Poll: Would you date a transgendered person?

Helmholtz Watson

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Natasha_LB said:
westcoast1313 said:
MartianWarMachine said:
westcoast1313 said:
Okay, question, what the hell is a cisman and a ciswoman?
A cisman is a man who was born with a male body, and a ciswoman is a woman who was born with a female body.
Ahhh okay, so its a "normal" person. Then whats with the cis part?

Anyways on topic now i anwsered no as i find it weird. Cant really put a finger on the exact reason i feel that way, i just do.
No, it does not mean a "Normal" person, I'll let you off this once, because I can see how easy it must be for people to make that mistake, but it implies that we are not "normal" and that's quite offensive. Trans people are as normal as cis people are. Gender identity disorder is a disease... suffering from a disease does not make a person not normal, would you say that someone with cancer was not normal?

This is why we have the term "cis", it's essentially a shorthand way of saying "not trans", without having to fall back on terms like normal. The cis part once again comes from latin, it means "On the same side as" so cissexual would mean to be on the same side as your birth sex. IE, you don't need to travel across the plain of sex, because you're already on the correct side.
um we are normal though. Be offended all you want.
 

Batou667

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nekoali said:
So take of that what you will. But it's not about shoe shopping and crying at romantic movies. It's about how I feel, and what my needs are. And I can tell you... despite having 'been' one technically, how men think and why they think what they do is a complete mystery to me. I just don't understand them.
Just out of interest - we live in a fairly liberal society, or at least a society where it's possible to find liberal people to live amongst. You also mentioned that transgender people don't pursue surgery in order to match up with society's vision of "butch" or "effeminate". With that being the case, how does being a transwoman offer anything more than being an effeminate, homosexual man?
 

D Moness

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Batou667 said:
With that being the case, how does being a transwoman offer anything more than being an effeminate, homosexual man?
Not all transwomen like guys. Just like not all ciswomen like guys.
 

nekoali

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Batou667 said:
nekoali said:
So take of that what you will. But it's not about shoe shopping and crying at romantic movies. It's about how I feel, and what my needs are. And I can tell you... despite having 'been' one technically, how men think and why they think what they do is a complete mystery to me. I just don't understand them.
Just out of interest - we live in a fairly liberal society, or at least a society where it's possible to find liberal people to live amongst. You also mentioned that transgender people don't pursue surgery in order to match up with society's vision of "butch" or "effeminate". With that being the case, how does being a transwoman offer anything more than being an effeminate, homosexual man?
Well, I don't mean to be flippant but every person, gay, straight, masculine or feminine, offers the same thing: themselves. We are more than just a bunch of labels and descriptions, each person is an individual.

Your question is both very broad and specific, so I'll clear a few things up first... Being a transwoman does not automatically make you feminine. That is some combination of nature and nurture that nobody has explained for humans yet, so I'm not qualified certainly to explain how people get their personalities.

A transwoman who is attracted to men is not a gay man. A fair number of us go through a stage in life where they think of themselves as gay men. They know of their attraction before men before they realize they are transgender, or at least openly admit it. There is still more stigma to being trans than there is to being gay. I myself wouldn't even admit my attraction to men until I could admit that I was transgender though, so I never went through that stage of self identification. For me I thought of myself as a straight male, then briefly a lesbian female, then bisexual female and now pansexual female.

The difference though is a trans woman is a woman, and a gay man is a man... One case where the truth is simple, regardless of biology. Some people are simply not attracted to men. Their personality traits aren't the same. Even in the cases of effeminate men, they are still men. So someone who has no interest in men would not be interested in an effeminate man, but may be attracted to a trans women, even without surgery.

My boyfriend is a prime example of this. He has been friends with people of the LGBT community for his entire life. He is cisgender and as straight as they come. He has hung out with and lived with people of the entire LGBT spectrum but doesn't judge people by their biology. To him, I am a woman, period. He's had opportunities to be with gay men and drag queens, but he has no interest in them. Because they are men, and he is straight.

