Possible consequences of self-insert in anime and the audience

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Okay, this is another thread that will probably get me put in the firing range but I do want to talk about a topic that i've been wondering for a while.

I was prompted to talk about the effect of self-insert on anime after reading this week's Answerman [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2014-10-24/.80264] on ANN. The answer to the second question had two statements that caught my eye.

1. that Tweens look for anime because the characters were cool and intriguing and that they subconsciously self-inserted themselves into the shows either to explore the world and be stronger or to relive youth

2. that the vast majority of anime hits in the Western world are appealing due to the self-insert.

This made me want to ask what effect that self-insert has on anime and it's audience. I make it no secret that I hate self-insert and find it to be degrading to both the themes and writing quality of anime as a whole. At the same time though, it seems that self-insert has enabled anime to spread within the western world and appeal to a new generations of teens.

This has lead me to believe that there are two major anime demographics: those who watch for the self-insert element and those who watch for narratives and themes almost as an reaction to the former demographic.

So I would like to ask the small anime community here two questions: "Do you think that self-insert has degraded anime's quality or simply has no effect?" and "Do you think that self-insert has caused a segmentation of the audience?"

 

[Slitzkin]

I guess I used to do this as a kid when I had an overactive imagination and I daydreamed about travelling the world and catching pokemon. But I can't say these days I sit around daydreaming about being eaten by a titan or losing an arm and leg due to poor understanding of alchemy.

 

[WindKnight]

What is self-inserting? If it's what I think it is, is that even physically possible? Mind you, I suppose anime doesn't have to stick to the usual rules of whether something is physically possible.

Imagining yourself in the place of the main character.

This is generally why most Harem leads are so bland - your not supposed to care about him, but see yourself in his place... and why most harems will have at least five women, each falling into a neatly defined category, so, like, your not focusing on the idea of getting into hot group sex, but picking out which one is most your type, and the one you'd want to get with.

 

[EternallyBored]

What is self-inserting? If it's what I think it is, is that even physically possible? Mind you, I suppose anime doesn't have to stick to the usual rules of whether something is physically possible.

self-insertion is a writing trope where a character in a work is either directly an avatar for the writer, or a thinly-veiled puppet for the writers views and desires. Basically a self-insert is when the writer inserts themselves as a character in the story.

Also sometimes used interchangeably with the concept of Mary Sues.

 

[Scarim Coral]

Well I used to do it as a kid (come on! Who else wanted to be like Ash or a Pokemon trainer?) but not anymore since I kind of grown out of it or am I not watching the right anime where the main character is 27 year old and has a part time job?

Honestly I abit confused at which animes is suppose to be "self-inserted" other than the kid anime like Pokemon since clearly I don't want to be a muscular adn silent teen like Jotaro from Jojo's Bizzare Character or a skimpy clad teenage badass girl who want vengence like Ryoko from Kill La Kill?

 

[Rahkshi500]

If you want my thoughts, self-insert is just like any other tool in storytelling: it can either end up good, or end up bad. Honestly, almost every fictional protagonist in any medium has a degree of a self-insert element in them, because those protagonists, whether one likes it or not, are a fantasy for certain people, depending on what the protagonist is written to be like. So unless you're intentionally trying to go out of your way to write a protagonist that is completely disconnected from the audience, there's always going to be a degree of self-insert in that protagonist, no matter how much you wanna focus on the themes and narratives. And honestly, I don't believe that both have to be mutually exclusive. I don't consider self-insert to be inherently bad, because not only can it allow people to be able to project themselves into a setting that's separate from the real world, but can also validate parts of themselves as well as being able to have some introspective and have them think about things that they didn't know before. There are characters out there that do have self-insert elements in them, but are still able to be their own characters, and instead of being detrimental to the themes and narrative, can instead actually validate them. So no, I don't consider it bad as you do. It's just a tool like any other element in storytelling; it all depends on how you use it.

