Pope Francis: “Being Homosexual Isn’t a Crime.”

tstorm823

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Anyway, the post-Copernican history is well enough known. Copernicus's work was mostly ignored and buried by the Church, Tycho Brahe's was rejected, Kepler's book was banned, and we all know what happened to Galilleo and the lasting resistance beyond.
By buried Copernicus' work, I'm sure you mean they realigned the calendar based on his calculations. Also, Tycho Brahe was a Lutheran. And I'm not sure you do know what happened to Galileo, since I suspect "received a commuted sentence, lived out the rest of his life in a fine estate where he wrote significantly more influential works, earning the title of "Father of Modern Physics", and received frequent visitations to him from other prominent thinkers interested in picking his brain, and was eventually buried in a basilica with a monument to honor him" isn't what you think happened to him.
Sounds like tstorm talking about gender studies. Can't be true : "transgression" of the dogma and that's it.
You're not going to impress anyone running from me and speaking to the audience.
I get that you're a Houseman style contrarian. Otherwise you wouldn't have stormed into a thread promoting hate speech.
You're not arguing against me. You're only attempting to put words in my mouth. Maybe you think you're arguing against me, but then you really don't get it.
Because it didn't address the core issue or the content of the letter, but rather sidestepped it by talking about something else.
It's not something else. It's the underlying logic. If you asked why party balloon float upwards, and I explained the ideal gas law and the weight of helium, you wouldn't be justified to follow up with "but you never addressed the balloons!"
 

RhombusHatesYou

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Between There and There.
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The Wide, Brown One.
I look forward to a reborn civilization excavating us millenna after The End Times and looking puzzled at the size of our feet, given all the clown shoes their data says we wore. "It just doesn't make sense!" screams a future Tony Robinson as he digs up my cheeky remains.
We need to start a trend of extreme post-mortem body modification just to fuck with future archeologists.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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By buried Copernicus' work, I'm sure you mean they realigned the calendar based on his calculations. Also, Tycho Brahe was a Lutheran. And I'm not sure you do know what happened to Galileo, since I suspect "received a commuted sentence, lived out the rest of his life in a fine estate where he wrote significantly more influential works, earning the title of "Father of Modern Physics", and received frequent visitations to him from other prominent thinkers interested in picking his brain, and was eventually buried in a basilica with a monument to honor him" isn't what you think happened to him.
It's really dishonest to pretend that nothing bad happened to Galileo when he was PLACED ON HOUSE ARREST FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. His book was also officially prohibited and he was never allowed to teach or talk about heliocentrism. It also took the Catholic church 300 years to admit that they were wrong.

I mean sure, it's not as bad as being tortured to death, which the Catholic church loved doing AND THREATENED HIM WITH but let's not pretend that this was somehow a great outcome.
 

tstorm823

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It's really dishonest to pretend that nothing bad happened to Galileo when he was PLACED ON HOUSE ARREST FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE. His book was also officially prohibited and he was never allowed to teach or talk about heliocentrism. It also took the Catholic church 300 years to admit that they were wrong.

I mean sure, it's not as bad as being tortured to death, which the Catholic church loved doing AND THREATENED HIM WITH but let's not pretend that this was somehow a great outcome.
He accepted the penance willingly, and he did more to advance science under house arrest than he would have spending his time debating biblical interpretations and heliocentrism.

Edit: Because I'm 100% confident you don't understand the timeline here: Galileo was buried in a place of honor in a Catholic Church, essentially treated like a saint, centuries before the church "admitted wrongdoing". I'm sure that doesn't make sense to you, because you believe the Church punished Galileo for his scientific accomplishments. The opposite is true: the Catholic Church sponsored and celebrated Galileo the whole time for his scientific accomplishments, punished him for questioning his own religions authority to interpret its own scriptures, which he accepted, and then continued to support him under the house arrest.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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He accepted the penance willingly, and he did more to advance science under house arrest than he would have spending his time debating biblical interpretations and heliocentrism.
The alternative to accepting it "willingly" was torture and prison. At best it was accepted under duress.
 