There are more than a few cases I wish some adorably cute and wonderful gay men that I knew would be attracted to me. But they want to be with another man... which is something I am not. In the end, they would find me lacking in certain aspects. Physically I may have the equipment they like to see on a partner, but I have no desire to use it. And after years on hormones, I really don't have the ability to use it either...

So.. what does a trans woman have to offer more than an effeminate gay man? Both nothing, and everything. People are attracted to who they are... I don't have 'more' to offer than any other person other than what I am. If someone is attracted to what I am, then it is me they want, not something else.
 

nekoali

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Volf99 said:
Natasha_LB said:
westcoast1313 said:
MartianWarMachine said:
westcoast1313 said:
Okay, question, what the hell is a cisman and a ciswoman?
A cisman is a man who was born with a male body, and a ciswoman is a woman who was born with a female body.
Ahhh okay, so its a "normal" person. Then whats with the cis part?

Anyways on topic now i anwsered no as i find it weird. Cant really put a finger on the exact reason i feel that way, i just do.
No, it does not mean a "Normal" person, I'll let you off this once, because I can see how easy it must be for people to make that mistake, but it implies that we are not "normal" and that's quite offensive. Trans people are as normal as cis people are. Gender identity disorder is a disease... suffering from a disease does not make a person not normal, would you say that someone with cancer was not normal?

This is why we have the term "cis", it's essentially a shorthand way of saying "not trans", without having to fall back on terms like normal. The cis part once again comes from latin, it means "On the same side as" so cissexual would mean to be on the same side as your birth sex. IE, you don't need to travel across the plain of sex, because you're already on the correct side.
um we are normal though. Be offended all you want.
Transgender people are normal as well. Gay people are normal. Cisgender people and straight people are normal. We are all as we were born. That is what normal is. The phrase 'normal' is often used in places where 'in the majority' should be used. Far more people are cisgender than transgender. That doesn't make them any more normal, it just puts them in the majority. If you had a town of 10,000 white people and 200 black people, the white people wouldn't be 'normal' and everyone else 'not normal'. Be they white or black, being so is normal for them.

Calling someone normal when you mean 'not like me, who is in the majority' is insulting because, whether you mean it to be an insult or not, you are placing people who aren't you in a separate category, of which you are superior to. This is an example of cisgender/majority privilege at work. You are devaluing other people for no good reason.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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nekoali said:
Volf99 said:
Natasha_LB said:
westcoast1313 said:
MartianWarMachine said:
westcoast1313 said:
Okay, question, what the hell is a cisman and a ciswoman?
A cisman is a man who was born with a male body, and a ciswoman is a woman who was born with a female body.
Ahhh okay, so its a "normal" person. Then whats with the cis part?

Anyways on topic now i anwsered no as i find it weird. Cant really put a finger on the exact reason i feel that way, i just do.
No, it does not mean a "Normal" person, I'll let you off this once, because I can see how easy it must be for people to make that mistake, but it implies that we are not "normal" and that's quite offensive. Trans people are as normal as cis people are. Gender identity disorder is a disease... suffering from a disease does not make a person not normal, would you say that someone with cancer was not normal?

This is why we have the term "cis", it's essentially a shorthand way of saying "not trans", without having to fall back on terms like normal. The cis part once again comes from latin, it means "On the same side as" so cissexual would mean to be on the same side as your birth sex. IE, you don't need to travel across the plain of sex, because you're already on the correct side.
um we are normal though. Be offended all you want.
Transgender people are normal as well. Gay people are normal. Cisgender people and straight people are normal. We are all as we were born. That is what normal is. The phrase 'normal' is often used in places where 'in the majority' should be used. Far more people are cisgender than transgender. That doesn't make them any more normal, it just puts them in the majority. If you had a town of 10,000 white people and 200 black people, the white people wouldn't be 'normal' and everyone else 'not normal'. Be they white or black, being so is normal for them.

