of grey, and all sorts of other colors. Hence why the rainbow analogy is often made when it comes to gender identity and sexuality.

I'll clarify by talking about cisgender as the standard, while it is the standard because the vast majority of people fall into male/man, or female/woman. So that's the standard of the binary, but if you deviate from that, you're suddenly outside the binary. Think of it not as a graph but as a sphere, where cisgender male and cisgender female represent the north and south poles, everyone else falls into neither pole and somewhere inside the rest of the sphere. I hope that clears up my position.

 

[Kardsymalone]

No because there are mutations where there are more than 2 sexes
There is XX XY XXY XYY sometimes even YY these "other" genders are considered hermaphrodites and do constitute as sexes
But most of this tumblr sexes thing is bullshit you could argue there's more than two genders but then you
re just arguing semantics

 

[Politrukk]

BUT WAIT

You were born a man, but you feel like a woman.
What does that make you then?

Well if you have a sexchange.
That makes you a woman.

Actually they are still a man. They just have had surgery to look like a woman. But they are still a man.

Well I believe if there's any case in which we're allowed to shift the goalposts a little it's in the surgery department, at least... unless we're waiting for the day where one can fully genetically or biologically engineer the sexes/gender.

 

[Politrukk]

Well if you think about it being genderless/agender in personality is a gender from identity stand point having no gender, which makes it a hard to grasp concept. As is Bigender which is actively identifying as both, then you have androgynous which identifies and projects as both and neither at the same time. The you have genderfluid people who switch gender identity internally not on a whim, but because suddenly their brain tells them they're female that day, or male, or really neither, or both. Genderqueer people who identify outside of established gender norms, despite their birth sex, and their gender identity is fluid and/or nonconforming. Genderneutral who consider all gender ideals to be equally valid for them, but that identity is not actively applicable to either sex in particular.

With gender being an active state of mind and identity, it can get very existential in concept. While the binary exists, many people fall outside the norms of the binary, even cisgender(gender identity matching biological sex) males and females don't always conform to all standards of their birth gender. Purely binary gender is a western concept, and it's strict in the sense that it allows no deviation from norms conforming to birth sex. Where as in many cultures around the world, and many through out history consider people who don't conform to be outside the sex binary, thus a third/fourth/etc gender.

I don't really see any of these as genders much as I don't see red with blue spots as a color.

It's a valid answer to the question what color your cup is. But it's not a color in and of itself. It's a mix of colors.

You only mention mixes of male and female, sometimes changing. Your own language reflects that. You only mention male, female, neither and both. There's no distinct third, let alone more.

Ah the color analogy is actually a applicable one here! You see the red and blue colors, but you're essentially ignoring the yellow, the green, the purple, the brown, and all the other colors of the spectrum. It's like they say, not everything is black and white, there are plenty of shades of grey, and all sorts of other colors. Hence why the rainbow analogy is often made when it comes to gender identity and sexuality.

I'll clarify by talking about cisgender as the standard, while it is the standard because the vast majority of people fall into male/man, or female/woman. So that's the standard of the binary, but if you deviate from that, you're suddenly outside the binary. Think of it not as a graph but as a sphere, where cisgender male and cisgender female represent the north and south poles, everyone else falls into neither pole and somewhere inside the rest of the sphere. I hope that clears up my position.

I don't want to be mean but there's a fallacy in your reasoning.

See the colour spectrum starts with the spectrum of light.
Which in it's purest essence seems white but is a combination of three colours: Red/Yellow/Blue (there is some argument about that but let's just keep it at this one to keep it simple)

Aside from that there's what happens when we have a total absence of light : (what we perceive as) Black
A pure form of light: White
And everything inbetween : Gray/Colour


So there's the light spectrum and the colour spectrum which both have very defined limitations.

All colours for example the ones you named, stem from combinations of the original colour spectrum.

Red and yellow make orange
Blue and yellow make green
Red and blue make purple

And we build from there.


My point being and the point the person you're responding to is probably also making :

There is Red-Yellow-Blue

Those are the basics, there's not Xsamikon the entire new fangled colour that some people are discriminating against.
It's just simply not there, you know why?
Because I just made it up.

The same goes for biology.

You can have a certain set of reproductive organs and hormones.

Whilst these can influence your Sexuality they can not however influence your Sex/Gender.

Any gender/sex discussion we are having is based on the presence or absence of said organs and hormones.

 

[Eclipse Dragon]

I don't really see any of these as genders much as I don't see red with blue spots as a color.

