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happyninja42

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Reminds me of Retronauts talking about Bioshock and talking about how, for some reason, the fact that the creators expect you to be smart enough to look at Rapture as it is and understand that Andrew Ryan's philosophy doesn't work and not need the story to beat you over the head with it is bad. (And holy shit, if there's a show that went off the deep end when it comes to inserting politics where it's not needed, it's that one)
Never played Bioshock, but I would assume the opening moments of the game would illustrate that his Randyan utopia didn't work...what with all the decay and destroyed stuff, and horror show creations wandering the streets attacking you on sight. I mean, I've seen opening scenes of it on youtube, and it's pretty standard story telling elements. You have dialogue making Point A, but you superimpose it over a location that implies Point B, where Point B, is directly contrary to Point A. You don't have to play the game to figure that out, you just have to look at the imagery in front of you.

I mean that's not even unique to Bioshock. That juxtaposition of imagery and narrative is a staple of storytelling for...well for a long time. Images of a wasteland while playing a happy song. "I don't want to set the woooorld ooooon fiiiire." Nursery rhymes being sung by children while images of a mass grave are shown.

So yeah, whoever the Retronauts are, that's a silly conclusion to come to based on basic human storytelling tools.
 

Agema

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Never played Bioshock, but I would assume the opening moments of the game would illustrate that his Randyan utopia didn't work...what with all the decay and destroyed stuff, and horror show creations wandering the streets attacking you on sight.
True, but the interesting analysis is in the whys of its collapse, not the fact that it has collapsed. After all, it could just collapse due to some sort of extrinsic calamity like a natural disaster or plague.

It's hardly the stuff of degree-level politics and philosophy, but Bioshock's got a lot more depth than "Aliens have invaded because they're bad and they just are, get to A and collect bomb, get to B and put bomb in rocket, get to C and launch missile, you've blown up the alien spaceship, party hard".
 

happyninja42

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True, but the interesting analysis is in the whys of its collapse, not the fact that it has collapsed. After all, it could just collapse due to some sort of extrinsic calamity like a natural disaster or plague.

It's hardly the stuff of degree-level politics and philosophy, but Bioshock's got a lot more depth than "Aliens have invaded because they're bad and they just are, get to A and collect bomb, get to B and put bomb in rocket, get to C and launch missile, you've blown up the alien spaceship, party hard".
I am aware that the interest is in the why, and that the game would explore the why as you delve deeper into the game. I was commenting regarding the statement above, that some game reporters? Whoever Retronauts are, apparently said it was a flaw that they didn't spell that out to you.

I never said it was just "go to A and collect bomb, put bomb in rocket" like you said. I also never said the politics and philosophy of the game were dumb, I was simply remarking about the intuitive storytelling that is done by showing contrary elements in a visual medium, to convey intent. By showing Point A (the dialogue and sermons of the Architect of the city), overlayed by Point B (the clear ruin of this utopia he's currently preaching about). That doesn't have anything to do with politics and philosophy, that's just fundamental storytelling tools. Which is why I find Retronauts alleged comment (never read it myself, just going by what the person I quoted said), odd. Because there is no need for more in your face explanation of what's going on. It's ALREADY in your face in very understandable ways, because the game devs were smart enough to realize the player could understand the contradiction in the 2 elements being presented simultaneously.

It's just visual shorthand for "what you are hearing isn't true, or is at the very least, questionable, and you need to be skeptical and investigate what's going on." They did it again in Bioshock Infinite, which I did play. By showing you images and songs that imply a heavenly utopia, but then it's superimposed over the scene of a slave auction block, and a sign that says things like "White Only Fountain". It's very simple and straightforward use of image and sound. And it's frankly, fairly blunt and in your face about it.

So yeah, I don't see the logic behind what Retronauts said, as it seems to be in contradiction to what is actually shown in the game.
 

Specter Von Baren

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I am aware that the interest is in the why, and that the game would explore the why as you delve deeper into the game. I was commenting regarding the statement above, that some game reporters? Whoever Retronauts are, apparently said it was a flaw that they didn't spell that out to you.