Calling someone normal when you mean 'not like me, who is in the majority' is insulting because, whether you mean it to be an insult or not, you are placing people who aren't you in a separate category, of which you are superior to. This is an example of cisgender/majority privilege at work. You are devaluing other people for no good reason.
You can try to twist what I mean all you want, but it doesn't change what I mean when I say normal. For example, I have ADD, which is something that is not normal to have. I'm kidding myself if I think that I'm just like everybody else, because lets face it, my condition is not normal.
 

nekoali

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And most people using some sort of privilege don't even realize they are using it...

No, whites are superior to blacks. That's Normal. As God intended.

Men are superior to women. That's Normal. As God intended.

Straight people are superior to gay people. That's Normal. As God intended.

Cisgender people are superior to transgender people... I think you get the idea by now.

NOBODY in the world is 'just like everybody else'. Yes, if you have ADD, you are just like everyone else. Plus you have ADD. Some people do, some people don't. That doesn't make you 'less normal'. If all it takes is one difference, one 'flaw' to make someone 'not normal' then by definition nobody is normal, because nobody is 'perfect'.
 

TheSnarkKnight

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Slayer_2 said:
How can you identify as female when our society's ideas of what is feminine changes so rapidly (compared to the speed evolution moves at)? You think female brains are wired from birth to love high heels, gossip, makeup, skirts, and all that crap? Of course not, they are targeted from a young age post-birth to think of these things as feminine. As a male, YOU are not the target, instead you are told to love guns, cars, fighting/violent sports, whatever. You want me to seriously believe you come out of the womb thinking "Oh, I can't wait to go shoe shopping"? That makes no sense, the newborn doesn't understand money, fashion, whatever. You're born with instincts (such as sexuality, basic needs, etc). These develop, and the rest springs up according to your lifestyle and the impression society makes on you. The difference between homosexuals and transsexuals is so vast it's like comparing apples to stones. One is born that way and is happy with their body. The other is born and comes to the conclusion they are another gender, then (usually) tries to change this. Unfortunately, the best they can do is a half-ass kind of thing.
Wow... this is so ignorant and transphobic, I don't know where to start. I mean, I know accusations of bigotry are thrown around a lot when discussing race, sexuality and gender, but some people really merit these accussations. I'm surprised more people don't see it.

Seriously, if you think the only part of belonging to a gender is these broad stereotypes, you are VERY mistaken. You also said earlier that you wouldn't mind waking up in a female body. Well, I don't think you've thought that all the way through. What about when everyone starts treating you as female and you are expected to conform to the thousands of tiny social constraints that females have to? Again, your first instinct will likely be to think of the broad gender roles, the kinda sexist crap you hear about, but I assure you that there are many you probably wouldn't even be able to conceive of.

Also, your argument for why gender isn't this innate thing could easily be compared to people's arguments that sexuality isn't an innate thing. "What, you think people just come out the womb craving cock or pussy?", "How can one identify as gay or lesbian, when society's perception of gay or lesbian is always changing?", "You are born with the most basic instincts; sexuality and lifestyle choice are effected by how you're raised". It's so stupid, comes from such a "common sense" approach, trying to simplify things down, not letting those annoying things called facts get in the way.

Also, the nature vs. nurture thing is kinda pointless as, either way, the gender they identify as doesn't match their physical sex. I mean, if race or sexuality were governed by nurture, would that make racism and homophobia acceptable? Or, come to think of it, are you trying to imply that transpeople are simply deluded? In that case, don't you think those that conduct the psychological evaluation needed before transpeople can transition would notice? Don't you think dealing with it would be a lot simpler if it wasn't a very deep, very fundamenal thing?

