Probably not getting a minimum wage hike.

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
He had a lot of advantages that don't really have anything to do with the popularity among voters of his political choices. This isn't a compelling point at all.
Maybe, maybe not, but he still beat his progressive challenger by a lot. Look, in the end its better to have a moderate/conservative dem then a republican, if you want to change things then get more progressive democrats or independents to win republican seats.
 

Revnak

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That isn't what I said if you're trying to pick at my specific words. That also isn't what I meant in the context where my point was clearly "the middle of nowhere thrives by making more than minimum wage rather than depending on it". Stop trying to find ways to call me wrong and actually engage with the ideas.
On god the irony here given I never said “the middle of nowhere depends on a high minimum wage.” Just that there’s no reason to think it would hurt that region whatsoever.
 

Revnak

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Maybe, maybe not, but he still beat his progressive challenger by a lot. Look, in the end its better to have a moderate/conservative dem then a republican, if you want to change things then get more progressive democrats or independents to win republican seats.
God it’s like you’re just ignoring the whole ongoing democratic crisis that means such an approach is certainly going to be too slow, that such things have occurred recently, and that the Dems regularly sabotage attempts to accomplish what you’re talking about (Kentucky is an easy example).
 

tstorm823

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On god the irony here given I never said “the middle of nowhere depends on a high minimum wage.” Just that there’s no reason to think it would hurt that region whatsoever.
That's fine. I'll concede that to you. If it's alright with you, I'd be happy to agree that minimum wage changes would not likely hurt rural areas, but nor would it necessarily solve any of the current problems at all. Which is perfectly congruent with my original point, that the argument about setting minimum wage at specific higher or lower numbers across the board isn't trying to actually solves problems, it's just stirring up arguments for the sake of it. If you look at the areas of the country with the most homelessness and the most food insecurity, it's in places that already have minimum wage at or near $15, so a federal $15 minimum wage is going to change nothing for those people, unless I suppose they intend to move out of the cities and work at rural Walmarts.

I'm not going to claim to be such an expert to know exactly what minimum wage should be and where, but I'm politically savvy enough to understand that debate over it is just a political prop and nothing more.
 

Agema

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I'm not going to claim to be such an expert to know exactly what minimum wage should be and where, but I'm politically savvy enough to understand that debate over it is just a political prop and nothing more.
The minimum wage basically reflects the fact that businesses have been so successful at holding wages down that the workers have turned to the state to increase salaries for them.

This is because when people talk about supporting free markets and capitalism and stuff, what they really mean is empowering businesses and disempowering everyone else who might disagree with them.
 

Revnak

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That's fine. I'll concede that to you. If it's alright with you, I'd be happy to agree that minimum wage changes would not likely hurt rural areas, but nor would it necessarily solve any of the current problems at all. Which is perfectly congruent with my original point, that the argument about setting minimum wage at specific higher or lower numbers across the board isn't trying to actually solves problems, it's just stirring up arguments for the sake of it. If you look at the areas of the country with the most homelessness and the most food insecurity, it's in places that already have minimum wage at or near $15, so a federal $15 minimum wage is going to change nothing for those people, unless I suppose they intend to move out of the cities and work at rural Walmarts.

I'm not going to claim to be such an expert to know exactly what minimum wage should be and where, but I'm politically savvy enough to understand that debate over it is just a political prop and nothing more.
Cool
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
God it’s like you’re just ignoring the whole ongoing democratic crisis that means such an approach is certainly going to be too slow, that such things have occurred recently, and that the Dems regularly sabotage attempts to accomplish what you’re talking about (Kentucky is an easy example).
Wait, so are you saying the democratic establishment is sabotaging progressive candidates running against republicans in republican districts so there aren't more progressive democrats? Or are you saying that progressive candidates are losing primaries, cause then they should have primaried better.
 

Revnak

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Wait, so are you saying the democratic establishment is sabotaging progressive candidates running against republicans in republican districts so there aren't more progressive democrats? Or are you saying that progressive candidates are losing primaries, cause then they should have primaried better.
Both. And dear lord that is such a shallow understanding of what happened in Kentucky. A black activist popular with the state party was sidelined in favor of McGrath by the National party who received just mountains of support from the national party. It was probably the most heavily interfered in dem senate primary. Even with the utterly ridiculous amount of funding behind her campaign, McGrath barely won the primary and was destroyed in the general, with her ads potentially costing Biden Ohio, all to stop a popular black activist from facing off against McConnel (probably because he would’ve won a house seat in 2022 and the Dems hate black activists).
 