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Dirty Hipsters

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He accepted the penance willingly, and he did more to advance science under house arrest than he would have spending his time debating biblical interpretations and heliocentrism.

Edit: Because I'm 100% confident you don't understand the timeline here: Galileo was buried in a place of honor in a Catholic Church, essentially treated like a saint, centuries before the church "admitted wrongdoing". I'm sure that doesn't make sense to you, because you believe the Church punished Galileo for his scientific accomplishments. The opposite is true: the Catholic Church sponsored and celebrated Galileo the whole time for his scientific accomplishments, punished him for questioning his own religions authority to interpret its own scriptures, which he accepted, and then continued to support him under the house arrest.
When Galileo died in 1642, the Grand Duke of Tuscany, Ferdinando II, asked that he be buried in the nave of the Basilica of Santa Croce. The Pope, however, protested the request due to Galileo's heliocentric heresy, and Galileo was buried in the Medici Chapel of the Novices in Santa Croce. His remains were later moved in 1737.


The body of Galileo, who had the family tomb in Santa Croce, was buried, almost secretly, in a small room near the Novitiate chapel on his death in 1642. The idea of a monument to Galileo, eagerly promoted by his loyal pupil Vincenzo Viviani, instantly aroused strong opposition in clerical circles. They felt it inappropriate to celebrate the memory of a man suspected of heresy. Almost a century was to go by before a funerary monument celebrating the great scientist was erected in the basilica's north aisle opposite the tomb of Michelangelo. The situation was only resolved thanks to the intervention of Grand Duke Gian Gastone de' Medici (1671–1737) and to his policy based on modernising the state to curb the power of the Church.
So no, he wasn't buried in a place of honor in a Basilica upon his death, and he wasn't celebrated by the Catholic church when he died. I understand the timeline perfectly well. Stop trying to whitewash history.
 
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tstorm823

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The alternative to accepting it "willingly" was torture and prison. At best it was accepted under duress.
That is incorrect. Galileo when interrogated renounced heliocentrism, claiming to never have believed in it. This was an obvious lie, and one that by the practices of inquisition at the time was the option likely to lead to torture, which they did not perform in deference to Galileo's reputation and advanced age.

Galileo lied to the inquisition and risked torture because he was a devoted Catholic, and admitting to the Pope that you believe and propagate heresy against the Church risks excommunication, the result Galileo most wanted to avoid.
When Galileo died in 1642, the Grand Duke of Tuscany, Ferdinando II, asked that he be buried in the nave of the Basilica of Santa Croce. The Pope, however, protested the request due to Galileo's heliocentric heresy, and Galileo was buried in the Medici Chapel of the Novices in Santa Croce. His remains were later moved in 1737.

So no, he wasn't buried in a place of honor in a Basilica upon his death, and he wasn't celebrated by the Catholic church when he died. Stop trying to whitewash history.
A) The chapel is on the same property. They moved him less than 1000 ft, declining only to bury him literally in the center of where the congregation sits.
B) I said exactly what I meant to say. He was buried in the basilica centuries before. 1992-1737=255.
C) "You can bury him in a public place of prominence for the Church, just keep it modest prominence" is not the persecution you want it to be.

Edit: I was incorrect. There is another church between the two, they moved him very slightly more than 1000 ft.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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That is incorrect. Galileo when interrogated renounced heliocentrism, claiming to never have believed in it. This was an obvious lie, and one that by the practices of inquisition at the time was the option likely to lead to torture, which they did not perform in deference to Galileo's reputation and advanced age.

Galileo lied to the inquisition and risked torture because he was a devoted Catholic, and admitting to the Pope that you believe and propagate heresy against the Church risks excommunication, the result Galileo most wanted to avoid.

A) The chapel is on the same property. They moved him less than 1000 ft, declining only to bury him literally in the center of where the congregation sits.
B) I said exactly what I meant to say. He was buried in the basilica centuries before. 1992-1737=255.
C) "You can bury him in a public place of prominence for the Church, just keep it modest prominence" is not the persecution you want it to be.
He was originally buried in the Medici Chapel of the Novices practically in secret, and his body was only later moved because of Grand Duke Gian Gastone de' Medici AGAINST the wishes of the church.

