Poll: What piracy is actually doing

pseudo721

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As a game programmer myself, I gotta say it actually kinda does hurt a little bit. Moreso with smaller, indie developers. Imagine if you were an artist selling paintings on a street corner stand, and some guy walks up, commenting how much he loves one of the paintings. Then he snaps a picture of it with his camera and heads over to Kinkos.

That a really exaggerated example, and it's true that the big companies like EA, Activision, M$, etc. aren't REALLY hurt by such actions, but many smaller developers literally cannot afford to continue making games unless their current games are successful.
 

DaOysterboy

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tjcross said:
DaOysterboy said:
tjcross said:
DaOysterboy said:
snip
More snip
CRAP did it again sorry about that i've grown acustom to having to defend every single thing i say like this that i can't stop myself also i'll apologize for digging up the crap you were trying to escape another of my many bad moves. so can we just agree to disagree or whatever and drop this before i make myself look any more like and ignorant asshole than i already have?
Meh... it's the internet. As my initial post illustrates, it's easy to say/do stuff that you normally wouldn't. No hard feelings.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Jul 15, 2009
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tjcross said:
chozo_hybrid said:
littlewilly91 said:
I don't think people without enough income should be locked out of entertainment if free copies of it can be made anyway.
If they can't afford games, perhaps they should just get books from a library or whatever. There are other cheaper and legal forms of entertainment.
you're forgetting that videogames are a different form of entertainment not all people like books or movies games are generally more immersive than a movie or book and some people are not in an area were a library is withing a distance that wouldn't cost them to much on gas same with a game store. though it is still wrong to the steal the games but there are reasons for many crimes this included. Some pirates like me pirate a game to get past the drm or to replace a broken disc AFTER buying the game so not all pirates are thieves. Just like any other crime there is no clear evil in it. also if the industry stopped putting the large sum they put into drm then they would make up for the missed sales and stop the people who pirate to avoid the damn drm since once a game is cracked it stays cracked so the drm is just a setback not a way to stop the theft. wow this is a long one.
That's still hardly a valid excuse, if they have access to the net, then they have access to a ton of free games online that are legal.

I'm sorry, but the whole "These are different and more immersible making stealing it more understandable." excuse is getting old.

Saying, I wouldn't buy it, but I would play it, then pirating is hurting the devs. Because the only way to play it (minus piracy) is by buying it. My brother works for a videogame developer and they have been struggling through this economic nightmare and piracy isn't helping them, it is actually hurting them.
 

Zarokima

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After I learned about piracy, my game purchases went way up since I could be exposed to a much larger selection of games that I would never have even tried out before because I didn't want to spend $50 on something that might be crap. If a game sucks, that's fine because I lost nothing but some time. If a game is good, I then go out and buy it to support the developers.

So in my case at least, piracy is a good thing for the companies.
 

tjcross

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chozo_hybrid said:
tjcross said:
chozo_hybrid said:
littlewilly91 said:
I don't think people without enough income should be locked out of entertainment if free copies of it can be made anyway.
If they can't afford games, perhaps they should just get books from a library or whatever. There are other cheaper and legal forms of entertainment.
you're forgetting that videogames are a different form of entertainment not all people like books or movies games are generally more immersive than a movie or book and some people are not in an area were a library is withing a distance that wouldn't cost them to much on gas same with a game store. though it is still wrong to the steal the games but there are reasons for many crimes this included. Some pirates like me pirate a game to get past the drm or to replace a broken disc AFTER buying the game so not all pirates are thieves. Just like any other crime there is no clear evil in it. also if the industry stopped putting the large sum they put into drm then they would make up for the missed sales and stop the people who pirate to avoid the damn drm since once a game is cracked it stays cracked so the drm is just a setback not a way to stop the theft. wow this is a long one.
That's still hardly a valid excuse, if they have access to the net, then they have access to a ton of free games online that are legal.

I'm sorry, but the whole "These are different and more immersible making stealing it more understandable." excuse is getting old.