Worgen

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Both. And dear lord that is such a shallow understanding of what happened in Kentucky. A black activist popular with the state party was sidelined in favor of McGrath by the National party who received just mountains of support from the national party. It was probably the most heavily interfered in dem senate primary. Even with the utterly ridiculous amount of funding behind her campaign, McGrath barely won the primary and was destroyed in the general, with her ads potentially costing Biden Ohio, all to stop a popular black activist from facing off against McConnel (probably because he would’ve won a house seat in 2022 and the Dems hate black activists).
I see you forgot about the DNC's national push to try and get ex-military on the ballots. On paper McGrath looks like a really strong candidate in a state as conservative as Kentucky. She was a marine and the first woman to fly combat missions for the marine corps, 20 years of service and 89 combat missions. She did lose against Andy Barr but it was close enough that they probably thought she would already be a known name. Plus, this is against the turtle, hes had that seat since like the 80s, you run someone you think can win and won't scare the people so you run moderate. There's very little reason to think that Booker would have done better. Unless you have more info then I am finding. Keep in mind, losing by less then McGrath did is still losing and Booker didn't even win the primary. Doesn't matter that she suddenly got an influx of funding, she still had almost twice the funding than the turtle and she got destroyed.
 

Revnak

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I see you forgot about the DNC's national push to try and get ex-military on the ballots. On paper McGrath looks like a really strong candidate in a state as conservative as Kentucky. She was a marine and the first woman to fly combat missions for the marine corps, 20 years of service and 89 combat missions. She did lose against Andy Barr but it was close enough that they probably thought she would already be a known name. Plus, this is against the turtle, hes had that seat since like the 80s, you run someone you think can win and won't scare the people so you run moderate. There's very little reason to think that Booker would have done better. Unless you have more info then I am finding. Keep in mind, losing by less then McGrath did is still losing and Booker didn't even win the primary. Doesn't matter that she suddenly got an influx of funding, she still had almost twice the funding than the turtle and she got destroyed.
Maybe she lost to the Turtle because she sucks ass but narrowly beat Booker because outside of the community he had been standing alongside protesting the slaughter of nobody knew who he was as the entire Democratic establishment had thrown their weight behind an absolute farce of a strategy. An absolute farce of a strategy that probably lost the entire party Ohio, let alone hundreds of millions of dollars. Money doesn’t win elections, but fundraising is literally the only thing the Democratic establishment prioritizes. Progressives can’t win elections, but their policies out-poll everyone else. Maybe there is a fundamental error in how our political establishment functions and it is manifesting as our entire society careening into a chasm of violence and fascism while our politicians blame the victims for not voting right, for being personally morally reprehensible rather than subjects of a system destined to fail.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Maybe she lost to the Turtle because she sucks ass but narrowly beat Booker because outside of the community he had been standing alongside protesting the slaughter of nobody knew who he was as the entire Democratic establishment had thrown their weight behind an absolute farce of a strategy. An absolute farce of a strategy that probably lost the entire party Ohio, let alone hundreds of millions of dollars. Money doesn’t win elections, but fundraising is literally the only thing the Democratic establishment prioritizes. Progressives can’t win elections, but their policies out-poll everyone else. Maybe there is a fundamental error in how our political establishment functions and it is manifesting as our entire society careening into a chasm of violence and fascism while our politicians blame the victims for not voting right, for being personally morally reprehensible rather than subjects of a system destined to fail.
If money doesn't matter in elections then why didn't Booker win the primary? Oh, maybe he just wasn't as popular as McGrath was. You love a grand conspiracy when sometimes shit just happens. Also, progressive policies only win in polls before how to pay for them starts to come up, then things like health care and such start falling apart. And you can bet your ass that a republican would hit on that point and hit it hard over and over.
 
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crimson5pheonix

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If money doesn't matter in elections then why didn't Booker win the primary? Oh, maybe he just wasn't as popular as McGrath was. You love a grand conspiracy when sometimes shit just happens. Also, progressive policies only win in polls before how to pay for them starts to come up, then things like health care and such start falling apart. And you can bet your ass that a republican would hit on that point and hit it hard over and over.
You do realize one of McGrath's talking points was that she was going to kiss Trump's ass more than McConnell, right? Why would anyone vote for her?
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
You do realize one of McGrath's talking points was that she was going to kiss Trump's ass more than McConnell, right? Why would anyone vote for her?
Kentucky went hard for trump, those people are his voting base. Kinda have to do weird shit like that, again, conservative dem is better then a republican since you might get something out of them as opposed to won't get anything out of them.
 

