Poll: Who IS buying the Xbox One?

[Peps]

Why do I have to provide evidence? I'm not the one trying to claim anything, you are. You're the one claiming used games are killing the industry and frankly, I find it astonishing you feel able to make a claim as severe as that without a single piece of actual evidence.

Everything you have provided is nothing more than conjecture and hearsay (in fact, one of the links you provided clearly stated that, financially, the used games market does not hurt the industry at all). Now I'm sorry, but is it wrong to expect that someone, somewhere would have actual data to back up this claim? Surely the indie developers you linked to must have data, otherwise how do they know used is killing the industry? Why haven't they provided this evidence to back up their claim?

One last question, if used is killing the industry and specifically smaller, indie devs (because let's be honest, that's what you've now changed your claim to after I provided that link about EA), why hasn't the Xbox One got more indie support? If it's such a shining oasis in a sea of terrible used games, why does the PS4 have just as much, if not more, indie support as the Xbox One has?

You're missing the point entirely. Sure, in small numbers, used games are fine, so long as the product is inferior to the new product. But because used games are being so aggressively pushed, and that they're pretty much indistinguishable from new product, then you have a problem, as the article states. That's the problem, and that's why it's devastating for companies who don't have the brand power of EA or other big massive AAA companies. You've been provided with plenty of statements from smaller developers, yet you're refuting them. Honestly, I think you would refute every piece of evidence you're given anyways, and claim that it was something other than used games that caused low sales of new product. Any evidence is subjective unless it's scientifically tested. If you want scientific evidence, that's never going to occur.

So instead, let's get back to basics. Give me business logic. Give me economic logic. Use economic theories to prove to me that blocking used games does not mean cheaper games. Prove to me that the price/demand theory and elasticity of demand theory are wrong. Prove to me that consumers are not rational, and will go for the more expensive option. Give me one logical business reason as to why I should trust you that I should publish my games to PS4 where there's "legal piracy". Logic. Give me it. I don't want to hear what massive corporations have to say. I want to hear fundamental economic logic coming from your own fingers. Why is the whole topic of economics wrong?

In regards to indies, we honestly don't know what indie support Microsoft has, and we don't know how to fairs against Sony's support for indie developers. Just because Sony announced around 10 indie developers publishing for their console, in comparison to the 2 or so that Microsoft have stated, it means nothing until we get the full details. All it means is that Sony decided to invest more time in making contracts with indie developers for E3 as opposed to Microsoft. As I said, there are several questions that developers such as myself would need answers to. If you're that confident that PS4 is more indie-friendly than the Xbox One, answer my questions. If you can't do that, you're statement about PS4 being more indie-friendly is utterly worthless. We can't make an accurate call on the topic until those details are revealed.

I'll repeat those questions for you as well:
- What fees are there to publish on the platform?
- Is there an SDK available for developing on the platform for the general public?
- Is there any tools we need to use to test our applications?
- How are the debugging tools?
- What percentage does Sony/Microsoft take from sales on their digital store?
- Can we publish disc-based games? If so, how?
- What does the digital store offer for marketing? Is there ratings?
- Are our games peer-reviewed by Sony/Microsoft, or by other game developers?
- What type of content are we not allowed to have in our games?
- Is there a size limit for our games? If so, how many GB?
- Can we take advantage of the PSN/XBL networks? What functionality will you offer us?
- Can we have OS-level integration? What APIs does your OS offer for indie developers?
- Can we use C++, or are we restricted to managed languages like C#?
- Can we directly access the GPU and write some optimisations?
- Do you have great documentation with well-written examples?

Last generation, Microsoft offered a decent service for indie developers, so hopefully they learned some lessons and fixed many of the issues. So answer those please if you're confident that the PS4 is more indie-friendly than Xbox One. None of that information is available publicly.

Side note, consumers want Steam to release a Steam-based console, yet when Microsoft do precisely that, all hell breaks loose...

 

[Colt47]

No real reason to buy the Xbox One. For one, they aren't going to have any support from the japanese studios. Second, the disc installation is pointless because if I want a game on the system hard drive I can just pay and download it off the PS network. Third, the PS4 has pretty much all the streaming services that I'd be using. Fourth, it doesn't require an internet connection or 24 hour check, so when I travel and get stuck in a place with a spotty connection I can still play the games I have on disc and on the hard drive. Fifth, I don't have to carry around a ridiculous eye toy that is always at least passively on.

If you travel and have a spotty connection it's ok because you only need to check in every 24 hours so i don't see the point, and from the game sharing thing i've seen it works better than ps4 because you can share games digitally which in my book is a huge plus.