The church just didn't care enough to actually fight over it, but they weren't exactly thrilled about it.

Again, stop trying to twist history.
 

tstorm823

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He was originally buried in the Medici Chapel of the Novices practically in secret, and his body was only later moved because of Grand Duke Gian Gastone de' Medici AGAINST the wishes of the church.
Well now you're just writing fanfiction.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Well now you're just writing fanfiction.
Actually I'm quoting from the website for Basilica of Santa Croce. You know, the Basilica that Galileo is buried at? The one that is operated by the Catholic church and whose website would also written and maintained by or at the direction of the Catholic church?

One of us has a modern source from the Catholic church and the other is just going "NUH UH." Which one is writing fanfiction?
 

Satinavian

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Tycho Brahe's was rejected,
Wait, where did you get Tycho Brahes work being rejected from? Brahes Tychonic* model was the favorite one of the church at the beginning 17th century (even if it is not really geocentric but a hybrid). It was especially popular among the Jesuits who distributed it everywhere. Even the inquisition did bend itself backward to distinguish between his scientific work and himself who was a dirty protestant. We have "censored" copies where nothing was changed aside from removing his name.


*One of the real tragedies is that Brahes "geocentric" model und the Kopernican model promoted by Galilei are actually the same aside from the moon where Brahes model is better. It is just a matter of perspective/system of referrence. But people back then just didn't have the math to recognize that. The real improvements come with Keppler and then Newton (who doesn't change much of Kepplers work but embedds it in a more robust framework).




Anyway, it is true that the Catholic church was proven wrong on geocentrism and very publicly humiliated for it. It learned its lesson. Since then it was really careful when wighting in on scientific debate. For example it remained completely silent on Darwins evolution theory until the dust had settled and then went on to propose evolution conform bible interpretations. ( This time it was on the Anglicans and others to humiliate themself) Same with the various cosmological renovations and whatever other new discoveries.
 
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tstorm823

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Actually I'm quoting from the website for Basilica of Santa Croce. You know, the Basilica that Galileo is buried at? The one that is operated by the Catholic church and whose website would also written and maintained by or at the direction of the Catholic church?

One of us has a modern source from the Catholic church and the other is just going "NUH UH." Which one is writing fanfiction?
I guess you didn't find the "who we are" page of your source. The secular, non-profit owned by the Italian state...
 

Silvanus

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It's not something else. It's the underlying logic. If you asked why party balloon float upwards, and I explained the ideal gas law and the weight of helium, you wouldn't be justified to follow up with "but you never addressed the balloons!"
Nope, not in the slightest. That explanation would provide a full and appropriate framework for the original question. The various defences you've mounted for the letter haven't done so.

When the statement is "homosexuality is a tendency towards intrinsic moral evil", its not sufficient if your explanation doesn't address either homosexuality or evil.
 

Silvanus

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Lust is a sin.
If you consider this to be a full explanation, then it requires a few additional logical steps to bridge the gap between that statement and what the letter actually said.

Firstly, that homosexuality is always, and only, lust. Am I to understand, then, that all romantic or sexual activity that doesn't aim at procreation is also always and only lust, and therefore also "intrinsic moral evil"?

And therefore, it follows from this that an infertile person wishing to have a relationship and/or sex also has a "tendency towards intrinsic moral evil". Can I get you to apply the same wording to infertile people and those who are past menopause?

((The truth is, of course, that the Catholic Church and Benedict are far more willing to throw virulent condemnations towards gay people specifically. Because its not really about merely applying the same rationale as they do for straight people; it's a long-established practice of targeted discrimination)).
 

Absent

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Lust is a sin.
And you are a coward. Because in face of a homosexual, you avoid the implications of what you are saying. By answering "lust is a sin" to "is homosexuality evil" (and by the principle of implicit relevancy) you let your interlocutor infer "therefore homosexuality is evil" without saying to their face "you are evil".

