Poll: Zach Snyder is great and his superhero films are the best of recent years. What do you reckon?

Buffoon1980

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I watched Justice League last night. Yes, I'm late to that party but I'm no pop culture obsessive, in fact I usually avoid superhero films or get bored halfway through. But as I was watching it, I found myself thinking repeatedly, 'Y'know, I don't care what anybody says, this is actually pretty good.'

For my money it really struck a great balance. It didn't take itself too seriously, but it did take itself seriously enough to make the characters interesting. The plot was fairly shallow but it was sufficient to get the action moving and to bring the characters together. The pacing, I thought, was really good - nothing was dwelt on for too long, but I got enough of an idea of what was happening and the character's motivations to satisfy me as a casual viewer (apparently the pacing was heavily criticised; I honestly can't see why). There was just enough light-heartedness to keep the mood up without descending into distracting glibness.

Most importantly, there was some real pathos. I farking LOVE Henry Cavill's Superman (indeed my main complaint of the film is that he wasn't in it more). He does a superb job of portraying that most under-utilised of Superman's traits: the implicit unease of a being so strong that he could be our greatest saviour... or our doom. And the other characters had elements that added their own pathos. I particularly liked the ambiguity around Cyborg's enhancements... blessing or curse? Benevolent gift, or malignant threat that even he cannot control or predict?

I'm not going to go into Batman vs Superman, I'm WAY too late to that party. I'll just say I loved it, for all its flaws. And Watchmen genuinely is my favourite superhero film of all time.

Apparently this is not a common viewpoint. In fact I know no one personally who agrees with me. But there's got to be someone out there who has a distinct preference for what Snyder's done, surely?
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Watchmen and BvS are two of the best superhero movies, if not the two best superhero movies, ever made.

Man of Steel and Justice League where both kinda garbage but I don't blame Snyder for that. They had a troubled production and both would have been better, had he been given more creative freedom and, in case of Justice League, the final cut.
 

Hawki

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Snyder isn't the best, but he's by no means the worst.

Looking at the examples you've cited, Man of Steel was...okay. I really liked it, but I can't deny it has flaws, mainly in its pacing and style of editing. But it's certainly an interesting take on Superman, and Zod is a better villain than most superhero movie villains, so there is that.

Batman v Superman is a mess. It's a beautiful looking, very ambitous mess that wants to try and say something profound, but is a mess all the same.

If we're counting Justice League as a Snyder film, then JL is...fine. It's average. It's acceptable. It's a dumb popcorn flick. Popcorn that's tasty at times, but popcorn all the same. But on that note, I'd have preferred it if Supes was cut out of the film altogether, because as soon as he turns up, he pretty much gives the JL god mode. MoS was interesting because it at least gave Supes a challenge and was a more realistic look at what would actually happen if someone like Supes turned up (or at least how the world would react). JL is bereft of any of that. At the end of the day, it's a lesser version of the Avengers (which I'm not fond of either).

So, yeah. I don't think Snyder is some misunderstood genius, but he isn't the hack some people make him out to be. He's...average. I think he's had some interesting takes on Supes, but they didn't get executed well enough. And while he can be credited for launching the DCEU, from what we've seen of Aquaman and Shazam, the DCEU is now trying to stay well clear of his legacy. That, and he had nothing to do with the DCEU's only uncontested success (Wonder Woman), so, yeah.
 

madwarper

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Statistically speaking... Someone was bound to like it.

With exception to 3/4th of Wonder Woman, the DCEU has been one hot mess after another. And, Justice League is no exception.

As for your title, I question whether Justice League can be called a Snyder film, because he had to step down in post-production and Joss Whedon took over and did massive reshoots. I would be interested in seeing how Snyder's film version would have been if he had stayed at the helm.

But, the main problem with Justice League is that it jumped the shark. Darkseid already? Marvel didn't do Thanos until Avengers 4 (Civil War might as well have been Avengers 3).

I go could into further details on how Justice League should have been, but this is covered really well by Nando v Movies.