I never said it was just "go to A and collect bomb, put bomb in rocket" like you said. I also never said the politics and philosophy of the game were dumb, I was simply remarking about the intuitive storytelling that is done by showing contrary elements in a visual medium, to convey intent. By showing Point A (the dialogue and sermons of the Architect of the city), overlayed by Point B (the clear ruin of this utopia he's currently preaching about). That doesn't have anything to do with politics and philosophy, that's just fundamental storytelling tools. Which is why I find Retronauts alleged comment (never read it myself, just going by what the person I quoted said), odd. Because there is no need for more in your face explanation of what's going on. It's ALREADY in your face in very understandable ways, because the game devs were smart enough to realize the player could understand the contradiction in the 2 elements being presented simultaneously.

It's just visual shorthand for "what you are hearing isn't true, or is at the very least, questionable, and you need to be skeptical and investigate what's going on." They did it again in Bioshock Infinite, which I did play. By showing you images and songs that imply a heavenly utopia, but then it's superimposed over the scene of a slave auction block, and a sign that says things like "White Only Fountain". It's very simple and straightforward use of image and sound. And it's frankly, fairly blunt and in your face about it.

So yeah, I don't see the logic behind what Retronauts said, as it seems to be in contradiction to what is actually shown in the game.
I want to make sure I'm not misrepresenting them so I'm going back over the podcast episode in question. We ARE getting very off topic but I would like to at least make sure I'm not giving everyone a false idea I've created from my memory first.
 
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Houseman

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The Bioshock Infinite DLC shows Rapture doing just fine. People are splicing responsibly, dining, shopping, and going about their business. Then, through the course of the game, you end up freeing a entire prison colony and releasing the original game's antagonist, which is arguably, the most direct cause of Rapture's downfall

But it's probably just a retcon
 

MrCalavera

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Too subtle. They said that it wasn't being hard enough on it, as if the destruction of an entire society was being easy.
Bioshock is about as subtle in its message as a brick.

It straight up starts with main villains'(up to a point at least) monologue, explaining why he believes in what he believes. His name is a play on 'Ayn Rand', and his antagonists' names reference her work.
And then we get to the audiologs...

Not saying it's a bad game, i had some fun with it, up to a point(but moreso with the 2nd one).

But it's probably just a retcon
Is it a retcon, or just 'another possible outcome' in a game about alternative timelines? (Never played DLCs, so it's not a rethorical one.)
 

Houseman

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Is it a retcon, or just 'another possible outcome' in a game about alternative timelines? (Never played DLCs, so it's not a rethorical one.)
I think it's supposed to be canon, as it deals directly with how Atlas got the hypnotic suggestion phrase.
 
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Silvanus

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The Bioshock Infinite DLC shows Rapture doing just fine. People are splicing responsibly, dining, shopping, and going about their business. Then, through the course of the game, you end up freeing a entire prison colony and releasing the original game's antagonist, which is arguably, the most direct cause of Rapture's downfall

But it's probably just a retcon
The people of Rapture in Burial at Sea also having their children abducted and mutated against their knowledge, though.

It's certainly canon, but it's not a functioning utopian society; it's just taking place before the inevitable collapse. Fontaine didn't make people go mad splicing, and people like Steinman, Suchong, and Cohen are all still working away just beneath the surface, liberated from "petty morality" as they called it.
 
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Agema

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The Bioshock Infinite DLC shows Rapture doing just fine. People are splicing responsibly, dining, shopping, and going about their business. Then, through the course of the game, you end up freeing a entire prison colony and releasing the original game's antagonist, which is arguably, the most direct cause of Rapture's downfall

But it's probably just a retcon
No. It's clear from the original Bioshock that life on Rapture is a society awaiting trouble, both in its downtrodden underclass and the limitless, selfish, greed of its elites. This is perhaps encapsulated by the way Ryan takes what he wants and gets an exotic dancer pregnant without caring about the consequences for her, and thus sows the seeds of his own ultimate downfall when she sells his child to Fontaine because she needs the money. Exploitation, desperation. Fontaine rises through his entrepreneurialism, and Ryan commends it. However, eventually he realises that Fontaine is a problem, and takes him down. At that point Ryan effectively joins Fontaine as a glorified mob boss, tyrannically taking control of things because he realises people can't be trusted.

Fontaine then returns as Atlas, and rabble rouses amongst the large and unhappy underclass to tear society down into outright civil war. But until that point there's certainly a happy and affluent middle class living it large. And so it is in many real life situations: lots of people may be having a great time until things break.
 