Which you happen to be. Because fanatically fetishizing your inane dogmas at the expanse of human beings, at the expanse of curiosity and knowledge, prioritizing your symbols over actual lives, is (like violences on a flag's behalf, like punishing blasphemy, like crushing lives to satisfy bureaucratic categories) the most direct manifestation of dehumanization. It's disregard for reality and for people. In order to preserve some onanistic, circular system of belief which geopolitial functions (such as "grow and multiply in order to add power to our clan") have long lost their object. You're a wheel spinning in the void, incapable to understand its original purpose, for the sole remaining benefit of flattering your collective in-group out-group vanity.

It would be simply amusing if it was about physical objects. But the fact that there are actual human experiences at stake, the fact that your views toy with other people's real (and unique lives) make you an extremely bad person. But protected by a system of belief that requires to be locked as tightly as possible in order to prevent this realisation.

Fortunately, you are a minority. And the world's standards and mankind's self-awareness evolve despite of you. I'd rejoice about the distress it causes (or will cause) to you, if there wasn't something sad to pointless, ultimately self-inflicted distress. All it would take to lift it is, well, empathy, intelligence and good will.

But there are two kinds of harmfully ignorant people. Two kinds of "racists" (in the general sense of prejudices against human groups). There are good people, who, when presented with reasons to respect the object of their loathing, take it as good news. "Oh, I though these [homosexuals, jews, blacks, muslims, trans, natives, migrants, redhead, etc] were monsters, what a relief to realise I was disliking them wrongly and we are all the same on all the aspects that matter morally". And there are those who stay in denial, because this contempt is its own reward. Those for whom the rehumanization of others would be bad news. They need [homosexuals, jews, blacks, muslims, trans, natives, migrants, redhead, etc] to be monsters, because they need an object towards which to indulge in the feelings that monstrosity legtimizes. As if evil individuals didn't provide enough opportunites, they need human groups, recognisable through arbitrary collective traits (passports, color, language, religion, sexuality) in contrast to which to valorize their own (often just as imaginary) group.

This is the only real moral difference between humans. And it has nothing to do with sexuality, ethnicity, religion or phenotypes. It's a transversal difference, running through any human group. And that is why you being a bad person has nothing to do with you being a catholic, or any collective identities through which you -or others- define yourself. It has only to do with what you, as an individual, opt to make of these identities, and why.

This thread has been more informative about you as a person than about any human collectivity.
 

Eacaraxe

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If you consider this to be a full explanation...
In lieu of completely wasting my time making my own argument that'll irrevocably fall on deaf ears, now that this thread's been well and truly shat upon, I retort with only this.

 
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tstorm823

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Firstly, that homosexuality is always, and only, lust. Am I to understand, then, that all romantic or sexual activity that doesn't aim at procreation is also always and only lust, and therefore also "intrinsic moral evil"?
Yes.
And therefore, it follows from this that an infertile person wishing to have a relationship and/or sex also has a "tendency towards intrinsic moral evil". Can I get you to apply the same wording to infertile people and those who are past menopause?
You're being too narrow. Even if a perfectly fertile, heterosexual couple begin a sexual relationship, if their intention is to not procreate, that is still a significant dedication of their life to the singular end of physical gratification.
And you are a coward. Because in face of a homosexual, you avoid the implications of what you are saying. By answering "lust is a sin" to "is homosexuality evil" (and by the principle of implicit relevancy) you let your interlocutor infer "therefore homosexuality is evil" without saying to their face "you are evil".
I have already done that. I did not shy away. To be specific, I did not say "you are evil", because that is not the accurate statement. It is "you have a natural tendency toward committing evil acts", which is true of literally everyone to ever exist but Jesus and Mary. I have no hesitancy to look you straight in the eye and tell you that you are tempted by evil. I don't need to know a single specific thing about you to confidently say that to your face.

The rest of your analysis is comically silly. You're trying to dig out my secret psychological motivations as though I'm not sitting here typing out my beliefs for you.