Power levels of characters and their inherent unimportance

[mduncan50]

Man, I can hear the howls of the ultra-right wing conservatives now, of how the "libtards" have turned an American icon into a pervert. I almost want this to happen just to see it. But seriously, I see no reason for it. It's silly to me to take a character that has been straight for a half a century and just say they are gay now, even if DC does seem to like rebooting everyone every couple of years.

While I'm not saying DC should do it, I would note that Wonder Woman has had homoerotic undertones since long before I was born.

...wonder why I liked her so much growing up. >.>

Granted, there were also a lot of shots with her being tied up and something phallic beng pointed at her crotch, so I'm not saying SHE IS CLEARLY GAY AND DON'T TELL ME OTHERWISE.

Just that, you know, it wouldn't exactly be out of left field.

Hmm, maybe so. I will admit that I haven't read a ton of Wonder Woman's comics, so the majority of my experience with her usually comes from cross-overs (often with hints of wanting Supes) and the old TV show, which had her love interest in nearly every episode. So maybe season 1 of Xena level of subtext? As opposed to like season 4 of Xena level of bolded and capitalized text?

 

[DefunctTheory]

Spoiler

Man, I can hear the howls of the ultra-right wing conservatives now, of how the "libtards" have turned an American icon into a pervert. I almost want this to happen just to see it. But seriously, I see no reason for it. It's silly to me to take a character that has been straight for a half a century and just say they are gay now, even if DC does seem to like rebooting everyone every couple of years.

While I'm not saying DC should do it, I would note that Wonder Woman has had homoerotic undertones since long before I was born.

...wonder why I liked her so much growing up. >.>

Granted, there were also a lot of shots with her being tied up and something phallic beng pointed at her crotch, so I'm not saying SHE IS CLEARLY GAY AND DON'T TELL ME OTHERWISE.

Just that, you know, it wouldn't exactly be out of left field.

Hmm, maybe so. I will admit that I haven't read a ton of Wonder Woman's comics, so the majority of my experience with her usually comes from cross-overs (often with hints of wanting Supes) and the old TV show, which had her love interest in nearly every episode. So maybe season 1 of Xena level of subtext? As opposed to like season 4 of Xena level of bolded and capitalized text?

We all apply our favorite versions of a character when it comes to 'whats right.'

I know she's been, in canon, put with spies, soldiers, Superman, hinted at being a lesbian... but I'm a slave to the DCAU. Wonder Woman's not a lesbian, she's in a love spiral with Bruce Wayne, and anyone or anything that says otherwise is wrong!

 

[Something Amyss]

Hmm, maybe so. I will admit that I haven't read a ton of Wonder Woman's comics, so the majority of my experience with her usually comes from cross-overs (often with hints of wanting Supes) and the old TV show, which had her love interest in nearly every episode. So maybe season 1 of Xena level of subtext? As opposed to like season 4 of Xena level of bolded and capitalized text?

Unfortunately, I've never really watched Xena. Like, I'm all for lesbian undertones (or overtones, or just tones), but...I really didn't like Hercules, so when I heard there was a spinoff, I said "pass."

I should correct this one of these days, but there are so many shows I "should" watch and so little time where I'm actually paying attention.

 

[mduncan50]

Hmm, maybe so. I will admit that I haven't read a ton of Wonder Woman's comics, so the majority of my experience with her usually comes from cross-overs (often with hints of wanting Supes) and the old TV show, which had her love interest in nearly every episode. So maybe season 1 of Xena level of subtext? As opposed to like season 4 of Xena level of bolded and capitalized text?

Unfortunately, I've never really watched Xena. Like, I'm all for lesbian undertones (or overtones, or just tones), but...I really didn't like Hercules, so when I heard there was a spinoff, I said "pass."

I should correct this one of these days, but there are so many shows I "should" watch and so little time where I'm actually paying attention.

I personally love Sorbo's Hercules, but I totally get why it's not everyone's cup of tea. As far as Xena goes, the first season is pretty much Hercules with a bit of an edge, but after that the stories get much darker and more complicated.

 

[Something Amyss]

I personally love Sorbo's Hercules, but I totally get why it's not everyone's cup of tea. As far as Xena goes, the first season is pretty much Hercules with a bit of an edge, but after that the stories get much darker and more complicated.