 

[Spider RedNight]

Like others, I used to like self-inserting and that's one thing I've grown to love about video games; it's essentially a way to put myself in the game.

Anime, however... Most anime nowadays don't have self-inserts - at least, they try not to while their characters end up bland and unrelatable anyway - but if that's what people want to do, I say have at it.

I don't self-insert anymore as I've matured but I DO still like characters from the media that "emulate" a piece of my personality. I think self-inserts are just that to an exaggerated degree where they try to emulate all the characteristics that an individual wants to feel from a certain anime so to someone looking for that escapism, they can fill themselves in and for others... they either enjoy the anime on its own or they don't.

HOWEVER, there's always a limit; if a kid goes around hurting people or murder or bullying or whatever then claiming "but that's what I'd do if I were in Attack on Titan!" THEN we got a problem.

 

[Super Cyborg]

From what I learned from the other posts, I would say it has its place. Like anything, you don't want to have to much of it. If 90% of all anime was Shonen, then that would be a problem. I haven't been watching much anime lately, but if self-insert characters are becoming the norm, then I would say that's a problem. If not, then as long as it's overall good and/or just there to appeal to certain audiences, then that's fine.

Lately I like to insert myself into certain series, but as my own character that may or may not affect the overall story/world. I like to imagine having my own crew and powers in One Piece, but I don't pretend that I am Luffy or Franky. There were times in JoJo where I would be a random character with certain powers as well. It all just depends on the series.

 

[[Kira Must Die]]

Can't you like both, though?

These are both different means of entertainment. It depends on what you're in the mood for, and I don't see one being of lesser value than the other.

For instance, I'm gonna use magical girl shows as an example; Sailor Moon is based on a young girl's light fantasy of having magical powers to fight evil. It's a form of escapism that gives us a sort of self-gratification. It gives us the satisfaction of being something that we can't. A naive thought, but a harmless one. We all have these moments in our lives where we wish we were someone or somewhere else, or for a moment to escape reality, hell it's one of the reasons why we play games and watch movies in the first place. It doesn't extend to only childhood or teen years, either, as even adults can feel that way.

Then you get to Madoka Magica, which is based on dark realities, showing us what a situation like that can really do to a young girl, and what that can turn them into. It's the opposite of the former, as we're not escaping reality and instead are forced to face it, thus giving us a better understanding of what it means to be human, and teaching us more about ourselves.

However, both of these are simply human nature, and I feel shunning either one is unhealthy.

Although it's safe to say not all fantasies should be made into an anime, or at least have there place somewhere else, if you know what I mean.

Now, does this excuse bad writing? No, but I feel as though a shift in expectation is needed. I'm a big slice of life fan, and I consider slice of life to be self-insert fantasy, but I don't go into slice of life with the same expectations as I would a straight forward narrative story. Instead I base my enjoyment on whether or not I wanna be in this setting, whether I want to be with these people, and in some cases whether or not I feel content, relaxed, and not too stressed. There are slice of life shows that do this well, and ones that don't. I love K-ON!, Clannad, and Lucky Star, but I hate Working!! (the anime, not... you know... working)

In Sword Art Online's case, It's the same. Kirito is very much the type of character I tend to play my games as, the lone badass that overcomes any obstacle that crosses his path, which is why I don't have a problem with him, in fact I find it satisfying seeing him win. If it were any other way I'd probably find the show to be a chore to sit through. It's why I did not care much for Accel World, which to me was a drag at times. The games they visit, even the death trap-y ones, are worlds that still look fun to be in, and the rest of the cast seem like cool people to hang with. I always felt atmosphere was one of the things SAO does right. I know some people are looking for something different out of it, but for me, going into it with that mindset, I found it to be an enjoyable time.

 

[iLikeHippos]

You forgot the demographic that just watch for the tits. Pretty sure it holds the majority.