Saying, I wouldn't buy it, but I would play it, then pirating is hurting the devs. Because the only way to play it (minus piracy) is by buying it. My brother works for a videogame developer and they have been struggling through this economic nightmare and piracy isn't helping them, it is actually hurting them.
look more understandable doesn't mean right ok i'm just trying to show reason other than there lazy arses who don't want to pay or people who could walk to the store and pick a game up but don't feel like it ok. i think you're mixing up understandable and right and that is a flaw in the argument and you know what good for your brother for being a game developer i honestly am hoping to be a video game artist but if you don't want to understand WHY someone does something then don't get into arguments it's rather annoying.
 

chozo_hybrid

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Jul 15, 2009
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tjcross said:
chozo_hybrid said:
tjcross said:
chozo_hybrid said:
littlewilly91 said:
I don't think people without enough income should be locked out of entertainment if free copies of it can be made anyway.
If they can't afford games, perhaps they should just get books from a library or whatever. There are other cheaper and legal forms of entertainment.
you're forgetting that videogames are a different form of entertainment not all people like books or movies games are generally more immersive than a movie or book and some people are not in an area were a library is withing a distance that wouldn't cost them to much on gas same with a game store. though it is still wrong to the steal the games but there are reasons for many crimes this included. Some pirates like me pirate a game to get past the drm or to replace a broken disc AFTER buying the game so not all pirates are thieves. Just like any other crime there is no clear evil in it. also if the industry stopped putting the large sum they put into drm then they would make up for the missed sales and stop the people who pirate to avoid the damn drm since once a game is cracked it stays cracked so the drm is just a setback not a way to stop the theft. wow this is a long one.
That's still hardly a valid excuse, if they have access to the net, then they have access to a ton of free games online that are legal.

I'm sorry, but the whole "These are different and more immersible making stealing it more understandable." excuse is getting old.

Saying, I wouldn't buy it, but I would play it, then pirating is hurting the devs. Because the only way to play it (minus piracy) is by buying it. My brother works for a videogame developer and they have been struggling through this economic nightmare and piracy isn't helping them, it is actually hurting them.
look more understandable doesn't mean right ok i'm just trying to show reason other than there lazy arses who don't want to pay or people who could walk to the store and pick a game up but don't feel like it ok. i think you're mixing up understandable and right and that is a flaw in the argument and you know what good for your brother for being a game developer i honestly am hoping to be a video game artist but if you don't want to understand WHY someone does something then don't get into arguments it's rather annoying.
I must have misinterpreted what you meant, I get why most people do it. There are very few who pirate and can't afford games, I know this because ask many who do and they have the money to go out drinking and get fast food etc like a lot of my friends -_-

To be honest, it's not a matter of me understanding WHY they do it. It's them understand WHY they do it, most just do it for the ease of the method.

LightOfDarkness said:
Any game that's worth pirating has most likely made about $200 for each pirated copy.
You're basing this on what exactly?
 

Jofrak

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chozo_hybrid said:
I must have misinterpreted what you meant, I get why most people do it. There are very few who pirate and can't afford games, I know this because ask many who do and they have the money to go out drinking and get fast food etc like a lot of my friends -_-

To be honest, it's not a matter of me understanding WHY they do it. It's them understand WHY they do it, most just do it for the ease of the method.



You're basing this on what exactly?
To be quite frankly honest .... if someone really doesn't feel like buying the game they aren't going to buy it. There are plenty of other 'legal' ways of playing the game that still don't involve putting any money back towards the Games Companies. If I fancy playing at a game I'm not going to buy I'll just borrow it off a friend or play it at theirs, or rent it.
It gets round the Project $10 bollox, and it gets round me buying the game.
 

Caradinist

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Concerning "DRM". Piracy is going to be big with or without it. It's just that with the DRM, it paints pirates as some sort of noble robin hoods fighting the man. Or the rumrunners fighting against prohibition.

Whether or not you believe that is up to you. Either way, piracy will always be there and it's still growing, DRM is just another reason out of thousands.
 

JC123

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Apr 10, 2008
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Prepare for giant reply:
camazotz said:
The problem I see with pirates is they are a bunch of worthless, whiney self-serving gits who feel they are entitled to other people's work and justify their actions on the slimmest of excuses.
And the problem I see with developers is that they feel entitled to my money without providing a quality product that:
A) Has a cohesive story, and quality gameplay to tie it together, rather than just being a piece of crap built on expectations raised by advertising, paying for positive reviews, or selling on a good previous product
B) Comes finished, not poorly made and requiring patches and work-arounds for the next 12 months
C) Is my own copy when I purchase it, and I am able to do what I would like with it, not that I am effectively "leasing" a product and can only install it on a certain number of computers, or must be online at all times to play it (even for offline single-player content), or whatever other hoops they've applied unnecessarily
D) Is charged at a reasonable price

slowpoke999 said:
Heres the steps to making gaming better in general:
Give instrusive Drm the boot>Give rip-off DLC the boot>Give subscription fees the boot>Give paying for in game items the boot...
DRM is, to me, the same as gun ownership. It makes you feel safe, but criminals just start to carry a gun as well. It might stop a few potential burglars, but the backlash (deaths from armed intruders, or accidents caused by having a gun in your house) isn't worth the gain. DRM might stop some pirates, but the others just work harder and still pirate your game, and you lose legit customers who are annoyed at the difficulty in accessing something they've bought.

