Probably not getting a minimum wage hike.

Specter Von Baren

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It's been well argued in many places that raising wages encourages people to shop locally more than big box stores.


Keeping wages low is how you keep Walmart in power in the middle of nowhere because I'll tell you right now, living in the middle of nowhere isn't really cheaper than living in a city. Funnily enough rent doesn't necessarily go down in smaller towns compared to larger ones, property taxes also aren't really linked with urbanization. What does influence living prices in an area is how much money is already there, which makes sense, you can't get blood from a rock. If people aren't pinching every penny, they'll be more likely to shop locally, which keeps their stores open to pay people to shop locally.
Who is more likely to be able to afford higher wages? A small store or a mega corporation?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
In precisely what way? Why?
Well, we have large swaths of the population that believe that there is a moral order to the world and vote as such. Meaning that they don't see someone like trump as getting his wealth illegitimately, they see him having his wealth as him deserving of that wealth and that makes it moral. They also prefer local institutions, they think change should occur through them, through their church or their union and that federal government should have no say in the matter. They don't like it when 'outsiders' come in and tell them they need to change.
 

Seanchaidh

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Well, we have large swaths of the population that believe that there is a moral order to the world and vote as such. Meaning that they don't see someone like trump as getting his wealth illegitimately, they see him having his wealth as him deserving of that wealth and that makes it moral.
That doesn't really say anything about minimum wage. And how large are these 'swaths'?

They also prefer local institutions, they think change should occur through them, through their church or their union and that federal government should have no say in the matter. They don't like it when 'outsiders' come in and tell them they need to change.
Which is why 2/3 favor a federal $15 minimum wage?

 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
That doesn't really say anything about minimum wage. And how large are these 'swaths'?
Generally most areas that are rural. This is the divide we see between cities and rural areas. Take Portland, you have an extremely progressive city surrounded by pretty damn conservative rural areas.

Which is why 2/3 favor a federal $15 minimum wage?
That by itself is meaningless. Right now republicans in the senate oppose it and in the republican party the more moderate and liberal conservatives favor it, the conservative ones oppose it rather heavily.

Democrats support $15 an hour very heavily, but not 100% of them are in favor of it. In regards to Manchin, maybe his constituents makeup some of that group that aren't infavor of it. Keep in mind a progressive did primary against him and lost hard. His is a seat where you either have a conservative democrat or a republican.
 

tstorm823

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Democrats coming from Democratic stronghold cities where minimum wage is already $15 an hour push to apply their local policies nationwide just as all those Democratic strongholds actively lose huge numbers of their residents. In those cities, $15 an hour is barely enough to keep you not homeless anyways. In what world does it make sense for the locations with actual poverty issues, not arbitrary statistical poverty issues but "we can't afford food or housing" issues, to spread their existing policies to the rest of the country and act like they're solving problems.

Anyone advocating for a living wage and putting a fixed number on it across the board is full of crap, and just trying to sell you controversy.
 

Revnak

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Gonna point out again, when the real minimum wage was twice as high as it is now is when middle of nowhere America was going best. If any of you actual grew up in those places, you’d know it was with the arrival of the neoliberals and their minimum wage stagnation that those regions started suffering so terribly. Stop using them as a justification of your argument when their lived history is completely counter to your argument.
 

Revnak

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Who is more likely to be able to afford higher wages? A small store or a mega corporation?
There was an economy with much more space for small stores when the real minimum wage was twice as high as it is now.

Edit: y’know what, let’s work this out. Who makes a small business? Where do they come from? It’s not people who are already wealthy with a major stake in large businesses, but the employees of various businesses who think they could offer the same service better. It’s the restaurant manager or cook who thinks they could start their own. How do they start this business? Well, they definitely need more than a can-do attitude. They need money. Loans may exist, but for that they need property to hold for the loan to be approved in the first place, and in the aftermath of some failure the business will go to the bank and get pulled in to some amorphous big coronation anyway.

If you want small businesses you have to pay employees more.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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Gonna point out as well, Florida voted to raise their minimum wage to $15. Florida went to Trump, and the minimum wage hike was more popular than him. There were people voting for the wage hike who didn't even vote for a president.
 
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Schadrach

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What a stupid statement when something takes 60 votes.
...only because of the filibuster.