But, if we're going to build on this pile of slop, since Cavill appears to be out, as well as Affleck as soon as he gets out of rehab, the only way I see save any part of this is to do an Earth 2, "kill off" the trinity in the first 5 minutes, then introduce the Age of Wonders. And, instead of bring back a brainwashed Superman, bring back Wonder Woman since she's the only diamond in the DCEU ruff.
 

Casual Shinji

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I reckon I disagree.

Not that I consider the Marvel movies as the cream of the crop, but they're at least somewhat watchable, some of them even good. The Incredibles and Spider-Man 2 still beat both of them. And whether seen as worse by geeks, I highly prefer the pre-MCU Marvel movies to what we have now, as at least those movies had some teeth; people got killed, the action was sharp, and as movies they stood on their own, they weren't used as stepping stones for the next big event. The MCU is just a countdown to the next event, making a lot of those movies obsolete once that event hits.


From the looks of it DC is going for stand-alone movies now, ditching the whole cinematic universe for a while, with projects like the new Joker movie. And I'm glad they are. Cinematic universes are the biggest curse plaguing the modern movie landscape, yes, even Marvel.
 

Thaluikhain

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Eh, I'm thinking X-Men are winning. Still lots of improvement, and the hypocritical preaching gets annoying, but, eh. The MCU really doesn't appeal to me, and DC can't even do that.
 

Hawki

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Thaluikhain said:
Eh, I'm thinking X-Men are winning. Still lots of improvement, and the hypocritical preaching gets annoying, but, eh. The MCU really doesn't appeal to me, and DC can't even do that.
Winning so hard that they apparently decided to quit while they were ahead

(In that Dark Phoenix will almost certainly be the last X-Men film not under the MCU).
 

Thaluikhain

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Hawki said:
Winning so hard that they apparently decided to quit while they were ahead

(In that Dark Phoenix will almost certainly be the last X-Men film not under the MCU).
Winning in the sense that they are making movies that are reasonably good (according to me). For some reason that doesn't seem as attractive as making massively profitable rubbish.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Thaluikhain said:
Hawki said:
Winning so hard that they apparently decided to quit while they were ahead

(In that Dark Phoenix will almost certainly be the last X-Men film not under the MCU).
Winning in the sense that they are making movies that are reasonably good (according to me). For some reason that doesn't seem as attractive as making massively profitable rubbish.
I am gonna say it, I found neither of the X-Men movies to be any good.

I haven't seen the first 3 movies in a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time but I feel they have certainly aged even more poorly then the Raimi Spiderman movies.

But I was not fond at all of the movies Post X-Men First Class and thought First Class was awful just by visual and art direction alone and the Casting.

I mean none of the X-Men movies looks and feels like the X-Men for me. I.E. like this:



If Embedded images are not showing then here:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/42/53/8a42533c2cd4356a7f2e12d4d2c7885e.jpg
 

Chimpzy_v1legacy

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Thaluikhain said:
Eh, I'm thinking X-Men are winning. Still lots of improvement, and the hypocritical preaching gets annoying, but, eh. The MCU really doesn't appeal to me, and DC can't even do that.
Maybe you're on to something. This requires experimentation! We'll use the base cut-offs point of "which movies would I want to rewatch?". Very proven, reliable and rigorous! To the Sciencetorium!

Aaaaaaaaaand the results are in. For the purposes of this experiment, movies that meet our base cut-off point will be bolded. Our research has made these observations:

Iron Man
Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Thor
Thor: The Dark World
Thor: Ragnarok
The Incredible Hulk
Avengers
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Avengers: Infinity War
Captain America: The First Avenger
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Captain America: Civil War
Guardians Of The Galaxy
Guardians Of The Galaxy vol 2
Ant-Man
Ant-Man & The Wasp
Black Panther
Doctor Strange
Spider-Man: Homecoming

20 movies, of which 8 (40%) meet our base cut-off point.
Man Of Steel
Batman V Superman
Suicide Squad
Wonder Woman
Justice League

5 movies, of which 1 (20%) meet our base cut-off point.
X-Men
X-Men 2
X-Men: Last Stand
X-Men Origins: Wolverine
The Wolverine
Logan
X-Men: First Class
X-Men: Days Of Future Past
X-Men: Age Of Apocalypse
Deadpool
Deadpool 2

11 movies of which 5 (45%) meet our base cut-off point.