Yeah, I hear it grew into its own, which is pretty cool. I don't hate Hercules, but it certainly wasn't something I was big on, so a spinoff seemed like it'd be more of the same.

Anyway, I got sort of distracted by that point. I haven't read WW as like, a continuous line through my life or anything, but the amount of homoerotic subtext seems to vary heavily by writer. And god knows, I probably didn't pick up on it all when I was younger and read more of her stuff. I mean, I just watched the Nostalgia Chick video on She-Rah (which, ironically, it was my brother who was a fan of the show), and HOLY CRAP so much just went over my head.

I actually sort of wonder if this isn't basically an unintended side effect of writing ostensibly strong female characters (debatable for She-Rah, but Wonder Woman's had some awesome runs when she's not just the gal both Bruce and Clark want to bang) in a current environment, because strong women are often already viewed as gay, even in 2016. Throw in things like bondage, or an island of all women....

Still he is no stronger than an ant compared to the Abrahamic Gods, but that is basically the author of the work.

If we're going to go down this route, keep in mind that Biblically, Yahweh needs to cheat at wrestling to beat a 60 year old man (age approximate, point remains), and cannot beat armies if their chariots are made of iron. Superman is therefore stronger and his one weakness is nowhere near as common.

But the point was never to be so literal.

Still why does it matter so much who is stronger than who in comic books? That does not mean they are a good character at all.

I don't think anyone's arguing they were good characters based on strength.

 

[Cicada 5]

TLR the fight between batman and superman was never fought with fists and kryptonite, it was fought with comics sold and the the level of enjoyment you got from each character.

You've just described every single thing every put into a comic book, ever.

Except for Wonder Woman's books. Apparently, you couldn't sell those if they came with a free hand job and a real life replica of Power Girl's breast, so I'm sure they've thrown some non-selling point stuff in there just for the hell of it.

For a while now I've felt that if they moved Wonder Woman to Vertigo and played up the Lesbian BDSM angle they might increase her sales substantially. Given the origins/creator this makes sense, and I've also noticed we live in another era of sexual liberation (this time for alternate lifestyles) and "Sunstone" has not only seen print but is apparently going on it's 5th volume, albeit the actual adult content in that is minimal (though it does exist). Who knows, they might even get a chance at a Hugo award nowadays.

Besides with all the character modification going on Wonder Woman is perhaps the #1 candidate to be a lesbian with occasional bi- moments for special men. In her case it doesn't even require much retconning.

Well, there's the Wonder Woman: Earth One book by Grant Morrison if that's what you're interested in. It does have Amazons in lesbian relationships and BDSM. I thought it was okay personally. I preferred Legend of Wonder Woman and Rucka's Wonder Woman run.

 

[Cicada 5]

I personally love Sorbo's Hercules, but I totally get why it's not everyone's cup of tea. As far as Xena goes, the first season is pretty much Hercules with a bit of an edge, but after that the stories get much darker and more complicated.

Yeah, I hear it grew into its own, which is pretty cool. I don't hate Hercules, but it certainly wasn't something I was big on, so a spinoff seemed like it'd be more of the same.

Anyway, I got sort of distracted by that point. I haven't read WW as like, a continuous line through my life or anything, but the amount of homoerotic subtext seems to vary heavily by writer. And god knows, I probably didn't pick up on it all when I was younger and read more of her stuff. I mean, I just watched the Nostalgia Chick video on She-Rah (which, ironically, it was my brother who was a fan of the show), and HOLY CRAP so much just went over my head.

I actually sort of wonder if this isn't basically an unintended side effect of writing ostensibly strong female characters (debatable for She-Rah, but Wonder Woman's had some awesome runs when she's not just the gal both Bruce and Clark want to bang) in a current environment, because strong women are often already viewed as gay, even in 2016. Throw in things like bondage, or an island of all women....

Still he is no stronger than an ant compared to the Abrahamic Gods, but that is basically the author of the work.

A bit unrelated but with the upcoming Wonder Woman movie coming up, I wonder if they'll have Hercules be a villain in the fil or in following sequels as he's been one for Wonder Woman for the majority of her history.

