Prostitution/Pornography

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maninahat

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Nov 8, 2007
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Therumancer said:
A good example of the above for example is that you point out how in the UK the standard exists based on the Jury being "sure of guilt" this is not the case in the US. In the US whether the Jury thinks someone is guilty is supposed to be irrelevent, with the Jury being specifically instructed to vote on the Law as it exists, rather than their personal interpetation or beliefs based on the evidence. Of course in practice it proves nearly impossible to divorce people from individual opinions.[/quote] I think I did not make the term "sure of guilt" clear enough. The sureness of guilt must come entirely from evidence provided during the trial - thus any bias or deciding that "this guy surely is guilty" just from a general gut feeling goes against the court rule. If anything, the UK court systen actually make it harder to convict someone than the US court system. It is unlikely that most cases will be able to prove "beyond reasonable doubt" that someone is guilty.

Despite this, (as our resident "ask a policeman" will tell you) 2/3rds of court cases end in some kind of conviction. This is because law enforcement agencies will not push for a trial until they know they have accumulated enough evidence to get a conviction. They will not bother with anything less.

Thus in the US you see people who are guilty as sin going free in cases because of some legal technicality based on an order of evidence, or a reasonable doubt existing purely in a technical sense. This is not the case to this extent in other nations.
Yes, this often happens in the UK as well as many other places. And of course, criminals have the right to appeal if they believe they have been wrongly convicted. As was the case of Megrahi, convicted of the Lockerbie bombings. He actually had reasonably strong grounds to appeal against his life sentence, though he ended up dropping the appeal on the offer that he could be released on compassionate grounds; something which American senators were strongly against.

It's pretty much a fact that the US is the most free country on earth.
No it isn't. Try looking for evidence to support such a claim, because I already have and came up with nothing. Firstly, it can be argued that it is impossible to quantify the "most free country". There are a various categories of freedom, and whilst America is likely to trump countries in some, it loses out in others. Europeans will smugly scorn America for its treatment of homosexuals (openly homosexual people still can't serve in the military) or its "prudish" and "puritanical" approach to things like the age of consent, or alcohol consuption. Meanwhile, the UK clearly lags behind in terms of gun-ownership rights and libel laws.

Economic freedoms can be quantified, in which case, America comes 4th in the list and Britain, 12th. Hong Kong wins for having the most free a market. America has a Bill of Rights garenteeing the protection of certain freedoms, but then so does nearly every other country. The UK is actually one of the few exceptions to this (though it does have several physical documents, like the Magna Carta, which serves a vaguely similar purpose).

You look at the US rates of violent crime, murder, rape, and other things and we're usually pretty far up there compared to other relatively free nations.
I wouldn't necessarily blame it on freedom. Again, I'd attribute it to socio/economic and cultural elements which are unique to every country (and often every city).

Indeed one of the obstacles hurting the spread of US culture (which goes beyond this discussion) is simply that when we talk about other nations embracing freedom, that freedom also comes at the cost of safety that other nations might enjoy. Sure technically a lot of people might want some of these freedoms, but at the same time they want their kids to be able to walk the streets in comparitive safety....
Agreed. Although I'm not so fond of your choice of words in regards to "the spread of US culture".
 

SnipErlite

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Aug 16, 2009
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aseelt said:
Actually I thought of something else. The legal age of consent is 16 in the UK, but 18 for watching porn.
I always found that hilarious - We can have sex at 16 but god forbid you film it and watch it - Wait what?

OT: It is interesting, that the act of filming it makes it more legal

[sub]I was going to slip in an "act of observing" quantum joke, but ehhh[/sub]
 

Sjakie

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Feb 17, 2010
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yes, selling an orgasm to another person should really be illegal.
It really is disgusting that there are prostitutes that do that to other people.
 

aseelt

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Jan 13, 2010
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Therumancer said:
First of all: thank you, for taking the time to write that post. I really appreciate it.

Basically what it sounds like (from the first few paragraphs) that mainstream pornography is technically considered an "art film". But then that raises the question of home made sex tapes, would they be illegal "true" pornography since they lack plot?