Hawki

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Fontaine then returns as Atlas, and rabble rouses amongst the large and unhappy underclass to tear society down into outright civil war. But until that point there's certainly a happy and affluent middle class living it large. And so it is in many real life situations: lots of people may be having a great time until things break.
How happy are they though? From what I recall of the audio logs, when we get them from 'the little people,' they don't seem that happy either. I remember the one with the family who take their daughter through the park, or try to, because they have to pay to use the park, because the trees are generating oxygen, and oxygen isn't free. And while realistically one person isn't representative of an entire society, from a storytelling standpoint, they can be.

I'll be honest, I don't think I got nearly as many audio logs as I should have, and a lot of my understanding of BioShock's storyline comes from the wiki. But as stated, logs or otherwise, even in a society like Rapture, someone will still have to clean the toilets.
 

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The Bioshock Infinite DLC shows Rapture doing just fine. People are splicing responsibly, dining, shopping, and going about their business. Then, through the course of the game, you end up freeing a entire prison colony and releasing the original game's antagonist, which is arguably, the most direct cause of Rapture's downfall

But it's probably just a retcon
Burial at sea felt like it had some retconing in it.

Notably suddenly changing Daisy Fitzroy's slide into extremism as being partially fake, which felt hollow to me, especially considering by that point the Vox were flat out masscring people but somehow we're expected to believe her threatening to gut a child was all staged for Elizabeths benefit.

I was also not super fond of the whole Elizabeth was there to set up Jack's activation reveal either. It felt unenessascary since Elizabeth was already responsible for unleashing Fotaines goons into Rapture and starting it's downfall.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Ok, so I've relistened to their episode on Bioshock.

There's weird things like them saying Bioshock is trying to do too many things? They equate Objectivism with every other right leaning ideology and their language made it seem like they initially thought the whole game was supposed to be a mocking kind of joke instead of an actual serious representation of what such an ideology could lead to (I mean, Adam could just as easily be any other weapon or drug for the purposes of it aiding in the collapse of the society).

The big sticking point, and I have no idea how true this is, is that the two main hosts are former video-game journalists and one of them interviewed one of the developers who said that the team wanted people to decide on their own how to interpret the game's message, which somehow he took to mean they were being wishy washy on the subject? Despite the game itself being pretty obvious. So I have no idea what the developer in question actually said or how they meant it, I can easily see them wanting people to decide for themselves to be that they didn't want to put people on guard towards the politics from the get go but instead get drawn into the world first.

I'm also reminded of how bad the show is. They don't even play games before an episode to refresh themselves on it and in this case their guest host kept correcting them throughout the episode. They're REALLY big left wing shills. What I mean by that is that they treat left agendas and philosophy as some kind of social brownie points to make themselves feel superior. The reason it's so hollow is like things in this episode how they talk about how bad capitalism is and every other right wing idea... but then have 6 minutes of shill commercials halfway through the episode and also they've locked off new content behind a paywall... yes... you TOTALLY are against capitalism. At least do some freaking research if you're going to make people pay you directly for content. (An example of the kind of person I'm talking about is MovieBob)

These kind of people disgust me. Anyway, if we get told to get back on topic I've said my peace on this particular tangent.
 
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Hawki

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but then have 6 minutes of shill commercials halfway through the episode and also they've locked off new content behind a paywall... yes... you TOTALLY are against capitalism.
Oh don't worry, they don't earn the means of production (YouTube). They're just doing the best they can in an oppressive system.

Y'know, I'm not enamored with capitalism (I work for local government, I don't own shares, I have no desire to start a business, and there's plenty to criticize capitalism for), but it seems that capitalism is to the left what socialism is to the right - a system that all social ills can be blamed upon, regardless of nuance. This, despite the fact that most governments in the world utilize a combination of the two.
 

Agema

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What I mean by that is that they treat left agendas and philosophy as some kind of social brownie points to make themselves feel superior. The reason it's so hollow is like things in this episode how they talk about how bad capitalism is and every other right wing idea... but then have 6 minutes of shill commercials halfway through the episode and also they've locked off new content behind a paywall... yes... you TOTALLY are against capitalism. At least do some freaking research if you're going to make people pay you directly for content. (An example of the kind of person I'm talking about is MovieBob)
Left-wing shills need to afford food too, and if the economic system they work in is capitalism, starving is not a reasonable alternative to earning money.

