Yopaz said:
Razada said:
Yopaz said:
Silvianoshei said:
Reading this thread is amazing. A lot of people don't realize how much you change after having a child, If you are truly worried enough about the child's well being that you don't think you have the maturity to raise it, you'll surprise yourself at how much you grow up when you have one. If you liken a child to a parasite, then maybe you should hold off...
Believe me, there are too many out there who would not want an abortion who should never ever have kids. Some mature when it's required, but there are enough who don't.
Garyn Dakari said:
The "Thing" you speak of is a human life.
No, it's not. At the time where it's acceptable to have an abortion the nerves have yet to develop. Seriously, if you call this
a human life there is something seriously wrong with you. Especially since this is the foetus of a pig, which I am sure you did not gather from the image. An adult pig is a lot more developed than an early embryo, so by your definition we should not eat pigs because of how advanced they are. Even trees are more advanced than a foetus. There are a few requirements when we define life, and being able to find food is one of them. So by the ACTUAL definition a foetus can barely be called living at all.
*leaves all forms of religion at the door*
This is not about a cold hearted depiction of life. If humans were naturally psychopathic then yes, we could say this is about cold hearted depictions of life. But it is not. Human life is... Different (And if you disagree with me on that, this discussion is immediately done and your opinion is, in my eyes, invalidated) and by different I do not mean "Holy" or anything like that, I just mean that humans develop from embryos into, eventually, walking, talking, thinking people.
And that is the point that... Changes everything for me. Now at least, considering what I have already been through with regards to this topic. That little cluster of cells? If nature (Or science) does not get in its way will become a unique being. The chances of there being someone identical to him/her is, well impossible, both in genes and in who they will become. Now this is where the science gets blurred. The phrase "The whole is greater than the sum of its parts" does apply here. In reality? It is something beyond tiny that has no brain, no nervous system, no sense of self, it is a parasite. Hell, it takes a while for the little thing to be able to identify its parents AFTER is is born. But that little lump of cells is more than just... a little lump of cells. It is... Well, it is a hell of a lot of potential, but we cannot live our lives based on potential. Anyone will admit that it was the unique creation of two people and there will not be another bump of cells exactly like it ever again.
And that makes a difference.
Oh yes, you make arguments about "Complexity" but it depends on what levels you are grading complexity. In honesty that is a rather dead argument. Things are not just the sum of their parts.
Now, I am not against abortion per se, if the mothers life is at risk, for example, I am all for it. I just think that too many people think it is an easy choice (And everyone who thinks it is an easy choice is either naive or fucked up. Seriously, speaking from experience. I thought it would be an easy choice to make. I was naive) and too many people go through with it because they are scared of what it means and scared of having to change their lives. And in my eyes... Well, it feels like a bit of a punch to the groin. Which, as I have said, I feel bad about. But that is just how it feels.
tldr; blah blah blah, science is cold, it is not about the sum of its parts, it is about the whole and what it represents, oh god I overuse ellipsis whilst writing down my thoughts.
You call it cold hearted, I call it rational. I am using this way of discussing this because it's the best way to oppose a warm hearted idealism. We can be pro-choice and still be warm hearted. I think of the people involved. A kid brought into life unwanted may cause suffering to the parents and in turn for the kid itself. I see that as a lot worse than being denied life before there even is talk of life. Calling a lump of cells where the only thing that has been establishes is the axises of a deuterestromic embryonic development is warm hearted. There is little difference between what we see in other mammals, in the first 2 weeks you wouldn't see the difference between a frog and a human.
You say there are a lot of different ways to look at complexity, sure. Let's take a look at some.
An adult pig can feel pain. A human Foetus can't
An Adult pig can think. A human Foetus cant.
An Adult pig can move freely and live on its own. A human foetus can't.
An Adult pig got all nerves and organs. A human Foetus don't.
An adult pig has developed it's gender. A human foetus will have to wait for the SRY gene to activate to determine gender.
A human foetus got the 3 axises determined which determines the orientation of the new development and differentiation on a cellular level. Guess what, a pig has already been through that. On all gradings of complexity a foetus is less than our food.
You accuse me of being cold hearted, but that's not true. I want kids, but I know the truth of this. Human life isn't sacred. We value it more because we are attached to it, we can relate to it. We romanticize it, make it poetic. It's the miracle of life. However it's nothing special. I know there's a few who regret their abortions afterwards, just like there's a ton who regret having kids altogether. We do things we regret, but the choice should still be up to us. There is something in the saying that we can't learn from the mistakes of others. Am I cold hearted for believing we should control our lives?
No, but grading the life of a being that will eventually become sentient is cold hearted. Grading life as a whole is.
Look, I am going to have to back out of this.
I went through hell, this is a very... Personal debate. Heh, I always get drawn into abortion/parenthood/rape/daterape/mentalhealth threads and I usually back out of them for the same reasons. Too close to home.
In levels of biological complexity you are correct. But that argument leads me to the assumption that you believe biological complexity is what matters more. That is why I said it is a dead end argument. And again.
It is more than the sum of its parts. That is the bit that is important. You have to hold both views in mind, both its potential and what it really is. You cannot ignore the potential. If you do not hold what it will become to account, no doctor would ever allow someone to go through pregnancy. A parasite, consuming your food and changing your body that can potentially kill you? But that is what it is.
The logical conclusion of the biological complexity argument is for humanity to be sterilized to prevent parasites from entering females and for humanity to live entirely on vegetables for the 80 or so years it takes for us to finally die out. Which is why I say the biological complexity argument is a pointless side to the entire debate, in some ways it is the entire debate and in others it has nothing to do with the debate. Sure, it has been made many, many times by people who are pro choice. And, I would like to restate this, I am pro choice and I see the merits of the argument. But... There is a lot more to this then just how complex the creature is and boiling it down to cold, logical science alone is, in my eyes, a defence issue.
Not because people think they are murdering children, they are not. But because it is a scary prospect. I have been there, I have stood on the cliff edge, I know what it looks like from the inside. The science scares people. Humanity has advanced to the point where we can detect and end the life of humans before it even begins. The potential scares people. There is a small part, however minute, that whispers the potentials of that group of cells into your ear.
But by concentrating on the cold science, by distancing yourself behind an argument which is both bulletproof and unrelated, you defend yourself from the realities of the action.
Abortion is neither right nor wrong. Each and every case is subjective and where possible should be a decision made by both of the people involved. But the biological argument alone, without the moral questions, is... Not enough.