I'm not going to respond to the rest of the comment (don't get me wrong please, I do appreciate the time it took you) because I think it's beyond the scope of this thread. They are interesting points, but alas law enforcement, legalization, and differences among countries isn't the issue.

MelasZepheos said:
*Snip x2*
As someone brought up earlier, porno films tend to have a plot. A pretence, but a loose plot. That raises a similarity to indie and mainstream films and their unsimulated sex scenes.

x0ny said:
In prostitution, the actual prostitute can be the victim being forced into prostitution against their will, that's why it's made illegal, to scare away potential clients and induce a decline in the industry so that the number of victims will hopefully be reduced.
Not all prostitutes are dragged into it. Granted a lot are, but that doesn't allow generalisations to be made

CrysisMcGee said:
It's a great money maker as well, and the government loves their tax dollars. Oddly enough, We can thank Larry Flynt for making porn legal.
Oh, THIS! Free speech. Is that why pornography is legal, and prostitution is not?

BonsaiK said:
Someone brings up exactly this point in the film "Sex: The Annabel Chong Story", a film that I highly recommend to anyone reading this thread who is interested in these issues. Basically, it's the cameras that change the situation from an illegal act (prostitution) into a legal act (making a film). I wonder how it works in the city where I live, where prostitution is legal but making a pornographic film is not...
Interesting. Both the film, and your city. Which one is it may I ask?

urprobablyright said:
A guy who refers forum posts to his wife about prostitution and pornography...

... That is really, really far removed from my lifestyle.
Explain please? How is it far removed from your lifestyle? You don't have these conversations with your other half? I talk to mine, it's perfectly mature conversation

GodKlown said:
So what about situations where porn stars hold a contest to have sex with a fan, and they record that and sell the video? Am I off, or does this sound vaguely like what you are proposing?
I've never heard of that.

Altorin said:
it's because pornography is basically speech, and speech is free of laws.

It's the same reason it's illegal for a woman to go topless in the streets, unless she's protesting that it's illegal for her to go topless in the streets.

chew on that one for a while.."
I like that. It's smart

--

You know it's kind of gotten too complicated to reply to all of your posts.
 

khaimera

Perfect Strangers
Jun 23, 2009
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silver wolf009 said:
I dont know why things like this happen. Alot of the rules of modern goverment make no sense but are inforced because no one stops to question it.
What? We question our horrible laws all the time (you and I just did) but unfortunately our govt is set up in such a way that there isn't really anything we can do about it. Gotta love the illusion of voting. EX: Arizona has passed medical marijuana twice that I know of and then our govt refuses to sign it into law anyways. I'm oversimplifying the process, but it happened.

OT: Your idea sounds good to me. And your wife is pretty smart for thinking of that becuase I never looked at it that way. I was too busy doing other things while enjoying this type of entertainment.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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....[/quote] Agreed. Although I'm not so fond of your choice of words in regards to "the spread of US culture".[/quote]


Much has been snipped due to this getting well off subject, I'm sure it will be discussed in other threads. This would go on forever. :p

One point I will clarify though is this last bit. You have to understand when reading my posts that I am one of those people who feels that a single global goverment/culture is nessicary for the survival and expansion of humanity, and for things like space travel and exploration to become viable. It would get way too long for me to explain all of the reasons why I think this and reinforce it with various points, and I'm sure it will come up again anyway.

As a result I believe that EVERY culture and nation needs to be disbanded and absorbed into a single world goverment and meta culture. No exceptions. As things are now, a lot of people don't like this because everyone wants a degree of independance, and looking at the history of their own little patch of the planet resents it being absorbed and what happened there being trivialized at least. Some cultures like China are all for what I'm saying but only if their culture pretty much absorbs everyone.