You're making a rather troubling assumption that it can do the check on a spotty connection. Also as far as I've heard, the sharing of digital content is more like "giving" as it is a one way affair and a transfer of ownership. Also, I really don't see the advantage of the whole digital exchange system. I can give my friend the disk. He can give it back. This is not rocket science and doesn't require a digital solution.

Also, you're opening yourself up to having companies eventually do what they have done on the PC, which is pretty much the end of sharing and lending, period.

 

[Automaton539]

Prove to me that consumers are not rational, and will go for the more expensive option.

Yea, hi. Ok, it's been fun watching you two banter, but I can easily give one example for you right now. Using a game already cited earlier. Witchher 2. Ok, there are many people playing it pirated, but many people also buy the game so, if the consumer as a whole will always go for the cheaper option then how do you explain the people buying it new even though there is a seemingly readily available free/ cheap pirate version available for them to play?

 

[jim1398]

Wow, you really don't get it do you? You're so obsessed over trying to argue against the claim that used games are a good thing that you fail to realize that's a claim I never made. All I did was ask you to provide proof that the used market is killing the games industry, something that you have completely failed to do.

As I said before, your links are not proof, they are conjecture. Why should we take their word on this? Where is their proof? How do they know used games are killing the industry? You say we are never going to get scientific proof, yet the indies must have the figures. They have to have some figures backing that claim up, if they don't then the only logical assumption is that they simply saw that they had low sales and randomly decided to blame used games. Without figures, how can they possibly know that used games are to blame? The answer is that we can't. If the figures don't exist then we can't just simply assume that used games are killing the industry, the idea of doing that is ridiculous. You don't just get to make claims without evidence, that's not how it works.

As for the PS4, you're doing it again, arguing against a point that was never there. I never claimed the PS4 was indie friendly, I said it has indie support. Please tell me, why would any indie developer choose to bring their game to the PS4 if the used market was so bad for indie developers? Why would they be supporting the platform that isn't trying to fight the used market? Surely it would be logical for indies to flock to Microsoft, the company who is attempting to fight the market You claim is killing them.

BTW, I have yet to see anything to suggest that it's the actual used market that is an issue. Everything points towards the retailers being the biggest issue (the video from TB that you're praising so much? His biggest issues are with the retailers, not the used market). Thought I'd just point that out since it's pretty ironic, considering the ones who stand to gain significantly from the Xbox One's used DRM are companies like Gamestop. Might be something to take into consideration there.

 

[Evil Smurf]

I'm going to stick my my PC, I will however buy the controller.

 

[Peps]

Prove to me that consumers are not rational, and will go for the more expensive option.

Yea, hi. Ok, it's been fun watching you two banter, but I can easily give one example for you right now. Using a game already cited earlier. Witchher 2. Ok, there are many people playing it pirated, but many people also buy the game so, if the consumer as a whole will always go for the cheaper option then how do you explain the people buying it new even though there is a seemingly readily available free/ cheap pirate version available for them to play?

People aren't usually aware of all of their options, or there are some other circumstances that affect a small subset of people. For example, some people might have a terrible internet connection, and might have no choice but to buy in store. Very simple really. But you're trying to argue against fundamental economic theories here, and you're trying to state that they are wrong. When circumstances are identical, and consumers are aware of their options,

Wow, you really don't get it do you? You're so obsessed over trying to argue against the claim that used games are a good thing that you fail to realize that's a claim I never made. All I did was ask you to provide proof that the used market is killing the games industry, something that you have completely failed to do.

As I said before, your links are not proof, they are conjecture. Why should we take their word on this? Where is their proof? How do they know used games are killing the industry? You say we are never going to get scientific proof, yet the indies must have the figures. They have to have some figures backing that claim up, if they don't then the only logical assumption is that they simply saw that they had low sales and randomly decided to blame used games. Without figures, how can they possibly know that used games are to blame? The answer is that we can't. If the figures don't exist then we can't just simply assume that used games are killing the industry, the idea of doing that is ridiculous. You don't just get to make claims without evidence, that's not how it works.

As for the PS4, you're doing it again, arguing against a point that was never there. I never claimed the PS4 was indie friendly, I said it has indie support. Please tell me, why would any indie developer choose to bring their game to the PS4 if the used market was so bad for indie developers? Why would they be supporting the platform that isn't trying to fight the used market? Surely it would be logical for indies to flock to Microsoft, the company who is attempting to fight the market You claim is killing them.

BTW, I have yet to see anything to suggest that it's the actual used market that is an issue. Everything points towards the retailers being the biggest issue (the video from TB that you're praising so much? His biggest issues are with the retailers, not the used market). Thought I'd just point that out since it's pretty ironic, considering the ones who stand to gain significantly from the Xbox One's used DRM are companies like Gamestop. Might be something to take into consideration there.

