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Kind of with Agema here. Stormlight has very solid worldbuilding, but I'd struggle to tell you what actually happens in the first book plotwise.
Book 1 and to some extent 2, feel like they're setting up for the rest of the series. Book 3 When the desolation is now ongoing feels like what books 1 and 2 were building towards. They've got their cool base, a coalition is kinda there(though shakey AF), the The radiant orders are reforming and the true face of what's going on has been revealed somewhat.

It does require a lot of commitment to get to that point and that's not for everyone.
 

Agema

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Book 1 and to some extent 2, feel like they're setting up for the rest of the series. Book 3 When the desolation is now ongoing feels like what books 1 and 2 were building towards. They've got their cool base, a coalition is kinda there(though shakey AF), the The radiant orders are reforming and the true face of what's going on has been revealed somewhat.

It does require a lot of commitment to get to that point and that's not for everyone.
I might put it this way. If you can tell an entire 70-year life autobiography or the 6-month-long battle of Stalingrad in a book a third the length of the Way Of Kings, then there's something wrong with the Way Of Kings.

One the one hand you might have a sort of "lived experience" of a person, and on the other a story about stuff happening. The former will perhaps tend to revolve around lots of small incidents which give an idea of the bigger picture occurring in the background. The latter focuses on the bigger picture, enlivening with snapshots of the smaller scale. At the point you seem to be combining the two into a behemoth of a dozen lived experiences to tell a story of Big Stuff happening, what you get is an unwieldy tome that in my view succeeds at neither. The potentially powerful intimacy of the lived experience is diluted to triviality by the Big Stuff and multiple POV, and the Big Stuff occurs at such a glacial pace it's just frustrating.
 

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I might put it this way. If you can tell an entire 70-year life autobiography or the 6-month-long battle of Stalingrad in a book a third the length of the Way Of Kings, then there's something wrong with the Way Of Kings.

One the one hand you might have a sort of "lived experience" of a person, and on the other a story about stuff happening. The former will perhaps tend to revolve around lots of small incidents which give an idea of the bigger picture occurring in the background. The latter focuses on the bigger picture, enlivening with snapshots of the smaller scale. At the point you seem to be combining the two into a behemoth of a dozen lived experiences to tell a story of Big Stuff happening, what you get is an unwieldy tome that in my view succeeds at neither. The potentially powerful intimacy of the lived experience is diluted to triviality by the Big Stuff and multiple POV, and the Big Stuff occurs at such a glacial pace it's just frustrating.
I disagree with your assesment but you did a good job of justifiying your opinion.
 
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"Here at DisneyPolygon we deeply care about the issues minorities face in real life. Therefore we are determined to push for the accurate depiction of these issues in works of fiction. We want to ensure that even in space fantasy set in a galaxy far far away, with thousands of species of alien lifeform, black people will still face the same kind of discrimination they face here, and now, from their fellow, melanin deficient humans. Because we care."

Okay jokes aside, John Boyega himself said(in verbatim) at a BLM rally, that he couldn't care less where his movie career goes from now on. And i have a sneaky suspicion, he doesn't have a single fuck to give about SW anymore either.

All that has to been said about this article, was probably already said in this thread, so i'm just gonna throw in my 5 cents about Finn himself: I liked his character. I think there was a potential for a really good arc there; A disilusioned stormtrooper that has to face his former comrades, fighting along rebels that don't quite trust him. Too bad it was squandered. Twice.
 
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they tapped into the emo/edgey "they look sexy in black leather, and look badass with those blood colored laser swords" market?

More seriously, I think it's fairly simple. Since the whole setup for SW franchise is the conflict/war between the good/bad guys, you have to have merch for the bad guys so kids can have action figures to fight against when they play as the heroes. At least that's the "foot in the door" I think. And then they just expanded on that.