If we're going to go down this route, keep in mind that Biblically, Yahweh needs to cheat at wrestling to beat a 60 year old man (age approximate, point remains), and cannot beat armies if their chariots are made of iron. Superman is therefore stronger and his one weakness is nowhere near as common.

But the point was never to be so literal.

Still why does it matter so much who is stronger than who in comic books? That does not mean they are a good character at all.

I don't think anyone's arguing they were good characters based on strength.

 

[DoPo]

Still why does it matter so much who is stronger than who in comic books? That does not mean they are a good character at all.

I don't think anyone's arguing they were good characters based on strength.

In fact, I am fairly sure that this entire thread was made to point out that strength wasn't what determined if a character is good or not.

 

[Lieju]

What matters is a good and entertaining fight. It can be entertaining because the backstory and emotions involved are so good, or just pure fanservice fight that looks cool and has clever twists. For example I'd love a good Spider-man vs Batman fight since I think it would make for an entertaining battle where the writer and artist could use all these possible scenarios and gadgets. I don't care which one would win at all, I just think it would have potential to be a cool fight.

(I don't thinkwe have ever seen that in non-fanworks? I know thereis a Spiderman vs Superman comic, which was disappointingly boring and the Lex/Doc Ock team up was the highlight of the comic for me)

Superman could literally rule the world or destroy it. Instead, he chooses to help it. That's the point of interest for me. This is a guy who could quite literally get away with murder...hell, get away with genocide, and he opts to do the right thing. I would actually argue in Superman's case that being crazy OP needs nerf nao is one of his major character traits. It's what sets apart Supes from other characters. I think the punchups with Batman undermine both characters. And yeah, as far as comic purchases go, I'm probably in the minority.

But I'm certianly not alone. People do voice this a lot, and for good reason. It breaks suspension of disbelief, it devalues the characters, etc. It's like Worf being a badass on paper, but getting constantly knocked around. It makes Klingons look like they're made of tissue paper. It kills my suspension of disbelief and worse...I don't find it fun.

Hmm,yes,I agree but I also don't know how well a character like that would fit in an ongoing comic book. Ironically I tend to only find superman interesting when he is in a very un-superhero kind of stories where fights are not the focus or totally nonexistant(or for silver age WTF superdickery)

Dunno,something like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run for Superman?

I know there was that fairly recent run where he went to walk around the US but from what I've seen it was not good.
But I guess in general I like Superman best in very small dozes.

 

[Something Amyss]

In fact, I am fairly sure that this entire thread was made to point out that strength wasn't what determined if a character is good or not.

Indeed.

It was a bizarre comment is all.

(I don't thinkwe have ever seen that in non-fanworks? I know thereis a Spiderman vs Superman comic, which was disappointingly boring and the Lex/Doc Ock team up was the highlight of the comic for me)

Closest we came was a Batman/Spiderman crossover, TMK. It also highlights one of the big issues with a Batman/anyone crossover. IIRC, Batman punched out Carnage. Writers tend not to care about making these stories interesting or compelling, they care about making sure Batman is the awesomest guy ever!

Speaking of problems....

Hmm,yes,I agree but I also don't know how well a character like that would fit in an ongoing comic book. Ironically I tend to only find superman interesting when he is in a very un-superhero kind of stories where fights are not the focus or totally nonexistant(or for silver age WTF superdickery)

I always liked the idea that Superman's end goal isn't so much beating the bad guys as it is saving the people. Like, you can still focus on fights and provide him the moral challenge of keeping people from getting harmed. Basically, the exact opposite of the DCEU. >.> It's not even a unique convention, since Spider-Man often has to make "impossible" choices due to his own particular morality. But Supes is supposed to be the "save everyone" guy.

Dunno,something like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run for Superman?

I know there was that fairly recent run where he went to walk around the US but from what I've seen it was not good.
But I guess in general I like Superman best in very small dozes.

I've never read either Moore's run on Swamp Thing or the walkabout Superman did, but I did see Linkara cover the latter, and part of the problem is that they made Superman...kind of an idiot. There were some interesting moments, even in the review. Superman promises a woman that if he can't convince her not to kill herself, he won't stop her, essentially. I'm curious as to whether or not he would or even could actually let her jump to her death.