But honestly, I doubt any anime is created for the point of self-insertion; it's merely a by-product from the fans of the show and their personal dedication.
For example, I love Hunter x Hunter, and so does a friend I know. Because of my fascination, I thought up my own character that would represent me really well and would kick ass in his own way. My friend, however, didn't even give self-insertion a thought - and she was just as pumped as me a lot of the time in the series (oh my god, Greed Island near the ending... O.O).
And just the same, I wouldn't care for self-insertion in Dragonball Z, while a lot of other people really would. And yet, we'd both watch an equal amount of episodes, because it is what it is.

In short, I think that claim is a delusion of what truly defines quality of anime.

 

[Rellik San]

Man... Anime has got complicated in the past 10 years.

When I got into it, it's because it was cool, the fight scenes were cool, they showed blood, the story was cool it didn't talk down to me as a kid, the giant robots were cool because giant robots are cool and most importantly, the art style was cool because (thanks mainly to Sunbows action cartoons, like Visionaries etc. (I was about 8 or 9... so we're talking really around '95 - '96 when I got into it).

For me it wasn't about self insertion, even with Harem anime like Tenchi Muyo! (permanent top 5 resident) I never saw myself as the lead character, I was an introverted kid, I was tall, skinny, had long hair, liked heavy metal and Judge Dredd comics... anime didn't represent me, but it represented to me some cool ideas and visuals.

I think self insertion is another thing that's more of a modern trend not just in anime, but in other shows. They project the ideal of what it is to be a person of that age, in effect, it's wish fulfilment for the Facebook and MMO generation... or maybe what happens when people like me get to make shows they want and it's about the people they wish they could be.

That said don't get me wrong, I'd love to be a bad ass like Alucard from Hellsing or Kamina from Gurren Lagan like that, but I know I'm not that cool and will never be that cool by trying to emulate them.

But is it bad writing? Well that depends, it's certainly a common trope these days, but is it bad? Well that's really down the show writers skill isn't it?

 

[Fox12]

Okay, this is another thread that will probably get me put in the firing range but I do want to talk about a topic that i've been wondering for a while.

I was prompted to talk about the effect of self-insert on anime after reading this week's Answerman [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2014-10-24/.80264] on ANN. The answer to the second question had two statements that caught my eye.

1. that Tweens look for anime because the characters were cool and intriguing and that they subconsciously self-inserted themselves into the shows either to explore the world and be stronger or to relive youth

2. that the vast majority of anime hits in the Western world are appealing due to the self-insert.

This made me want to ask what effect that self-insert has on anime and it's audience. I make it no secret that I hate self-insert and find it to be degrading to both the themes and writing quality of anime as a whole. At the same time though, it seems that self-insert has enabled anime to spread within the western world and appeal to a new generations of teens.

This has lead me to believe that there are two major anime demographics: those who watch for the self-insert element and those who watch for narratives and themes almost as an reaction to the former demographic.

So I would like to ask the small anime community here two questions: "Do you think that self-insert has degraded anime's quality or simply has no effect?" and "Do you think that self-insert has caused a segmentation of the audience?"

I would like a little clarification. Are we talking about the writer inserting themselves into the story through an avatar, or are we talking about a shallow protagonist that the audience can project themselves onto?

Personally I hate both, but the first one can work if it's handled with care. EVA felt like this sometimes, but Shinji isn't really likable. He's kind of an ugly deconstruction of both the author and the Otaku culture as a whole, and it definitely felt like the author was working out some problems through him. Usually I hate it, though. It was one of the main reason I despised the Great Gatsby.

As for the second, it's never a good thing in film or literature. It can be done well in games, if the writer is trying to create dialogue with the player and not establish a character. Even then, though, I frown on silent protagonists. Power fantasy characters are never good, period.

Typically I want a strong narrative and good characters who are different than me, so I frown on both.