It is proven. The X-Men series is indeed the best. The numbers don't lie. Science(!!!) says so.

[small]Not your lame human science of course, but incomparably superior simian science. I'm a Professor of Monkey Business, so you can take my word for it[/small]
 

Xprimentyl

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Chimpzy said:
Iron Man
Iron Man 2
Iron Man 3
Thor
Thor: The Dark World
Thor: Ragnarok
The Incredible Hulk
Avengers
Avengers: Age of Ultron
Avengers: Infinity War
Captain America: The First Avenger
Captain America: The Winter Soldier
Captain America: Civil War
Guardians Of The Galaxy
Guardians Of The Galaxy vol 2
Ant-Man
Ant-Man & The Wasp
Black Panther
Doctor Strange
Spider-Man: Homecoming

20 movies, of which 8 (40%) meet our base cut-off point.
I've not seen all the movies listed like that before, and it cements what I've intuited for a very long time now: this convoluted knot of superhero films is obnoxious and exhausting, and for a quantifiable reason. I can't even tell you with any certainty which ones I've seen, which ones I haven't, in which movie which scenes I vaguely recall belong, whether or not "Hero A" was the titular character or just appearing in "Hero B's" movie, etc.; it's just a mess.

I think this is why Deadpool 1&2 and Venom appeal to me so much and are pretty much the only superhero movies I've truly enjoyed in years; they made hero films feel refreshing, interesting and FUN again (I don't expect many if any to agree with me.) They removed themselves from the very literal cacophony of the nonsense listed above and filled a niche for those who just want entertainment that doesn't hang itself by threads tied to a dozen other movies. Deadpool thumbs his nose at the bafflingly inbred MCU and just focuses on the singular character and is just a lot of fun. Rightly so, Venom was ripped from his symbiotic relationship (<--see what I did there?) with Spider-Man and the clamor and confusion of the MCU and was realized magnificently in his own, standalone film that was by FAR the best bringing-to-life of a character since Spider-Man in Raimi's Spider-Man 1&2 films (full disclosure: that is a highly biased opinion; I love Venom so much, that even as a heterosexual male, I would gladly to bear his children.) Black Panther came close to being in my "truly enjoyed" category, but knowing it was yet another dingleberry caught in the gravitational pull of the brown eye at the center of the MCU's ass was like sitting down for a late dinner with your spouse knowing full well they were late because they were fucking their ex an hour earlier, forced and uncomfortable.
 
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I mean, I liked the ending of movie Watchmen better than the ending of comic Watchmen, I'll give him that. Sorry Alan Moore but the giant space squid made with a child psychic's brain tissue raises a whole lot of questions about the structure of your universe. Making it about the guy who's already been established as a major game changer really kind of fits with the theme of the universe better
 

Trunkage

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Palindromemordnilap said:
I mean, I liked the ending of movie Watchmen better than the ending of comic Watchmen, I'll give him that. Sorry Alan Moore but the giant space squid made with a child psychic's brain tissue raises a whole lot of questions about the structure of your universe. Making it about the guy who's already been established as a major game changer really kind of fits with the theme of the universe better
I liked the movie ending also because he used the Dr Manhattan threat against everyone. That feels like it fits the theme of paranoia develop in the story.

OT: I certainly like Henry Cavill over Christopher Reeve. The latter is some of the most disgusting jingoistic 'hero' that I've ever seen. It is topped by the first Captain America, which is the worst superhero movie. Ever. Yes Howard the Duck was better.