You, again, seem to make out that transpeople identify as the opposite gender to the sex they're born into is some kinda whim, some kinda conscious decision. It's no more a choice than being gay is, or being straight is, or being cisgendered is. You come across as staggeringly ignorant of everything about sex and gender, like the kind of person that has views on this stuff, but has not looked into it much. Once again, these views and conclusions seem based on the rather lazy "common sense" approach.

So I ask you, how should transpeople go about the difference between their gender and sex? I'm curious to know what you think they should do. Should they suck it up and not try to live as their gender, live as their birth sex instead? How should we treat transpeople if not how they wish to be treated? Seriously, I've got no idea what you're getting at here.
 

kurupt87

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Above poster shouldn't have received a warning for that.

He was abrupt, sure. But he's absolutely right.

Not being normal is not an insult.

Trying to redefine a word because you have your own definition wrong is your fault, not that of others.
 

nekoali

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In response, I would like to requote the entirely of my last message. The problem Matthew, is where you say 'The average male person does not think they are a woman.' You are correct. I am not a male. I am a woman. A transgender woman. So to be a woman is natural to me. You are wanting to assign traits to me that do not apply to me, and then saying I am not normal for living up to those traits. Male and Female is more then biology or genetics.

The term 'normal' in this context is offensive because people take offense to it. That is the definition of what is offensive, that people are offended by it. Not that it can mean something else. Not that it was intended to be offensive. But because people take offense when it is said to them.

Using normal in this manner directly implies that as trans people we are not normal, that we are 'something else'. Identifying people as 'something else' is the first step towards bigotry and hatred. You are casting those people in an 'us vs them' light and it is human nature to think of anything that is 'them' as inferior.

If you explain the origins of an offensive term enough, anyone can make it 'not offensive' by explaining it's origin and why it shouldn't be taken personally because at one point it was used in a different way. This is simply not true. Something is offensive, as I said, because someone was offended. Yes that means anything can and at one point probably was offensive to someone else.

I've certainly said things in the past that offended someone unintentionally. The proper adult, human thing to do when that happens is to apologize for causing someone unintended offense. Turning around and trying to explain why someone shouldn't be offended so you don't come off as a bad person is a childish response. No amount of explanation or rationalization will change the fact that your words at that time hurt someone.
 
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I have no idea. I mean, I know not a single transgendered person in real life, so I can't say yes or no definitively.
 

chiefohara

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nekoali said:
I multitask very well. In fact, I can't stand doing just one thing most of the time, I have to be doing a couple of things as the same time or my attention wanders. Be it work and web surfing, watching a movie and knitting or something else.

I actually have very good peripheral vision. It seems to be better than the average person's. What that means, I have no idea.
Cool, Multitasking is a very female thing so it makes sense that you can do it very well.

As for peripheral vision, basically women have very good peripheral vision, and men have very good tunnel vision. Men needed the tunnel vision for hunting and stalking prey and women developed peripheral vision regards keeping an eye out for danger and essentially multitasking with a hundred things at once (so i've been told, im open to correction on this)

Thanks for answering my question.
 

KelsieKatt

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chiefohara said:
As for peripheral vision, basically women have very good peripheral vision, and men have very good tunnel vision. Men needed the tunnel vision for hunting and stalking prey and women developed peripheral vision regards keeping an eye out for danger and essentially multitasking with a hundred things at once (so i've been told, im open to correction on this)
Speaking of which, I could be wrong as I'm not a scientist, but as far as I know men and women's eyes are physically the same. I think the whole tunnel vision vs peripheral thing is more of a psychological thing in how our brains interpret what we're seeing.

This also seems to be reflected in what I've heard/seen in trans people I've known as well. Most of them at least.. but I'd be lying if I said I didn't have my doubts about some people. Although, granted, not every person in the world necessarily applies to these sorts of stereotypes anyway.