Revnak

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If money doesn't matter in elections then why didn't Booker win the primary? Oh, maybe he just wasn't as popular as McGrath was. You love a grand conspiracy when sometimes shit just happens. Also, progressive policies only win in polls before how to pay for them starts to come up, then things like health care and such start falling apart. And you can bet your ass that a republican would hit on that point and hit it hard over and over.
“Grand conspiracy?” It’s not a grand fucking conspiracy Jesus Christ National party leadership all openly endorsed the idiotic McGrath, and the list of contradictory statements is pointing out how broken our system is, not me stating a belief in either. I obviously think money makes a difference. Attain reading comprehension.
 
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Revnak

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Kentucky went hard for trump, those people are his voting base. Kinda have to do weird shit like that, again, conservative dem is better then a republican since you might get something out of them as opposed to won't get anything out of them.
EXCEPT THAT HER ADS CONTRIBUTED TO TRUMP WINNING OHIO
 

crimson5pheonix

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Kentucky went hard for trump, those people are his voting base. Kinda have to do weird shit like that, again, conservative dem is better then a republican since you might get something out of them as opposed to won't get anything out of them.
Well they didn't go for her, she fucking got destroyed because she won in places that vote Republican when Republicans are sucking out their eyeballs. Trying to steal Republican voters does not work, period. Even if you say you would have voted for Kavanaugh.

This is part of why the primary system is busted, but it's a problem without a very good solution. There are a lot of fixable problems with the primary system, but McGrath won the primary on the back of districts she would never win in the general, while Booker drove turnout in places that might have overcome that deficit. Booker was clearly the stronger candidate in a general election.

And as Revnak said, McGrath running redder than Mitch Mconnell easily lost her the election and sewed doubt in the Democrats in general.
 

Revnak

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Well they didn't go for her, she fucking got destroyed because she won in places that vote Republican when Republicans are sucking out their eyeballs. Trying to steal Republican voters does not work, period. Even if you say you would have voted for Kavanaugh.

This is part of why the primary system is busted, but it's a problem without a very good solution. There are a lot of fixable problems with the primary system, but McGrath won the primary on the back of districts she would never win in the general, while Booker drove turnout in places that might have overcome that deficit. Booker was clearly the stronger candidate in a general election.

And as Revnak said, McGrath running redder than Mitch Mconnell easily lost her the election and sewed doubt in the Democrats in general.
It’s not that she just sowed doubt in the Dems, it’s that her openly pro-Trump ads were broadcast in Ohio too. And even then, in that region of the Midwest crossing state lines regularly is absurdly normal so people would’ve encountered a lot of her ads even if they weren’t being broadcast out of state.
 

crimson5pheonix

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It’s not that she just sowed doubt in the Dems, it’s that her openly pro-Trump ads were broadcast in Ohio too. And even then, in that region of the Midwest crossing state lines regularly is absurdly normal so people would’ve encountered a lot of her ads even if they weren’t being broadcast out of state.
Yeah, and that causes doubt in the Democrats, because they as a platform ran on Trump being shaitan while one their own is out here saying "But he's right though".
 

Revnak

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Yeah, and that causes doubt in the Democrats, because they as a platform ran on Trump being shaitan while one their own is out here saying "But he's right though".
Exactly! I wonder how appealing her argument was to the known factor of rural and post-industrial voters her campaign targeted that live in Ohio who we know voted for Obama in 2008 and 2012 but voted for Trump in 2016? Oh, and are why Trump won Ohio in 2020.

Anyone defending the McGrath campaign is choosing the death of society so Democrat failsons get to pump their resumes with internships for campaign contractors.
 
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Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
Well they didn't go for her, she fucking got destroyed because she won in places that vote Republican when Republicans are sucking out their eyeballs. Trying to steal Republican voters does not work, period. Even if you say you would have voted for Kavanaugh.
Here, have some exit polling.

It’s not that she just sowed doubt in the Dems, it’s that her openly pro-Trump ads were broadcast in Ohio too. And even then, in that region of the Midwest crossing state lines regularly is absurdly normal so people would’ve encountered a lot of her ads even if they weren’t being broadcast out of state.
Maybe, sounds like Booker should have tried harder to win the primary.