Useless DLC must go (extra weapons, cars, etc). If I'm enjoying a product however, I'm more than willing to continue to pay for quality DLC (e.g. Borderlands), or an ongoing fee (e.g. WoW), so long as the product is of a good quality and continued to be supported in the case of subscription services.

epunk35 said:
The defense for pirates is "they wouldn't have bought that anyway", if I pirate a song that I really love, then I pirate the rest of the album the song is from, then never buy a record from that artist. They have lost a sale, because I liked their music a lot obviously, but piracy was free and easy. Had the option not been there I would have had to suck up $10 and buy the album. Same with the game if I wanna buy Metal Gear Solid but I pirate it instead and I play it. Sale lost because I don't need it since I've played it.
I find new music through reviews, checking out the artists featured on an album I already like, similar artists to the ones I already like, and the inspiration for the artists I like. It's $35 for a CD here (unless it's a top 20 artist). If I only like 1 out of every 10 albums I try, it's costing me $350 to find a decent CD. With downloading, it costs me nothing. Sure, Artist A has missed out on the profits from that one CD of his I might have bought, but because he's a horrible artist he'd never have seen another cent from me, and neither would anyone else that was linked to him in any way. I probably would've said "Oh, I hate " and never gone back to it. But because I was downloading music instead of buying it, I wasn't burnt by his crappy product. I was willing to give Artists B, C and D a go as well, and I now buy all their stuff on release date, go to their gigs, buy their shirts. I owned about 10 CDs before I began downloading. I now own around 500. I can easily go & spend $300 at a time on music. My music taste has expanded ridiculously in the past 10 years, purely because of pirating music.

Same with games. If I pirate it and love it, I buy it for my collection and replay value, and buy the sequel too.

Serioli said:
Also not sure the 'pirate my material and buy a t-shirt' model would work with a game due to the production costs compared to those involved in music.
I think it was an indie game developer, who would only be making $5-10 profit on his $20 game sale anyway. Agreed it's hard for bigger developers to make money that way, but they could try giving away an older game for free & gain some future sales. I'm sure the Free Portal deal going on right now with Steam is getting some definite sales for the sequel. Those who like both Portals might try HL2 & love it. They like HL2, they might give TF2 or L4D a try. Hell, since they're now on Steam and seeing the sales, games by whole other companies are probably getting a significant boost in sales.

dementedartist22 said:
Do I love games? Yes. Can I afford games? Not always. Does this mean I can steal? No. Yeah If I want a stereo and I can't get it, I could certainly steal one from best buy, (Assuming there was an easy, undetectable way to do so), and go home and enjoy it, for free. Does that make it right? Nope.
A better analogy: You want a 3DTV from best buy, but they have none on display. The salesperson tells you it's a good TV, a review you read in a magazine says it's a good TV, and the last Sony TV you bought was awesome. You spend your hard earned cash on a Sony 3DTV, get it home, turn it on, and it's a black and white 30cm CRT with some googly eyes glued on the front. Or it's a good normal TV, but the 3D won't work properly until they "patch" it in 3 months. Repeat process multiple times for multiple products from multiple suppliers. You'll soon learn not to buy anything unless you've tried it yourself, no?

Piracy is when your mate has just bought a brand new TV, so he lends you his old Panasonic 3DTV. You love the thing, and buy your own. Or maybe he never asks for it back, and so you just keep his without buying your own. But since you know Panasonic make good 3DTVs, you'll be willing to give their new stereo a try, even if you can't try it in-store.

Johnnyallstar said:
300 jobs were lost because one of the leading music media suppliers had to shut down a distribution center in my area. I was working for them at the time. It's not good, no matter how people justify it psychologically.
Ah, of course. That's entirely due to piracy. It has nothing to do with the fact that the music industry is increasing support of over-produced, under-talented, cookie-cutter artists rather than taking a chance on new styles. Please learn the difference between correlation and causation.