Are the good movies? Justice League was as good as the first Avengers. BUT its no longer new and fresh idea. A lot of the DCEU was like Age of Ultron. Had some high minded concepts but didnt stick the landing. DCEU is treated like Star Wars. Anything that isnt the absolute best must be the absolute worst. There is no inbetween. Me persoanlly, I'd call them fine, with Wonder Woman being good.
 

Hawki

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If we're using SCIENCE! to determine the best cinematic universe...okay, I'll play:

MCU

Iron Man
Iron Man 2
Thor
Captain America: The First Avenger
The Avengers
Iron Man 3
Guardians of the Galaxy
The Avengers: Age of Ultron
Captain America: Civil War
Doctor Strange
Guardians of the Galaxy: Volume 2
Spider-Man: Homecoming
Thor: Ragnarok
Avengers: Infinity War
Ant-Man and the Wasp

So, according to SCIENCE!, of the 15 MCU films I've seen, 5 are good, giving it a 33% "good" rate.

I'll spare you some time and say that the DCEU has a 0% "good" rate for me, so moving onto the XCU:

XCU

X-Men
X-Men 2 (seen about 50% of it, but I'm counting it)
X-Men: The Last Stand
X-Men: First Class
X-Men: Apocalypse
Logan
Deadpool
Deadpool 2

So, of the 8 XCU films I've seen, 3 are good, meaning that 37% of the XCU films are "good."

Huh. So according to SCIENCE! the XCU is indeed better than the MCU.

SCIENCE!
 

Casual Shinji

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trunkage said:
Palindromemordnilap said:
I mean, I liked the ending of movie Watchmen better than the ending of comic Watchmen, I'll give him that. Sorry Alan Moore but the giant space squid made with a child psychic's brain tissue raises a whole lot of questions about the structure of your universe. Making it about the guy who's already been established as a major game changer really kind of fits with the theme of the universe better
I liked the movie ending also because he used the Dr Manhattan threat against everyone. That feels like it fits the theme of paranoia develop in the story.
Except it goes against the plan of uniting humanity. Making Dr. Manhattan the threat will ultimately lead people to point the finger at America, since he's the symbol of America's dominance. That and Dr. Manhattan is pretty much a know quantity to the world. The space squid is supposed to evoke a lovecraftian fear in people that would make them see even their worst enemy as an ally, simply due to them being fellow humans. Manhattan has a link not only to humanity, but to America as well, therefor he wouldn't produce the same level of terror for the unknown.


Not that the squid plan is flawless, mind you. It was afterall created with the same genetics that Adrian's pet tiger thing was made with (from what I remember correctly), so it wouldn't be too far fetched if someone put two and two together.
 

Elfgore

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Watchmen is solid and I think the only other movie I've seen is Man of Steel and that about put me to sleep. He has a style, which is fine. But I played a lot of video games during the dark and gritty times and honestly I'm kinda sick of it. I do plan on watching Justice League and Batman v. Superman. Maybe those will change my mind.
 

Trunkage

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Casual Shinji said:
trunkage said:
Palindromemordnilap said:
I mean, I liked the ending of movie Watchmen better than the ending of comic Watchmen, I'll give him that. Sorry Alan Moore but the giant space squid made with a child psychic's brain tissue raises a whole lot of questions about the structure of your universe. Making it about the guy who's already been established as a major game changer really kind of fits with the theme of the universe better
I liked the movie ending also because he used the Dr Manhattan threat against everyone. That feels like it fits the theme of paranoia develop in the story.
Except it goes against the plan of uniting humanity. Making Dr. Manhattan the threat will ultimately lead people to point the finger at America, since he's the symbol of America's dominance. That and Dr. Manhattan is pretty much a know quantity to the world. The space squid is supposed to evoke a lovecraftian fear in people that would make them see even their worst enemy as an ally, simply due to them being fellow humans. Manhattan has a link not only to humanity, but to America as well, therefor he wouldn't produce the same level of terror for the unknown.