You seem like the type of person who would absolutely deny everything and refuse to consider other possibilities. Seems very narrow-minded if you ask me. Either accept the fact that developers are claiming, using their own private research that used games are killing them, or don't. They wouldn't be making claims that they didn't do some research into, as there's simply nothing to gain from lying.

But again, let's get this back to economic basics. How on earth are used games beneficial to developers? Why would they not reduce their prices when used games are blocked? Why would a consumer buy a new product over the used product? You have failed to answer these basic business questions.

We don't know if Sony is funding those indie developers. We don't know if Microsoft is funding the indie developers on their platform. Clearly there's some sort of deal going on, and of course they'll publish to a console where they have a deal. Pretty simple really. Once Microsoft start proving that the Steam model is far superior than the traditional console model, that's when you'll start seeing developers flocking. It's something that's long-term, not short-term, and not before the console is released. Us average developers know nothing still about what they're offering, so how can we flock to something that we know nothing about?

I have no problem with GameStop making money. My problem is when they're starting to drain money from developers. Microsoft are taking everyone into account when it came to designing the Xbox One, including the retailer, and that's a great thing: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/06/microsoft-defends-the-xbox-ones-licensing-used-game-policies/ The problem is, you're not going to see these benefits until the console is released. So instead, in the meantime, be more open-minded about what developers are currently thinking about the console, and be more open-minded about prices. Don't assume the future situation will be the same as the current situation. It won't be. I can see Microsoft completely revolutionising the console market with this new strategy. People usually hate change at first, but then they start to realise the benefits.

Use logic, instead of being picky about "evidence".

 

[jim1398]

Picky about evidence? I'm sorry, but when it relates to something as serious as the claim that used games are KILLING the industry, why in the hell shouldn't we expect people to be able to provide evidence? I can't believe that anyone would be simply willing to take someone's word over such a massively important issue.

Again, if they have done the research, why aren't they showing it to us? What do they have to gain from hiding it?

Also, once again you're expecting me to explain and provide evidence for a claim I have never made. I have never said used games are beneficial to developers, so why are you demanding I explain why they are?.

You are constantly bringing strawmen into this. This discussion is extremely simple, you claimed used games are killing the industry, I asked you to prove it. That's it. Either you provide proof that isn't just conjecture or you admit that there is no actual evidence.

Until you do one or the other, I see no point in continuing this circular discussion.

 

[Strain42]

I will not be purchasing an Xbox One. For starters, all the typical reasons that everyone knows about and I won't bother repeating, but really because...well...I don't love my 360 anymore.

I own all 3 consoles from last Gen, and for a very long time whenever I saw a PS3 vs. 360 argument, I was usually the one who really did look at both sides of the argument and think they came out to about the same. Not so much anymore, I'm more of a playstation guy at this point. The PS3 releases a lot more exclusive titles that I want. A large chunk of formerly 360 exclusives became available on the PS3 (such as the Bioshock and Saints Row series, though I believe the latter one's first game is still 360 exclusive)

Honestly, the only 360 games I even still own are Fables 2 and 3, Saints Rows 1-3, and Portal 2...that's it. I haven't bought a 360 game in years. Though oddly enough this year is releasing a few 360 titles I wanna pick up such as SR4, Fable Anniversary, and Garden Warfare.

So yeah. I personally don't like the XBO, nothing about it appeals to me, but nothing against those that want to buy it.

Also with the 360 you have to be an Xbox Live member just to use Netflix. I get that for free on my other consoles. I'm not paying an extra 15 bucks a month solely for Netflix.

 

[Automaton539]

Prove to me that consumers are not rational, and will go for the more expensive option.

Yea, hi. Ok, it's been fun watching you two banter, but I can easily give one example for you right now. Using a game already cited earlier. Witchher 2. Ok, there are many people playing it pirated, but many people also buy the game so, if the consumer as a whole will always go for the cheaper option then how do you explain the people buying it new even though there is a seemingly readily available free/ cheap pirate version available for them to play?

People aren't usually aware of all of their options, or there are some other circumstances that affect a small subset of people. For example, some people might have a terrible internet connection, and might have no choice but to buy in store. Very simple really. But you're trying to argue against fundamental economic theories here, and you're trying to state that they are wrong. When circumstances are identical, and consumers are aware of their options,

Um... Since when did I try stating they're wrong? I simply gave you a valid example to something you suggested. And as for not aware of their options, I was aware. I knew it was being pirated. If I had chosen to search for it I could have easily gotten my hands on a free pirated copy but no, I bought it, new. Because I chose to. As did all of my friends who play it. As does at least one of my friends who has never even bought preowned when the option was available. So clearly no, the consumer as a whole does Not always go for the cheapest option. Yes, lots do, I often buy mine preowned, but even when the option is available I don't pirate. Thus meaning that even being aware of all my options I for one do not always go for the cheapest option, and being part of the being that is the general consumer you cannot tar everyone with the same brush. Not everyone goes for the cheapest option thus "the consumer" cannot do anything as a whole. Part of the consumer basis can, but not as a whole.