As it is, my ex-boyfriend is excessively antsy and likes to do multiple things simultaneously because he apparently gets bored otherwise. Which I find rather frustrating as when I watch or play something, I like to enjoy things in a very cinematic and immersive way with large screens, cranked up surround sound and so on. And it's particularly annoying because I'm unable to focus on specific things at a time and tune out others, I just hear/see ALL OF IT at once, so if there's other things going on in the background, both of them just completely drown each other out and I get nothing from either.
 

nekoali

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Hmm.. Interesting. I have the same sort of problem KelsieKatt, especially with sound. If there are several sources of sound (radio, television, computer, people talking etc) I have a hard time separating and focusing on just one a lot of time. People making comments during a movie is not hard.. But say, trying to have a conversation in a car with the radio going I have a hard time making out what the other person is saying. Even loud white noise gives me trouble.
 

omega 616

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Wait, post op? So if a male got the "FE", had a chap hacked off and the boobs installed would I date her? Hmmmm

I think it would have to be a "has to happen" kind of situations, It's like trying to describe how you are going to feel exactly before having somebody close to you die. I thought I was going to be a wreck, after 3 deaths I realize that assumption was wrong.

I would have to be in a situation where a trans person asked me out or I asked a trans person out before I could say one way or the other.
 

BloatedGuppy

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nekoali said:
Hmm.. Interesting. I have the same sort of problem KelsieKatt, especially with sound. If there are several sources of sound (radio, television, computer, people talking etc) I have a hard time separating and focusing on just one a lot of time. People making comments during a movie is not hard.. But say, trying to have a conversation in a car with the radio going I have a hard time making out what the other person is saying. Even loud white noise gives me trouble.
Wouldn't this be true for everyone?

My understanding is that our brain functions kind of like an internet connection. It can only take in so much data at a time. Data from one source dilutes our ability to concentrate on data from another source.

The psychological state of "flow" is supposed to represent those times when you are completely focused on the task at hand with absolutely no distractions of any kind, be they stress, fatigue, or someone nattering in your ear.

I digress, as I am veering off topic.
 

nekoali

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Well I have more trouble focusing than other people seem to. Most can follow a conversation in a crowd, or listen to music and talk at the same time. I just can't separate those sources of sounds, and it all gets jumbled for me.

Interestingly enough, I have no problem following and participating in several text conversations on internet chat though.
 

KelsieKatt

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BloatedGuppy said:
nekoali said:
Hmm.. Interesting. I have the same sort of problem KelsieKatt, especially with sound. If there are several sources of sound (radio, television, computer, people talking etc) I have a hard time separating and focusing on just one a lot of time. People making comments during a movie is not hard.. But say, trying to have a conversation in a car with the radio going I have a hard time making out what the other person is saying. Even loud white noise gives me trouble.
Wouldn't this be true for everyone?

My understanding is that our brain functions kind of like an internet connection. It can only take in so much data at a time. Data from one source dilutes our ability to concentrate on data from another source.

The psychological state of "flow" is supposed to represent those times when you are completely focused on the task at hand with absolutely no distractions of any kind, be they stress, fatigue, or someone nattering in your ear.

I digress, as I am veering off topic.
Well, of course there's going to be limitations, but at the same time I've been in many scenarios where other people I've been around have tuned something else out that was going on in the background while watching a TV show or something, and I had to keep asking them what was going on because I couldn't pick up on it properly because all I was getting was an incoherent mess going into my brain.

Also, I've noticed that a lot of guys I know I have to try to get their attention several times in a row because they're focused on something else and they had no idea I was even waving at them or speaking. They were just kind of phased out in their own little world.

(Not implying all guys are like the above scenario, just this is what happens frequently in my experience.)
 