I do think it mostly just boils down to "Because they look cool", and the people's brains just sort of stop thinking about it beyond that point. How when they dress up like Vader, they just don't think "You know, I'm sort of pretending to be a genocidal maniac, who killed his own wife, destroyed a republic, murdered dozens of CHILDREN, and nearly single handedly, kept a galactic nation under the rule of fear for 20 years.....maaaybe I'm not ok with that? Naaah, it's ok, he's a FICTIONAL genocidal maniac, wife killing, child killing tyrant, so it's fine! And that disconnect is where my brain just sort of swerves like "wut?"
Because all the things we dress up as during Halloween aren't also like that? Scream masks, Jason masks, Freddy Kruger outfits, the devil (It doesn't matter if you believe in the Bible or not, real being or just a character, not a good guy) . Add into all this things like cosplayers dressing up as villains, various getups rock bands dress in, this isn't special guys...
 
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happyninja42

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Because all the things we dress up as during Halloween aren't also like that? Scream masks, Jason masks, Freddy Kruger outfits, the devil (It doesn't matter if you believe in the Bible or not, real being or just a character, not a good guy) . Add into all this things like cosplayers dressing up as villains, various getups rock bands dress in, this isn't special guys...
I have a problem with it because not everyone is able to differentiate fantasy from reality, and our media is informed by, and informs on, our real life. For example, the Thanos from the MCU's entire plan is a real world theory that some racist jackass proposed like...200 years ago? I forget precisely, but it's not something made up by Disney, it's a real societal policy someone came up with, and tried to make real. And the number of times I see "Thanos Was Right" shows that some people are hearing that line, and thinking "hmm, maybe he has a point." Yes, a lot of people are saying it ironically, but they were also ironically saying years ago, that the world was flat, and posting such shit online, and now we actually have people who think it's flat again, for real.

And it's not just First Order, I mean the number of films and tv shows that glorify the military and police, and show them being the hero when they abuse their authority and ignore the laws and rules, has some uncomfortable ramifications. Especially these days.

Let me put it this way. I've said before in other threads, that I work with veterans, so I see a lot of ex-military. And the number of them that I see with tattoos of the Punisher, often depicted as an american flag, and american flags depicted as carefully placed bullets to make up the stars and stripes, has made me rather bothered by that particular character. Sure, you can say all day "it's just fantasy, it's just fiction." But there are a LOT of people that it isn't fiction to them. It's a real belief system they ascribe to. And when that fictional belief system (either the homicidal vigilantism of Punisher, or the Nazi Fascism of the First Order) is as dangerous as it is, and people genuinely take it up, yeah that bothers me, to see it being literally sold to children as toys and merch.
 

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I have a problem with it because not everyone is able to differentiate fantasy from reality,
Which is their problem, not reality's.

For example, the Thanos from the MCU's entire plan is a real world theory that some racist jackass proposed like...200 years ago? I forget precisely, but it's not something made up by Disney, it's a real societal policy someone came up with, and tried to make real. And the number of times I see "Thanos Was Right" shows that some people are hearing that line, and thinking "hmm, maybe he has a point." Yes, a lot of people are saying it ironically, but they were also ironically saying years ago, that the world was flat, and posting such shit online, and now we actually have people who think it's flat again, for real.
Except Thanos is presented as the bad guy. He's such a bad guy that even his philosophy is built on "I say so." The evidence for his position comes from personal experience and...that's it. There's nothing in the MCU that suggests that overpopulation is some kind of universal issue. He's one of the better villains in the MCU with slightly more moral ambiguity than most, but when motives include "destroy the universe because I dislike light or something," that's a low bar to surpass.

If people want to take up Thanos's philosophy, that's on them, but I'm not sure how much more Marvel could do without adding a disclaimer that the film is intending to show Thanos as the bad guy.
 
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happyninja42

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Which is their problem, not reality's.



Except Thanos is presented as the bad guy. He's such a bad guy that even his philosophy is built on "I say so." The evidence for his position comes from personal experience and...that's it. There's nothing in the MCU that suggests that overpopulation is some kind of universal issue. He's one of the better villains in the MCU with slightly more moral ambiguity than most, but when motives include "destroy the universe because I dislike light or something," that's a low bar to surpass.