This relates to lines of argument such as that socialists are not allowed to be rich or successful because that means they're hypocritical. These arguments are unreasonable and dishonest, and mostly ways of unfairly delegitimising people's opinions. Individual capitalists have complete moral freedom: if they're rapacious then it's just the system, if they're generous then they're wonderful philanthropists. Socialists however are hypocrites if mean, and merely doing their ideological duty if generous. I would however argue there's a problem with a businessman claiming to be a socialist whilst they also proactively exploit workers (at least above and beyond the basic standards required by capitalism).

If by "left-wing shill" we mean an extreme liberal, then liberals don't object to capitalism, just excessive exploitation and inequality.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Left-wing shills need to afford food too, and if the economic system they work in is capitalism, starving is not a reasonable alternative to earning money.
Now see, that's where Cane and Rinse comes in. They're also a left leaning podcast, they also cover retro games, but they actually play the games they cover before each episode, they also don't block off their content behind a paywall, and they don't squeal all the time about how evil everyone on the right is when it has no relavance to what they're talking about (And before you make the assumption that I'm forgetting something, I'm not, this particular episode of Retronauts was one of the few times that bringing in politics was actually called for, they do it in their other episodes too). People doing less work for a worse product yet asking for more money? Sounds like the kind of people that a left leaning person would crucify if they were a right wing person. And all this while they talk about how good they are and how bad the other side is? Almost seems hypocritical doesn't it?

This relates to lines of argument such as that socialists are not allowed to be rich or successful because that means they're hypocritical. These arguments are unreasonable and dishonest, and mostly ways of unfairly delegitimising people's opinions. Individual capitalists have complete moral freedom: if they're rapacious then it's just the system, if they're generous then they're wonderful philanthropists. Socialists however are hypocrites if mean, and merely doing their ideological duty if generous. I would however argue there's a problem with a businessman claiming to be a socialist whilst they also proactively exploit workers (at least above and beyond the basic standards required by capitalism).

If by "left-wing shill" we mean an extreme liberal, then liberals don't object to capitalism, just excessive exploitation and inequality.
Oh gee, you mean I should just pretend I don't see people be hypocrites just because they're left wing? Cause that's what that sounds like. If someone decries something all the time then turns around and does it then why should someone not point it out, why should they not be held accountable? And I don't recall ever giving any impression that I just label anyone with a left leaning ideology as a shill before, this forum is made up of majority left leaning people but I don't call anyone here a shill, perhaps when I say shill I mean they are a shill that happens to be left wing and you're making an assumption? The definition of what's exploitation seems to be that as long as it's a right wing person you can say anything remotely capitalistic that they do is exploitative but if it's a a liberal we just ignore that. "These arguments are unreasonable and dishonest, and mostly ways of unfairly delegitimising people's opinions." Well pardon me for pointing out when someone decries this practice and then turns around and does it themselves, which is what Retronauts does. I'm not going to just say nothing when I see this kind of hypocritical crap.
 
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Eacaraxe

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This relates to lines of argument such as that socialists are not allowed to be rich or successful because that means they're hypocritical....
I believe to what's being referred, is the dual phenomena of woke capitalism, and the misuse of identity politics for clickbaiting.
 

Agema

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Oh gee, you mean I should just pretend I don't see people be hypocrites just because they're left wing? Cause that's what that sounds like.
Sounds to me like you're being super-defensive, but I'll leave that to you to reflect on that without me.

I believe to what's being referred, is the dual phenomena of woke capitalism, and the misuse of identity politics for clickbaiting.
If you're looking to YouTube and the like for your analysis, you can suck up the legions of amateurs and charlatans you're going to get.
 
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Specter Von Baren

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Sounds to me like you're being super-defensive, but I'll leave that to you to reflect on that without me.



If you're looking to YouTube and the like for your analysis, you can suck up the legions of amateurs and charlatans you're going to get.
I'm not sure why you keep bringing up YouTube. When did I say anything about YouTube?
 

Agema

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I'm not sure why you keep bringing up YouTube. When did I say anything about YouTube?
Oh, they have their own site or something, then? My mistake.

No real difference, though, except perhaps it requires slightly more ambition and web design skills.