But it's also the series where Superman told kids that he had moved the problem, "over there" or something, and to let "over there worry about over there." Our hero! Superman being cool with drug dealers abusing kids as long as it doesn't happen on this one street corner. Sounds more like Daredevil or even Batman to me. What it doesn't sound like is truth and justice man.

I'm not the biggest Superman fan, but I'd be interested in seeing what a story like this could do. It's more in the execution of the story that people seemed to have a problem. And in my opinion, rightfully so.

 

[Zenja]

VS

I really want to see this fight. The best things about it are that neither have a particularly big fanbase so writing for the fans would probably only give Domino a slight edge since she at least has a resemblance of a fanbase. However, if done right the loss could do more for the story considering this would take place in the very niche X-Men part of the MCU so it really is negligible. I would love it if this fight were spread across 5-10 books in a story that takes place in the Mojoverse or has to do with the Mojoverse. Perhaps even in a Running Man style competition.

All I know is that I really would love to see what writers would do with this fight. WHat would be fun is if it was reoccurring to. This fight could seriously last forever and be extremely entertaining.

 

[circularlogic88]

I wish I could remember the article or interview, but I remember Akira Toriyama originally put power levels in Dragon Ball Z specifically to be deceptive and not a reliable measurement of one's power. It was a visual shorthand means of the villains to dismiss their opponents' power and abilities. Napa pretty much dismissed all of the Z warriors once he saw their power levels ( mind you, he wasn't wrong at how weak they were, worst they did was make him take off his top) but it was Vegeta who reasoned that they know how to hide their power levels and not to trust the scooter readings. Krillin of all people nearly bifurcated Napa with his (sighs) " destructo-disc" because he figured the attack was well below Krillin's abilities.

OT: a character's power or ability is is entirely dependent on who's writing the character and what the writer hopes to achieve by writing the characters the way he or she chooses to.

Its why I can't really get upset when the results for death battles show superman the victor over goku. They're both stupidly over powered characters and the results are based on the author's interpretations and biases towards both characters.

 

[Cicada 5]

What matters is a good and entertaining fight. It can be entertaining because the backstory and emotions involved are so good, or just pure fanservice fight that looks cool and has clever twists. For example I'd love a good Spider-man vs Batman fight since I think it would make for an entertaining battle where the writer and artist could use all these possible scenarios and gadgets. I don't care which one would win at all, I just think it would have potential to be a cool fight.

(I don't thinkwe have ever seen that in non-fanworks? I know thereis a Spiderman vs Superman comic, which was disappointingly boring and the Lex/Doc Ock team up was the highlight of the comic for me)

Superman could literally rule the world or destroy it. Instead, he chooses to help it. That's the point of interest for me. This is a guy who could quite literally get away with murder...hell, get away with genocide, and he opts to do the right thing. I would actually argue in Superman's case that being crazy OP needs nerf nao is one of his major character traits. It's what sets apart Supes from other characters. I think the punchups with Batman undermine both characters. And yeah, as far as comic purchases go, I'm probably in the minority.

But I'm certianly not alone. People do voice this a lot, and for good reason. It breaks suspension of disbelief, it devalues the characters, etc. It's like Worf being a badass on paper, but getting constantly knocked around. It makes Klingons look like they're made of tissue paper. It kills my suspension of disbelief and worse...I don't find it fun.

Hmm,yes,I agree but I also don't know how well a character like that would fit in an ongoing comic book. Ironically I tend to only find superman interesting when he is in a very un-superhero kind of stories where fights are not the focus or totally nonexistant(or for silver age WTF superdickery)

Dunno,something like Alan Moore's Swamp Thing run for Superman?

I know there was that fairly recent run where he went to walk around the US but from what I've seen it was not good.
But I guess in general I like Superman best in very small dozes.

Honestly the whole "Superman could rule the world if he turned bad" doesn't stand up to scrutiny. There are numerous beings that can match if not surpass him in power in the DCU and that's even ignoring that humans do have defenses against him. Even in Injustice, the only reason what he does lasts so long is because several other heroes take leave of their senses and join him instead of putting him down like the mad animal he's become.