If people want to take up Thanos's philosophy, that's on them, but I'm not sure how much more Marvel could do without adding a disclaimer that the film is intending to show Thanos as the bad guy.
I'm well aware they present Thanos as the bad guy, my point is that some people don't really stop at "it's just a show, I should really just relax", and they weaponize and politicize everything in our media. The polygon article this very thread is in response to is a great example of that. People take this shit too seriously. And if the stuff they are taking too seriously, is things like "philosophies of genocide and tyrannical rule, or homicidal vigilantism and police brutality", then I have a problem with selling that shit to kids yes. I don't care that they particularly wrote Thanos as a genocidal badguy, he's hardly the worst, its following that up with "and now here's a Thanos mask and glove for your 5 year old, so he can re-enact Thanos' policy of hate and murder when playing with his friends."

Again, not everyone has this problem, but enough do, that I think it's a valid question of "should we be marketing this and making money off perpetuating it?" Because the nerd community has proven quite succinctly over the last decade or so, that if you try and question the moral qualifications of the stuff theylove, and played with as a kid, they lose their shit, and begin a social pogrom against you in the real world. So it's not like it exists in a vacuum.
 

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I'm well aware they present Thanos as the bad guy, my point is that some people don't really stop at "it's just a show, I should really just relax", and they weaponize and politicize everything in our media. The polygon article this very thread is in response to is a great example of that. People take this shit too seriously. And if the stuff they are taking too seriously, is things like "philosophies of genocide and tyrannical rule, or homicidal vigilantism and police brutality", then I have a problem with selling that shit to kids yes. I don't care that they particularly wrote Thanos as a genocidal badguy, he's hardly the worst, its following that up with "and now here's a Thanos mask and glove for your 5 year old, so he can re-enact Thanos' policy of hate and murder when playing with his friends."
I'm not sure if the Polygon article and Thanos are really equivalents here.

Thanos presents an idea that's Malthusian in nature. It's an idea that's tangibly expressed in the context of the movie, and has real-world equivalents. In contrast, the Polygon article is criticizing Star Wars not for doing something or expressing an idea, but for NOT expressing an idea. One of these things is based on material that actually exists in a work of fiction, the other is grafting ideas from the real world onto a work of fiction. The former is a valid means of critique, the latter? Not so much. If my criticism of a work is for it to not do something, then what I can criticize it for can potentially stretch ad infinitum.

Now, there's technically a middle ground here, where people can read a work and derive meaning from it, even if the meaning being derived appears ridiculous. It's why the Escapist can run an article claiming that Gears 5 is a celebration of genocide, or more recently, why I've seen comments stating that the Harry Potter novels condone chattel enslavement, colonialism, and as of Crimes of Grindlewald, supporting the alt-right. But even these things are taking stuff from the text, albeit interpreting it in a way I find...iffy, to say the least. The Polygon article? Not so much. Though it somehow takes Rose's comment about saving what we love as an argument for conciliation with the First Order...somehow...so there's that, I guess.
 

happyninja42

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I'm not sure if the Polygon article and Thanos are really equivalents here.

Thanos presents an idea that's Malthusian in nature. It's an idea that's tangibly expressed in the context of the movie, and has real-world equivalents. In contrast, the Polygon article is criticizing Star Wars not for doing something or expressing an idea, but for NOT expressing an idea. One of these things is based on material that actually exists in a work of fiction, the other is grafting ideas from the real world onto a work of fiction. The former is a valid means of critique, the latter? Not so much. If my criticism of a work is for it to not do something, then what I can criticize it for can potentially stretch ad infinitum.