When it comes to US Culture I believe our system is the only one that can remain workable on a global scale, although it itself will have to be changed and ultimatly adapt. The general principles of ethnic equality, property ownership, free competition, and similar things. Most other nations will make claims of diversity and point to minorities in goverment and such, but in general the US has managed to get more people and points of view to co-exist relatively peacefully than anyone else. What's more in the end you will find that many of our rivals are nations where the nation, ethnicity, and culture are one and the same.

Again, I could get into this in more detail, but this isn't the thread for it.

I believe a world unity will mostly come about slowly due to a spread of ideas. I think America has been successful on this level, and right now our biggest threat is other nations trying to isolate themselves from information to avoid from slowly entering a true global melting pot. These national firewalls and such being as much a threat to humanity in general (preventing anyone from doing these things, not just the US) as a "Hot Zone" type uber virus.

In the end violence will be nessicary, and yes I think millions and billions will be killed in the final equasion due to wars resulting from this. But in the long term it will be worth it, and I think the majority of the unity will be done peacefully. In the end though there will be backwards and/or fiercely independant people who won't be able to be brought in even for the good of humanity, and then forced intergration or destruction will become nessicary. However that is a long time in coming, and something that will hopefully be avoided and minimized as much as possible in the end.

Longer than I expected. This is more of an explanation than a real attempt to discuss things here. This is simply what *I* think in a long term/global sense. A lot of what I say comes down to the protection of the free spread of American ideals as I feel that way lies the future of humanity. With nothing more practical out there, I think it comes down to either that or depleting our resources globally to the point that space travel becomes impossible, and then watching our sun explode billions of years down the road taking us with it.
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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aseelt said:
Therumancer said:
First of all: thank you, for taking the time to write that post. I really appreciate it.

Basically what it sounds like (from the first few paragraphs) that mainstream pornography is technically considered an "art film". But then that raises the question of home made sex tapes, would they be illegal "true" pornography since they lack plot?

I'm not going to respond to the rest of the comment (don't get me wrong please, I do appreciate the time it took you) because I think it's beyond the scope of this thread. They are interesting points, but alas law enforcement, legalization, and differences among countries isn't the issue.

-

I understand, I do however think all of those things are parts of the issue. I wrote all of that to explain how and why things can be differant elsewhere in response to other responses here where people were mentioning countries with legal prostitution and such. All of what I mentioned has an effect, and it's also why issues like this defy any easy solution. Most big issues are like that, which is why people spend so much time fighting symptoms than trying to address things centrally because of all the other things they wind up having to address as well.

As far as pornographic home movies, to be honest I have no idea in that context as I don't think I've ever seen the issue addressed. If I had to guess I would imagine that a lot of it comes down to sale and distribution. Something like that for your personal use is one thing, but if you pass it out or charge money for it, then it becomes something else.

Sort of like how you might have a picture or two of your kids naked that you took because they were doing something funny or cute. Or a picture of your daughter in a swimsuit at the beach, or whatever. That's harmless in your own "memories" scrap book, but if you start passing it around to pervs intentionally it becomes kiddie porn.

I'd guess distribution is the key.
 

PxDn Ninja

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Jan 30, 2008
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aseelt said:
So I replied to the posting on dating a porn star, and sent the link to my wife. She brought up an interesting point.

Prostitution is illegal in most of the United States, yet pornography is (as far as she and I know) legal. Porn stars basically get paid for having sex with other porn stars.

My wife quite correctly stated: you could be a prostitute, but rather than charge for a sexual service, you would charge for a sex tape of the performed act (yes I realise sex on tape is a fantasy for men and women)

Do you think this point has merit?
Here is the largest problem with that plan.

Taxes.

A large reason that Prostitution is illegal is not because of morals or any such thing, it is because it is untaxed income. The reason it isn't made legal is moral issues with the politicians, but because PORN is taxed, it isn't brought under as much scrutiny, and it does fall under OSHA guidelines as well meaning STD tests have to be taken for shows and the like.

IF prostitution was legalized, all this would qualify as well (as it is in Vegas with the legal brothels out there), and prostitution would basically become a branch of the porn industry.
 