What they should do is try to change the rule that allows for the filibuster, then use the same procedure used in 2013 and 2017 to get around trying to filibuster that (the so called nuclear option), then having defeated the filibuster we can go back to passing things with majority votes.

In regards to Manchin, maybe his constituents makeup some of that group that aren't infavor of it. Keep in mind a progressive did primary against him and lost hard. His is a seat where you either have a conservative democrat or a republican.
FWIW, I voted against him in the primary.
 

tstorm823

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Gonna point out again, when the real minimum wage was twice as high as it is now is when middle of nowhere America was going best.
Correlation is not causation. Middle of nowhere was doing great with factory jobs that paid, and still pay, far over minimum wage, and many of those jobs disappeared. Coal miners were not minimum wage workers ever. Many of these areas are growing again with warehouse jobs that, you guessed it, pay more than $15 an hour.

I would not argue minimum wage is perfect as is, but "make minimum wage double federally and everything will be more awesome, especially rural areas" is absolute bullcrap.
 

Revnak

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Correlation is not causation. Middle of nowhere was doing great with factory jobs that paid, and still pay, far over minimum wage, and many of those jobs disappeared. Coal miners were not minimum wage workers ever. Many of these areas are growing again with warehouse jobs that, you guessed it, pay more than $15 an hour.

I would not argue minimum wage is perfect as is, but "make minimum wage double federally and everything will be more awesome, especially rural areas" is absolute bullcrap.
Please tell me where I said that? I was exclusively talking about correlation. My point is one thing, you can have a higher minimum wage and have better life in rural America, they are not even vaguely at odds. However, you are saying something else that is empirically false. Factory jobs and mining jobs have paid minimum wage, and it was originally fought for my unions of those workers. You’re falsifying history.
 

Trunkage

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Correlation is not causation. Middle of nowhere was doing great with factory jobs that paid, and still pay, far over minimum wage, and many of those jobs disappeared. Coal miners were not minimum wage workers ever. Many of these areas are growing again with warehouse jobs that, you guessed it, pay more than $15 an hour.

I would not argue minimum wage is perfect as is, but "make minimum wage double federally and everything will be more awesome, especially rural areas" is absolute bullcrap.
I remember when the US government changed the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment so they could ban demolitions becuase miners were having a dispute over low pay. It's almost a 100 years ago
 

crimson5pheonix

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I remember when the US government changed the interpretation of the 2nd Amendment so they could ban demolitions becuase miners were having a dispute over low pay. It's almost a 100 years ago
Oh that's the best way to get firearms legislation. The NRA got serious about asking for gun control when the Black Panthers set up to defend themselves.
 

tstorm823

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Please tell me where I said that? I was exclusively talking about correlation. My point is one thing, you can have a higher minimum wage and have better life in rural America, they are not even vaguely at odds. However, you are saying something else that is empirically false. Factory jobs and mining jobs have paid minimum wage, and it was originally fought for my unions of those workers. You’re falsifying history.
Now you're changing which part of history you're talking about. You're obviously not suggesting that middle of nowhere was simultaneously fighting against slave wages and doing the best it's ever done. The minimum wage was implemented in 1938, and you're all now talking about things that happened before 1938, as though it's a contradiction to what I've said.
 

Revnak

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Now you're changing which part of history you're talking about. You're obviously not suggesting that middle of nowhere was simultaneously fighting against slave wages and doing the best it's ever done. The minimum wage was implemented in 1938, and you're all now talking about things that happened before 1938, as though it's a contradiction to what I've said.
Yes, because you said coal miners never made that little. I’m pretty explicit there that I’m talking about two different periods, not conflating them.
 

tstorm823

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Yes, because you said coal miners never made that little. I’m pretty explicit there that I’m talking about two different periods, not conflating them.
That isn't what I said if you're trying to pick at my specific words. That also isn't what I meant in the context where my point was clearly "the middle of nowhere thrives by making more than minimum wage rather than depending on it". Stop trying to find ways to call me wrong and actually engage with the ideas.
 

Seanchaidh

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Keep in mind a progressive did primary against him and lost hard. His is a seat where you either have a conservative democrat or a republican.
He had a lot of advantages that don't really have anything to do with the popularity among voters of his political choices. This isn't a compelling point at all.
 
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