Now, there's technically a middle ground here, where people can read a work and derive meaning from it, even if the meaning being derived appears ridiculous. It's why the Escapist can run an article claiming that Gears 5 is a celebration of genocide, or more recently, why I've seen comments stating that the Harry Potter novels condone chattel enslavement, colonialism, and as of Crimes of Grindlewald, supporting the alt-right. But even these things are taking stuff from the text, albeit interpreting it in a way I find...iffy, to say the least. The Polygon article? Not so much. Though it somehow takes Rose's comment about saving what we love as an argument for conciliation with the First Order...somehow...so there's that, I guess.
What I meant in regards to this article, is the idea that a fictional franchise like Star Wars, is somehow supposed to tackle real world issues like racism, and if it doesn't, it's somehow a problem? At least that's the gist I've gleaned from people talking about the article in this thread. No it's not in the context of Thanos' genocide, but it IS in the context of my comment about our society taking our entertainment too seriously. When you are criticizing a series that's about space wizards with laser swords for not tackling current topics to your satisfaction, I think there's an issue. Now I don't have a problem with media wanting to tackle important stuff, that's fine. But to say a franchise has to address it the way you specifically want (you being polygon) is bullshit. Besides, it totally ignores the fact that the franchise HAS done that very thing, it just didn't specifically do black issues, since it makes no fucking sense to limit racism to a subset of one species in the entire galactic society. But it DOES make sense, to replace the issues of racism towards blacks with something like...oh I don't know, the DROIDS. Which they do address, at least in Solo. So it's a dumb article, but it is a symptom of an over-seriousification (yes I'm coining that damnit!) of our entertainment. It's just a fucking film about space wizards with laser swords and talking dog copilots. Don't lay the mantle of modern change and societal upheaval on it, because that's just unfair and silly.
 

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What I meant in regards to this article, is the idea that a fictional franchise like Star Wars, is somehow supposed to tackle real world issues like racism, and if it doesn't, it's somehow a problem? At least that's the gist I've gleaned from people talking about the article in this thread. No it's not in the context of Thanos' genocide, but it IS in the context of my comment about our society taking our entertainment too seriously. When you are criticizing a series that's about space wizards with laser swords for not tackling current topics to your satisfaction, I think there's an issue. Now I don't have a problem with media wanting to tackle important stuff, that's fine. But to say a franchise has to address it the way you specifically want (you being polygon) is bullshit. Besides, it totally ignores the fact that the franchise HAS done that very thing, it just didn't specifically do black issues, since it makes no fucking sense to limit racism to a subset of one species in the entire galactic society. But it DOES make sense, to replace the issues of racism towards blacks with something like...oh I don't know, the DROIDS. Which they do address, at least in Solo. So it's a dumb article, but it is a symptom of an over-seriousification (yes I'm coining that damnit!) of our entertainment. It's just a fucking film about space wizards with laser swords and talking dog copilots. Don't lay the mantle of modern change and societal upheaval on it, because that's just unfair and silly.
I believe the gist of the article is "it's 3pm on a Friday and the boss wants an editorial done by tonight, lemme pull a college lit essay out of my ass so I can get paid and go home."
 
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Specter Von Baren

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What I meant in regards to this article, is the idea that a fictional franchise like Star Wars, is somehow supposed to tackle real world issues like racism, and if it doesn't, it's somehow a problem? At least that's the gist I've gleaned from people talking about the article in this thread. No it's not in the context of Thanos' genocide, but it IS in the context of my comment about our society taking our entertainment too seriously. When you are criticizing a series that's about space wizards with laser swords for not tackling current topics to your satisfaction, I think there's an issue. Now I don't have a problem with media wanting to tackle important stuff, that's fine. But to say a franchise has to address it the way you specifically want (you being polygon) is bullshit. Besides, it totally ignores the fact that the franchise HAS done that very thing, it just didn't specifically do black issues, since it makes no fucking sense to limit racism to a subset of one species in the entire galactic society.
Reminds me of Retronauts talking about Bioshock and talking about how, for some reason, the fact that the creators expect you to be smart enough to look at Rapture as it is and understand that Andrew Ryan's philosophy doesn't work and not need the story to beat you over the head with it is bad. (And holy shit, if there's a show that went off the deep end when it comes to inserting politics where it's not needed, it's that one)
 

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I don't think people care about particular ethnic groups, at least as seen thus far, in the Star Wars Univers. But there is plenty of straitup racism when it comes to speicies. Wookies in particular are enslaved heavily.
 