DaOysterboy said:
B) Why do the pirates cling to the argument that "We'll buy it if we like it." Can you show me any statistical evidence? "I bought such and such after pirating it" isn't good enough, because I have a friend who looked at my game collection and says "Oh you like such and such? You know I could get you anything you wanted for free." Gimme a damn number and not an anecdote.
In your ranting, you might have missed the difficulty in quantitatively measuring something as abstract as the increased number of purchases for future titles, or games in general, caused by piracy and it's effects (increased interest in games, positive word of mouth, etc). Unless you're sending a questionnaire with every game purchase AND expecting people to answer it honestly (which they probably won't, considering their answer would be admitting to an illegal act), you're never going to get accurate quantitative data.
 

JC123

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pseudo721 said:
As a game programmer myself, I gotta say it actually kinda does hurt a little bit. Moreso with smaller, indie developers. Imagine if you were an artist selling paintings on a street corner stand, and some guy walks up, commenting how much he loves one of the paintings. Then he snaps a picture of it with his camera and heads over to Kinkos.
I'll fix this example too:
Painters are selling their new paintings for a crazy amount, but no-one can see it before they buy it (it's covered in a black cloth); or they can only see an inch of the top left corner, or an entirely different painting that's smaller, but made using the same colours and canvas (it's a "demo"); or you can buy it and view it, but only when looking at it through special glasses, and someone has to check you're wearing the glasses every 20 minutes (also called "DRM").

Entirely legal users buy it blind, and just have to deal with the painting they're stuck with. Some like the painting and come back to buy another, some hate it and never buy another painting because they feel ripped off. Pirates stick their camera under the black cloth when no-one is looking & take a photo, printing it off at Kinko's. If it's a bad painting, the pirates have saved themselves a purchase they'd regret. They aren't as burnt thought because it's cost them barely anything, so they might buy another painting in future. If it's a good painting, they might go buy the real thing, or buy another painting from the same artist. Sure, some people will just photograph everything and never buy a real copy, but they never would've bought a real copy anyway. They're what's known as "cheap." You haven't lost anything on them. You might have even gained a little when a friend comes round, sees the painting and asks who made it.

You could get the same results as the pirates by showing a larger section (demo) of the painting for free, allowing people a brief view of the whole painting for free, or showing something else you've painted in the past. But most artists are too greedy in the short term - they want everyone's money now, but aren't thinking about return business.

If we've never seen your painting skills, it's a bit much to expect people to spend the money to buy an unknown quantity. On the other hand, if you're Picasso, you know people buy your paintings based on a trust your paintings are good, and you release a painting that is a stick figure made from smeared boogers purely for the profit, don't be surprised when people buy the Kinko's copy of your next painting, rather than taking the risk again.
 

CmdrGoob

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SultanP said:
Piracy isn't much of a threat, especially not compared to the new DRM schemes that Ubisoft and EA are using. Those do mean lost sales. I really, really want to play Settlers 7, but there's no way those dicks are getting my money when they screw paying customers like that.

I have pirated before, it has lead me to buy games that I wouldn't have bought, had I not tried them beforehand, so sometimes pirating leads to sales instead.
You realize of course that they're using those DRM schemes because of piracy, right? You do realize that part of the problem of piracy is that it practically forces publishers to think about restrictive DRM? If people were more honest, the games industry would not just be healthier, it would be more consumer friendly.
 

TBR

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me: 'oh hey it's V8 Supercars 3 for PC! I love that game for the PS2'
EB: 'yeah it's a pretty cool game'
me: 'I think the online racing would be cool'
EB: 'oh ok, that's right PS2 has no online'
me: 'oh, it doesn't say anything about compatibility'
EB: 'hmmm yes'
me: 'and what about online, is it still working?"
EB: 'dunno'
me: 'what about the starforce thing?'
EB: 'dunno LOL'
me: 'and can I play against other versions, like TOCA3 and DTM 3?'
EB: 'I DUNNO LOL'
me: 'k'

*pirate the game*

Yes, works with Win7 32
Yes, starforce drivers still ok
Yes, can play with friends from US, Canadia and Europe

*next day*

me: 'Salutations my good fellow. I have come for the purchase of a copy of a Personal Favourite, named 'V8 Supercars 3' for my personal computer. Do you have a copy, per chance?'
EB: '...indeed, old chap'
me: 'Tally Ho!'

Things Piracy is good for:

Finding out things about a game, will it work, functionality, etc. Oh and if I can't find a physical copy of it somewhere.

Things Piracy is bad for:

Small, independent developers. They don't have the ten billion 5 year old american 360 owners to fall back on, like a company such as Activision does.
 