 

[Rellik San]

]
In Sword Art Online's case, It's the same. Kirito is very much the type of character I tend to play my games as, the lone badass that overcomes any obstacle that crosses his path, which is why I don't have a problem with him, in fact I find it satisfying seeing him win. If it were any other way I'd probably find the show to be a chore to sit through.

I've not seen Sword Art Online, but can I take a stab?

Kirito is not only a lone wolf whom accomplishes feats far beyond his peers, he's also a haunted, quiet and introspective bad ass, who when is defeated by someone it's a big "OH SHIT! THIS JUST GOT REAL MOMENT!" he seems conceited and unwilling to co-operate but he's not really a bad guy?

I hope not. That kind of thing has the opposite effect on me, if a character is a powerful badass I prefer to see them revel in it, enjoy the conflict, they love the fight, they are what I call the "Fun Bad Ass" (Again Kamina and Alucard are perfect examples), but it's never at the behest of "OMGZ BESERKER MODE ACTIVE NOW! HOW WE STOP HIM?".

I also don't mind a quiet bad ass, the guy with the sharp grin who hangs back until he's obviously needed (Soul from Soul Eater, Roy Mustang), he might be haunted or introspective, but it rarely shows, he's just happy to tag along and bail everyone out, often much to the chagrin of others... and he may tease them about it, but it's never in a nasty way unless it's to show how over their heads the MC's are.

I guess it's just if you watch Anime for so long you fatigued on certain character types. Don't get me wrong, it's fine if you like them that way, I'm just giving examples really of why "Badass is pretty cool guy he/she doesn't afraid of anything" isn't as character descriptive as you may think.

 

[Ratty]

Well I used to do it as a kid (come on! Who else wanted to be like Ash or a Pokemon trainer?)

Not me, I always wanted to join Team Rocket. So give up now or prepare to fight!

Being able to insert yourself into the hero's (or villain's, for that matter) place has always been a big part of entertainment and escapism. That's why you see women and non-cis het/non-white men want more and more positive representation in the media, to see themselves reflected in it. True the degree to which you're able to imagine yourself as part of the scenario diminishes as you get older, but that element is always there. So if anime is being made with this explicit intention this says more about the audience, or the creator's expectations of that audience, than anything else.
.
.
.
*Blasts off Agaaaaaaiiinnn!*

 

[CpT_x_Killsteal]

So I would like to ask the small anime community here two questions: "Do you think that self-insert has degraded anime's quality or simply has no effect?" and "Do you think that self-insert has caused a segmentation of the audience?"

When you say anime's quality, what do you mean? Does it drawback from the anime itself? Or does it negatively effect anime as a whole?
The question here is kind of confusing.

1a. I don't think it necessarily draws back from the anime itself, as long as the show doesn't pretend it isn't a self-insert anime. HotD did this really well, with a not very interesting male lead, but some animes are blatantly self-insert unsatisfying porn that pretend to be otherwise. This is when it becomes a drawback (imo). So not necessarily.

1b. Does it drawback from anime as a whole? No. There's a market for it, and lonely people / kids like it. It doesn't NEED artistic merit, or an interesting story. The person who or group who wrote the story like it, other people like it, so it keeps selling and the demographic that enjoys these types of anime are satisfied. So no.

2. Eh, not really. If people can't look past this one "trope", then I'm surprised they're open-minded enough to be watching anime in the first place. It's also unlikely that people who watch self-insert animes frequently aren't gonna watch non-self-insert animes. So I guess the answer is no

 

[Pirate Of PC Master race]

I believe that there is no right way to enjoy any media - anime included.
In fact, I fail to see how this is my problem at all. Anime is not for everyone, and all(as in, ALL) anime is not for everyone.

So in short, I don't care. As long as people don't talk about how I enjoy things.

Spoiler

Edit: Almost forgot to add. I am pretty sure that (so-called)quality dropped about two decades ago, but if it didn't back then, it would have by now. You wouldn't feel a thing.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

Okay, this is another thread that will probably get me put in the firing range but I do want to talk about a topic that i've been wondering for a while.