I do believe I am done with this argument though. It is useless arguing with someone who uses broad generalities with such conviction.

 

[mohit9206]

Holy 79 people are considering buying Xbox One !!?? Really Sad.

 

[SecondPrize]

I absolutely won't be since I just can't condone the way they are pandering to publishers at the cost of the consumer. From the UK, BTW.

Also, I'm a little concerned to see people saying the DRM and online checks don't bother them. Now while I wouldn't for a second presume I have the right to tell you what you should and shouldn't buy, I would ask that you carefully consider what it could mean in the long term. Sure, you may not think the Xbox One restrictions are a big deal, you buy all of your games new and you'll be connected to the internet anyway so what does it matter? Well right now, it doesn't matter (to you at least), but it sends the message that we're willing to put up with losing our rights as consumers, that we're ok giving the publishers more control over games after we have bought them from them. If the Xbox is a success, then you can be certain that the generation of consoles after this one will impose even more restrictions because the publishers aren't going to be willing to stop until they have complete control over what we buy. If you don't see a problem with that at all, then more power to you, but that sounds like a dark and terrible future to me and it's one I hope I never see.

I've been using Steam for 7.5 years, Xbox1 does nothing new that Steam hasn't been doing for ages.

Why don't you try comparing the Xbox to it's actual major competitor in the console market? PS4 won't be doing what the Xbox and Steam do. Why would I buy a console that doesn't have one of the major advantages console gaming has over PC gaming when it's competitor keeps that advantage?

 

[DrunkOnEstus]

I'll pick it up for D4 and any other Lost Odyssey type exclusives WHEN and IF someone totally breaks the DRM in it. This isn't only my decision, my wife has told me that if I buy one the way it is out of the box she doesn't want it in the house, and I'd have to hook it up in the garage. Gaming in my garage won't be too comfortable, especially when adding on Swery's screwy controls and uncomfortable animations.

Edit: I just realized that I don't have an ethernet cable long enough to reach the garage, and I can't pick up Wifi in there. So it wouldn't work anyway. Holy shit what a priceless revelation.

 

[GAunderrated]

Yep, Day one.

Really looking forward to titanfall, (which you'd have to be bias'd to think is not awesome)among other. Also looking forward to the awesome sharing feature.

The irony of what I bolded was quite entertaining. Thank you for reminding me what kind of market the Xbox one is banking on.

 

[80sboy]

Okay, enough with these damn threads. With all the negative backlash, a thread like this does nothing but polarize people. Right now, fuck Xbone...done and done! If you still want to get it cuz of game A or game B...whatever!

But until Microsoft has a change of heart (forgot they have no hearts) thought, they don't deserve our attention. And for those of us that that are royally pissed off, we should be ignoring them until they do.

 

[Terramax]

I don't know if I count. Personally, I'm waiting for someone to tear open the case and find a way to shut off that damn mic/camera and still have it work. If it can be done safely, I'll purchase it for some of the titles.

Similarly, if there is a way to hack it so that it can play offline, and turn off the cam and mic, I'd get it for Crimson Dragon, later down the line.

 

[Automaton539]

Yep, Day one.

Really looking forward to titanfall, (which you'd have to be bias'd to think is not awesome)among other. Also looking forward to the awesome sharing feature.

The irony of what I bolded was quite entertaining. Thank you for reminding me what kind of market the Xbox one is banking on.

really? what about titan fall looked bad?

Nothing at all, just that (assuming you're serious and not trolling, of course) you can also find a gameplay of it on pc

Here

 

[GAunderrated]

Yep, Day one.

Really looking forward to titanfall, (which you'd have to be bias'd to think is not awesome)among other. Also looking forward to the awesome sharing feature.

The irony of what I bolded was quite entertaining. Thank you for reminding me what kind of market the Xbox one is banking on.

really? what about titan fall looked bad?

I am dumbfounded how you still don't get the point..... oh well here we go. It is ironic because you say someone has to be biased if they do not like the game you like which inherently shows your bias.

Personally I think titanfall like another shooter set in sci-fi with mechs added. Nothing about that is revolutionary or makes me want to jump out and declare its awesome before I even play the game.

That doesn't mean I am biased against the game, just means that I don't get overhyped on marketing crap. I reserve my final judgement until I play the game. It very well could be a fantastic game, but no one knows for sure right now.

So saying that anyone who doesn't agree with you is biased shows your bias. Hope that clears it up for you

 

[N3squ1ck]

No, not getting it. All the TV stuff won't work in Germany anyways, and the 100 Euros price difference are also a really good argument for the PS4