Dr. Gorgenflex

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May 10, 2009
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Sightless Wisdom said:
Dr. Gorgenflex said:
Sightless Wisdom said:
Well I live in Canada. Prostitution is legal here...In the case of U.S I say your laws are confused and a little bit ironic.
Where I live in Canada, it is certainly illegal.
I'm sorry...you're wrong? Prostitution is legal in Canada while public solicitation is not. Unless of course the laws differ from province to province.
Oh i just looked it up in Legal Studies today in prostitution is legal while solicitation isn't, but you can't live off of it (in Alberta) so porn stars would require a second job.
 

Sightless Wisdom

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Jul 24, 2009
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Dr. Gorgenflex said:
Sightless Wisdom said:
Dr. Gorgenflex said:
Sightless Wisdom said:
Well I live in Canada. Prostitution is legal here...In the case of U.S I say your laws are confused and a little bit ironic.
Where I live in Canada, it is certainly illegal.
I'm sorry...you're wrong? Prostitution is legal in Canada while public solicitation is not. Unless of course the laws differ from province to province.
Oh i just looked it up in Legal Studies today in prostitution is legal while solicitation isn't, but you can't live off of it (in Alberta) so porn stars would require a second job.
Yeah, that's the law in Ontario as well.(So I assume it's the same for the rest of Canada)
 

w1ndscar

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Jul 22, 2009
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I would say that prostitution is illegal because there are women out there forced to have do that, like in Taken, that guys daughter almost got sold to a branch of prostitution where shed be drugged up then forced to go do that crap.
 

Ridonculous_Ninja

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Apr 15, 2009
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aseelt said:
Actually I thought of something else. The legal age of consent is 16 in the UK, but 18 for watching porn.

So sex with your eyes closed then? And then no prostitution/pseudo porno vids for you.
See, it's allowed for 12 year olds and up to have sex in Canada (so long as it's with someone over 12 and within a years age difference from themselves until they hit 16 or 18, I can't remember which), but porn I think is still 18. I brought up this point pretty much right after I learned this. I find it rather amusing.
 

manaman

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Sep 2, 2007
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MR T3D said:
but if it is sold to a 3rd party (pimp) whom in turn sells the tape to the client as the product of a transaction, the money from which is distributed between the 'crew' of the 'movie' (pimp, ho)
a little complex, few oops in the loophole.
but i know my loopholes.
The movie is irrelevant, forget about it being made or not. The money would still be coming from the John for sex. If the pimp paid a guy to have sex with his prostitute then it would be legal. Otherwise if the money is coming from either party having sex it is illegal.
 

quiet_samurai

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Apr 24, 2009
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I think prostitution should be legal, because in the end what is it you're selling? Your body, and when the government tells you that you don't have the right to sell your body.... then they are saying they own it, not you. And the only reason porn is legal is because it the the highest money making form of entertainment world wide. It makes more then cinema and videogames.
 

Zedzero

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Feb 19, 2009
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Cheveyo said:
Sightless Wisdom said:
Well I live in Canada. Prostitution is legal here...In the case of U.S I say your laws are confused and a little bit ironic.
Well, considering that the law makers are probably the ones breaking those laws most often, it isn't very surprising.
4
Wait! Prositution is legal? You sure last time I check it was Illegal Or is it legal in your province? Ontario btw.

OT: That is very irionic and I never thought about it that way. And did you know prostitution was legal back in the days of ancient Rome and Greece?
 

razer17

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Feb 3, 2009
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aseelt said:
My wife quite correctly stated: you could be a prostitute, but rather than charge for a sexual service, you would charge for a sex tape of the performed act (yes I realise sex on tape is a fantasy for men and women)

Do you think this point has merit?
No, because prostitution is paying someone for sex with someone. In porn both people get payed. I also think to make porn officially you need a licence.
 

2012 Wont Happen

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Aug 12, 2009
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I've thought of this same point. I brought it up to my friends one day that we could, in theory, legally be pimps by doing this. None of us really want to be pimps, but we all got a good laugh out of it.