I was prompted to talk about the effect of self-insert on anime after reading this week's Answerman [https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/answerman/2014-10-24/.80264] on ANN. The answer to the second question had two statements that caught my eye.

1. that Tweens look for anime because the characters were cool and intriguing and that they subconsciously self-inserted themselves into the shows either to explore the world and be stronger or to relive youth

2. that the vast majority of anime hits in the Western world are appealing due to the self-insert.

This made me want to ask what effect that self-insert has on anime and it's audience. I make it no secret that I hate self-insert and find it to be degrading to both the themes and writing quality of anime as a whole. At the same time though, it seems that self-insert has enabled anime to spread within the western world and appeal to a new generations of teens.

This has lead me to believe that there are two major anime demographics: those who watch for the self-insert element and those who watch for narratives and themes almost as an reaction to the former demographic.

So I would like to ask the small anime community here two questions: "Do you think that self-insert has degraded anime's quality or simply has no effect?" and "Do you think that self-insert has caused a segmentation of the audience?"

I would like a little clarification. Are we talking about the writer inserting themselves into the story through an avatar, or are we talking about a shallow protagonist that the audience can project themselves onto?

Personally I hate both, but the first one can work if it's handled with care. EVA felt like this sometimes, but Shinji isn't really likable. He's kind of an ugly deconstruction of both the author and the Otaku culture as a whole, and it definitely felt like the author was working out some problems through him. Usually I hate it, though. It was one of the main reason I despised the Great Gatsby.

As for the second, it's never a good thing in film or literature. It can be done well in games, if the writer is trying to create dialogue with the player and not establish a character. Even then, though, I frown on silent protagonists. Power fantasy characters are never good, period.

Typically I want a strong narrative and good characters who are different than me, so I frown on both.

The second, defiantly the second

I like Shinji's deconstructionist element, especially of mecha pilots at the time, though I can understand why people will hate it but the second leads to boring harem lead after overpowered action lead after milquetoast fools.

It really pisses me off when Kirito gets a lot of attention and love despite his overpowered nature and someone like Kiritsugu Emiya who while powerful has fatal flaws and a tragic backstory are not set as the standard often enough.

Good god even God Almighty Kira Yamato got his butt handed to him a few times in Seed, this is getting absurd

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

You forgot the demographic that just watch for the tits. Pretty sure it holds the majority.

But honestly, I doubt any anime is created for the point of self-insertion; it's merely a by-product from the fans of the show and their personal dedication.
For example, I love Hunter x Hunter, and so does a friend I know. Because of my fascination, I thought up my own character that would represent me really well and would kick ass in his own way. My friend, however, didn't even give self-insertion a thought - and she was just as pumped as me a lot of the time in the series (oh my god, Greed Island near the ending... O.O).
And just the same, I wouldn't care for self-insertion in Dragonball Z, while a lot of other people really would. And yet, we'd both watch an equal amount of episodes, because it is what it is.

In short, I think that claim is a delusion of what truly defines quality of anime.

If I use the definition of quality revolving around the lines of direction, writing, character dynamics and themes, so many animes fall flat that I want to punch something. Even the "worst" show I would consider recommending, Toaru Majutsu no Index, has a fascinating world, memorable side characters with defined arcs, and a slight theme of exploring heroism all presented in an over the top powers fest.

I've mentioned Sword Art Online a few times and how we are supposed to project onto Kirito but he is so Gary Sue that it's infuriating. The same goes for harem shows; give us a guy with a spine. I get that having 5 girls chasing after you in real life would not be the oh so great situation as seen in anime but dude, even the most self-controlled person has a libido, do something.

Also, I don't buy that just because a show's main focus is tits that I should not care about self-insert elements or bad writing. As I've said before in my other threads, eroticism and good writing are not mutually exclusive. If I don't care about your characters, I don't care about them having contrived sexual tension or getting together.