It's a valid answer to the question what color your cup is. But it's not a color in and of itself. It's a mix of colors.

But if you mix red and blue, you get purple, which is classified as a color of it's own.

[sub][sub]I'm not actually making a point here, just saying, maybe you should've said red with green spots, but even those mixed together make a sort of brownish muddy color, which is still a different color.[/sub][/sub]

 

[DANEgerous]

Objectively I would say there are no genders and two sexes which are not entirely binary due to flaws in biology. Subjectivity I would say there are only two genders that do not represent a binary and can be ignored.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

I don't want to be mean but there's a fallacy in your reasoning.

See the colour spectrum starts with the spectrum of light.
Which in it's purest essence seems white but is a combination of three colours: Red/Yellow/Blue (there is some argument about that but let's just keep it at this one to keep it simple)

Aside from that there's what happens when we have a total absence of light : (what we perceive as) Black
A pure form of light: White
And everything inbetween : Gray/Colour


So there's the light spectrum and the colour spectrum which both have very defined limitations.

All colours for example the ones you named, stem from combinations of the original colour spectrum.

Red and yellow make orange
Blue and yellow make green
Red and blue make purple

And we build from there.


My point being and the point the person you're responding to is probably also making :

There is Red-Yellow-Blue

Those are the basics, there's not Xsamikon the entire new fangled colour that some people are discriminating against.
It's just simply not there, you know why?
Because I just made it up.

The same goes for biology.

You can have a certain set of reproductive organs and hormones.

Whilst these can influence your Sexuality they can not however influence your Sex/Gender.

Any gender/sex discussion we are having is based on the presence or absence of said organs and hormones.

Actually color spectrum is based on wave length of light, the reason Red, Blue, and Yellow are primary colors that need to mix for us to perceive them as different for a reason that has nothing to do with the mixed colors just being a mix. It's a perception based on the limitations of biology, because the cone cells in our eyes come in red, blue, and yellow detection. That does not make different colors the same just because they're a mix. Besides it's all photons travelling as light speed waves, so technically all color and light is the same thing.

Still you missed the point fantastically. I apparently need to state this again because people just ignore it; Gender and sex as terminology are NOT the same thing. This is due to the fact that humans are basically the only fully sentient species on earth. No other animal has a real concept of gender, because gender is a construct of human social behaviour. They have a concept of sex is apparent to animals, but mostly through the reproductive drive, humans on the other hand are not consumed with reproduction to the point of it being compulsory. That makes it a choice, since we have the power to make active choices about such deep primal instincts, we can make choices other animals cannot. That also means that as with such an advanced social structure we can active label things and make choices with those things, even if those things only exist as a social concept.

So since sex is biological and gender is a social existential concept the presence or absence of any organs is moot in regards to gender. Also gender identity and sexuality are entirely separate from each other, this is why homosexuals exist. Transgender is not a sexuality as gender identity is not directly linked to sexual preference. So don't throw accusations of flawed logic then respond with ignorance.

 

[wizzy555]

Gender is nothing and everything, gender is the alpha and gender is the omega, gender is in the infinite and the numinous, gender proceeds and preceeds essence.

 

[kasperbbs]

Biologically there are two, nothing else really matters.

 

[THM]

Well this is going to turn out good, isn't it? Like covering yourself in honey and hoping for a bear NOT to attack you.

Hey, don't knock it 'til you've tried it.

OT: Definitely an interesting subject to look into - complicated, but interesting.

 

[MonsterCrit]

In the race to be politically correct... society has overcomplicated things.

I mean OP COnsider the scenario.
I am a man who feels like a woman that likes to crossdress as a man. WHat gender am I really?

Though to be pedantic. there are only 3 sexes. Gender is a combination of self-identity and societal role. You can say you're a man that feels like a woman. But what do you really know about women anyway? Is it just that you identify more with the opposite gender than your own?

Then you bring into the mix that these states need not be fixed. I can feel like a woman trapped in a mans body this year or a man trapped in a woman, trapped in xcross dressers body next year. Since it's more an expression of psychology than physiology and psychology being what it is, people can change this many times in their lives.

So basically I just go by... what equpiment you were born with. Did you have a uterus, a pair of ovaries and fallopian tubes when you were born? You're female. If not.. you're male. If you were born with both sets. You're a hermaphrodite. (yes that does occasionally happen).

That determines your sex. As for gender I just make a rule that the more complex someones gender identity is, the less I should probably be spending around them. If you can't sum it up with an most 2 words, you need to see a shrink.