Slayer_2

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TheSnarkKnight said:
Slayer_2 said:
How can you identify as female when our society's ideas of what is feminine changes so rapidly (compared to the speed evolution moves at)? You think female brains are wired from birth to love high heels, gossip, makeup, skirts, and all that crap? Of course not, they are targeted from a young age post-birth to think of these things as feminine. As a male, YOU are not the target, instead you are told to love guns, cars, fighting/violent sports, whatever. You want me to seriously believe you come out of the womb thinking "Oh, I can't wait to go shoe shopping"? That makes no sense, the newborn doesn't understand money, fashion, whatever. You're born with instincts (such as sexuality, basic needs, etc). These develop, and the rest springs up according to your lifestyle and the impression society makes on you. The difference between homosexuals and transsexuals is so vast it's like comparing apples to stones. One is born that way and is happy with their body. The other is born and comes to the conclusion they are another gender, then (usually) tries to change this. Unfortunately, the best they can do is a half-ass kind of thing.
Wow... this is so ignorant and transphobic, I don't know where to start. I mean, I know accusations of bigotry are thrown around a lot when discussing race, sexuality and gender, but some people really merit these accussations. I'm surprised more people don't see it.

Seriously, if you think the only part of belonging to a gender is these broad stereotypes, you are VERY mistaken. You also said earlier that you wouldn't mind waking up in a female body. Well, I don't think you've thought that all the way through. What about when everyone starts treating you as female and you are expected to conform to the thousands of tiny social constraints that females have to? Again, your first instinct will likely be to think of the broad gender roles, the kinda sexist crap you hear about, but I assure you that there are many you probably wouldn't even be able to conceive of.

Also, your argument for why gender isn't this innate thing could easily be compared to people's arguments that sexuality isn't an innate thing. "What, you think people just come out the womb craving cock or pussy?", "How can one identify as gay or lesbian, when society's perception of gay or lesbian is always changing?", "You are born with the most basic instincts; sexuality and lifestyle choice are effected by how you're raised". It's so stupid, comes from such a "common sense" approach, trying to simplify things down, not letting those annoying things called facts get in the way.

Also, the nature vs. nurture thing is kinda pointless as, either way, the gender they identify as doesn't match their physical sex. I mean, if race or sexuality were governed by nurture, would that make racism and homophobia acceptable? Or, come to think of it, are you trying to imply that transpeople are simply deluded? In that case, don't you think those that conduct the psychological evaluation needed before transpeople can transition would notice? Don't you think dealing with it would be a lot simpler if it wasn't a very deep, very fundamenal thing?

You, again, seem to make out that transpeople identify as the opposite gender to the sex they're born into is some kinda whim, some kinda conscious decision. It's no more a choice than being gay is, or being straight is, or being cisgendered is. You come across as staggeringly ignorant of everything about sex and gender, like the kind of person that has views on this stuff, but has not looked into it much. Once again, these views and conclusions seem based on the rather lazy "common sense" approach.

So I ask you, how should transpeople go about the difference between their gender and sex? I'm curious to know what you think they should do. Should they suck it up and not try to live as their gender, live as their birth sex instead? How should we treat transpeople if not how they wish to be treated? Seriously, I've got no idea what you're getting at here.
I'm pretty sure I could handle the "thousands of tiny social constraints" that females have to deal with. Fair trade for the thousands of male related ones I'd drop. Not saying it'd be a split-second adjustment, but after the whole "oh shit" thing, I'd be good. Life is too short and precious to spend time moping over what you can't change. Accept what you have and work with it, cut with the grain. I see transpeople as generally trying to cut against the grain, and just making a mess of things.

I have no idea what trans-people think like, or if it's a delusion/fantasy thing. It wouldn't surprise me, as I doubt such conditions could be so commonly caused by a pre-birth brain malfunction (and unlike homosexuality, I would term "feeling like you're in the wrong body" as a malfunction). I have no beef with you if you feel the need to undergo surgery to feel good about yourself, but don't expect me to want to date or have sex with you. It's really not a lot to ask, I'm not hating, I'm just not interested in people who are all about physical appearances, whether it's a dumb bimbo or a MTF transsexual. Don't get up in arms about not being viewed as a "true female", because you aren't. Sorry, life is hard.