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Reminds me of Retronauts talking about Bioshock and talking about how, for some reason, the fact that the creators expect you to be smart enough to look at Rapture as it is and understand that Andrew Ryan's philosophy doesn't work and not need the story to beat you over the head with it is bad. (And holy shit, if there's a show that went off the deep end when it comes to inserting politics where it's not needed, it's that one)
Wait, they were aruging Bioshock was being too subtle in it's themes of "Objectivism doesn't work" or way too heavy handed? I never watched Retronauts.
 

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But it DOES make sense, to replace the issues of racism towards blacks with something like...oh I don't know, the DROIDS.
I know Star Wars tackles specism in its EU, but I don't think the droids in Solo are a good example. L3's attempt at a revolution are played for laughs more than anything else. And even if it was meant to be taken seriously, is it an analogy for slavery, or rallying the workers to unite against the meatbag bourgois? I dunno, but there's nothing particuarly "black" about any such droid revolution.
I believe the gist of the article is "it's 3pm on a Friday and the boss wants an editorial done by tonight, lemme pull a college lit essay out of my ass so I can get paid and go home."
I think it's more in the spirit of what's going on in the US and around the world. It's why, in my initial comment, that I was reluctant to criticize it too much.

I mean, I don't agree with the thesis, but it's a thesis that's coming from a genuine place, even if I find some bits to be willful manipulation (e.g. Rose's line).
 

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Wait, they were aruging Bioshock was being too subtle in it's themes of "Objectivism doesn't work" or way too heavy handed? I never watched Retronauts.
Too subtle. They said that it wasn't being hard enough on it, as if the destruction of an entire society was being easy.

(Cane and Rinse is a far better retro video games podcast.)
 

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Too subtle. They said that it wasn't being hard enough on it, as if the destruction of an entire society was being easy.

(Cane and Rinse is a far better retro video games podcast.)
Not sure how much harder they expected to hit the point. I mean, every other fucking audiolog hammers home the point of how a society where everyone is self interested above all else ends poorly.

Also, selling guns and drugs out of vending machines might not have been the smartest move on Ryans part.

I wonder what they would think of "Anemsia: A Machine for pigs" repeatdly beats you over the head with "Hey, did you realize the machine is captalism and the pigs are humanity being slaughtered and it's all a metaphor for humanity in an uncaring capatalist society. Because if you didn't, we'll remind you again in 15 minutes". It would be fine if it was subtext of A:AMFP beats you over the head with it over and over again and it's a 4 hour game.

I mean, Christ, I'm not exactly super fond of capitalism either, but I FUCKING GET IT.

It's not unlike watching the Ken Russell film of Tommy, where Tommy is meant to be a Christ figure and it's really, really not subtle about it.
 
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Not sure how much harder they expected to hit the point. I mean, every other fucking audiolog hammers home the point of how a society where everyone is self interested above all else ends poorly.

Also, selling guns and drugs out of vending machines might not have been the smartest move on Ryans part.
Well, like it or not that's the face of contemporary pop culture and pop culture criticism. And that's where a lot of us externally-identified "racists", "alt-right", "homophobes", and "incels" draw ire -- because we're capable of understanding nuance, theme, allegory, and symbolism, and reject superficial, creatively-bankrupt, and disturbingly self-contradictory messaging, that bears more commonality with medieval Catholic morality play than any genre of modern fiction. And that we noticed which work says what correlates far more weakly to its level of critical acclaim, than who's cutting the biggest checks to whom.
 

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I am sure that's true for some of you...a dozen people in the same group who just agrees with the critique because it fits their pre-conceived notions on the subject but would be wholly unable to deliver anything but superficial critique on their own.
Which is basically akin to stating a simple maxim upon which everyone would ideally agree, but at the same time will fight to the eyeteeth to deny the moment partisan politics enters the equation: the internet has a dumbass problem, not an exclusively left or right problem. Itself corollary to a higher-order maxim upon which all should agree: the internet has a capitalism (in this case, through the lens of rage and click baiting) problem. Those who view this through an exclusively "left" or "right" lens, do little but make of themselves useful idiots to capital.