SultanP

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CmdrGoob said:
SultanP said:
Piracy isn't much of a threat, especially not compared to the new DRM schemes that Ubisoft and EA are using. Those do mean lost sales. I really, really want to play Settlers 7, but there's no way those dicks are getting my money when they screw paying customers like that.

I have pirated before, it has lead me to buy games that I wouldn't have bought, had I not tried them beforehand, so sometimes pirating leads to sales instead.
You realize of course that they're using those DRM schemes because of piracy, right? You do realize that part of the problem of piracy is that it practically forces publishers to think about restrictive DRM? If people were more honest, the games industry would not just be healthier, it would be more consumer friendly.
Of course I realize that. However, there are many, many game companies that do not resort to such extreme forms of DRM, and they haven't gone bankrupt yet. There is a point where DRM starts encouraging piracy, because they become more of a hassle for the consumers than the pirates. EA and Ubisoft have reached that point.

2K games and Gearbox also reached that point with Borderlands, where the game was not ready for play after being installed, but you had to have the game contact a server that checked something, I think it was the release date, and then activated the game. That didn't work though, so I had to go and do it manually.
 

SimuLord

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The big threat from piracy isn't from the pirates. It's from companies like Ubisoft encouraging piracy with draconian, excessive DRM schemes.
 

Sephychu

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As previously stated, it's Pricay which evokes DRM, which then becomes its own vicious cycle.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

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I voted "Yeah, kinda," but it's only a threat because it gives the publishers an excuse to create ever more restrictive DRMs, and keep the prices high, because "obviously" sales aren't as high as they could be, solely due to pirates. I buy all of my games, but I've only bought one new game for myself in the last two years, and that one was $10 on sale. Everything else has either been a gift, bought used, or both. Games used to come way down in price after a year or so, to the point that AAA pc titles would be sold in a jewel case for $10, and AAA console games with a special label for $20. They don't do this anymore, and it's a real shame.

Beyond that, even budget titles have been creeping up in cost. The pricing of Fallout Trilogy is a good example of this. I remember, during the days when there were decent $10 games in walmart, Fallout 1 and 2 were bundled together for $10. Fallout Trilogy was the same thing over ten years later, with one extra game that few people cared about or wanted, and the asking price was double the old Dual Jewel releases.

Now, I wait for games to go on sale or to find them used, but I can understand the pirate mind set. Either way, the publishers are losing money because they price their games too high, and people are unwilling to pay it. If they gradually cut the price, I think they would find that higher profits come to those who can move more units, even if it is at a reduced price.

P.S.: There isn't really room to work this in to the post above, but I dislike digital distribution, because I want a physical product. I'll eventually wind up buying Valve's games over steam, but it'll be grudgingly, and only because with their games, the disc is a glorified coaster anyway.
 

omega 616

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epunk35 said:
The defense for pirates is "they wouldn't have bought that anyway", if I pirate a song that I really love, then I pirate the rest of the album the song is from, then never buy a record from that artist. They have lost a sale, because I liked their music a lot obviously, but piracy was free and easy. Had the option not been there I would have had to suck up $10 and buy the album. Same with the game if I wanna buy Metal Gear Solid but I pirate it instead and I play it. Sale lost because I don't need it since I've played it.
That argument, piracy is not a lost sale is such a lie. It's like stealing a tv to see if you like it then going to a different shop to buy it, if you do like it.

Pirates have no excuse or reason to pirate, no matter how you spin it your spinning it, your stealing, taking something (data or otherwise) without permission or paying is stealing.

If you can't afford something, you can't have it, simple as.

You can't blame it on devs making it harder for you to pirate, thats like blaming shops for having CCTV and electronic tags on products. Back in the 80's they couldn't stop you from recording off the radio, that doesn't make it ok.

I don't know why devs don't just bury all these sites owners in law suits, as far as I know they did with napster when it first started.

The only people you can blame for DRM is the pirates, thats why it's there to stop them. If everybody paid for the thing there would be no need for DRM, same goes for shops having CCTV and electronic tags, if nobody is stealing them theres no need for security.

To say "I am stealing it 'cos the devs are making it harder to steal", is a profoundly stupid argument, stop stealing it and it will be easier to get properly.

Of course pirecy will continue 'cos there are selfish, short sighted people in the world but hey ho. It's always the minorities runing it for the majority.
 

e2density

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Lately I think piracy has really affected me...
One of the key reasons they didn't release Super SFIV on PC was because of the mass piracy of the first game.

Eh, either way I'd just play it for a few hours and go back to GGPO...