Not that the squid plan is flawless, mind you. It was afterall created with the same genetics that Adrian's pet tiger thing was made with (from what I remember correctly), so it wouldn't be too far fetched if someone put two and two together.
Here is my interpretation. Manhattan was called out by Reagan, that not only did he betray the US but humanity. Reagan very much supported the act that got rid of superheroes. 'Manhattan's' actions was the last straw. He used this as an out, although I think him being a symbol was lessened in the movie.

Mind You, I havent seen the movie in about 5 years and only read the comic once. My interpretation isn't held by many but I don't think it conflicts with the story.. I do find the idea of a terrestrial threat (particularly related to the the heroes who are hated at the time) far more compelling that an 'extra terrestrial' threat. I think the Ozymandis reveal would have had more impact too, having betrayed his friends but plenty of people disagree with me.
 
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trunkage said:
Casual Shinji said:
trunkage said:
Palindromemordnilap said:
I mean, I liked the ending of movie Watchmen better than the ending of comic Watchmen, I'll give him that. Sorry Alan Moore but the giant space squid made with a child psychic's brain tissue raises a whole lot of questions about the structure of your universe. Making it about the guy who's already been established as a major game changer really kind of fits with the theme of the universe better
I liked the movie ending also because he used the Dr Manhattan threat against everyone. That feels like it fits the theme of paranoia develop in the story.
Except it goes against the plan of uniting humanity. Making Dr. Manhattan the threat will ultimately lead people to point the finger at America, since he's the symbol of America's dominance. That and Dr. Manhattan is pretty much a know quantity to the world. The space squid is supposed to evoke a lovecraftian fear in people that would make them see even their worst enemy as an ally, simply due to them being fellow humans. Manhattan has a link not only to humanity, but to America as well, therefor he wouldn't produce the same level of terror for the unknown.


Not that the squid plan is flawless, mind you. It was afterall created with the same genetics that Adrian's pet tiger thing was made with (from what I remember correctly), so it wouldn't be too far fetched if someone put two and two together.
Here is my interpretation. Manhattan was called out by Reagan, that not only did he betray the US but humanity. Reagan very much supported the act that got rid of superheroes. 'Manhattan's' actions was the last straw. He used this as an out, although I think him being a symbol was lessened in the movie.

Mind You, I havent seen the movie in about 5 years and only read the comic once. My interpretation isn't held by many but I don't think it conflicts with the story.. I do find the idea of a terrestrial threat (particularly related to the the heroes who are hated at the time) far more compelling that an 'extra terrestrial' threat. I think the Ozymandis reveal would have had more impact too, having betrayed his friends but plenty of people disagree with me.
My major problem with the squid is that it relies largely on using the aforementioned psychic brain tissue to create a kind of mental backlash when it dies, unleashing a wave of despair and worry over the planet that will apparently last five years. Its not just the otherworldly nature of the creature, its an actual almost medical effect its caused. So...what happens when those five years are up? What happens when the psychic effect wears off, do people go back to being angry and paranoid at each other? Does Ozy have to create another squid? Good luck with that after murdering all the people responsible for the last one.
Also, there are psychics in this universe? Since when? And doesn't that somewhat undercut the whole thing where Dr. Manhattan is the only one with powers? Its been kind of a major issue that his actual genuine superpowers are seriously unbalancing the scales, you're telling me there are in fact other people with powers out there?

Thats why I think making the threat "Dr. Manhattan bombs" works better. People are already scared of him, know he's a very real threat, its just he's been co-operating so far. What happens when he doesn't? It means that Ozy isn't giving the people around Dr. M cancer just to keep him off his game and distracted, he's doing it to get the groundwork in that this guy is a danger to everyone even when he doesn't mean to be, not just a threat to America's enemies. With his very public meltdown on that interview, Dr. M isn't just taking himself out the way so Ozy can get on with his real plan, it becomes part of the real plan to show how disconnected from humanity Dr. M is. I just think it works better than "And suddenly, giant squid monster!"