Prove to me that the Gaming Community Excludes Women

geK0

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Dragonbums said:
Does gaming actively exclude? No.

Is it off putting to many people? Yes? It seems that gamers as a whole are in abject denial of how we look to people who don't play videogames at all, or even on a monthly basis. Especially in regards to women, and other minority demographics.

Some, like all people, legitmately don't give a fuck about vidya. Others, when glancing at Gamestop just don't see anything even remotely "female friendly".

You guys can list indie and JRPG games all you fucking like. But at the end of the day, when most people walk into game centric stores like Gamestop they are going to see the "kiddy" section that is Nintendo, and the "mature" section that is Sony and Microsoft. None of the games on full display look anything different. Same shit different age. Big, buff, burly dude with explosions in the background and probably fuck tons of testosterone and oh look- A new GTA game is out. The most mainstream game on the planet next to Mario and Pokemon. That's not even getting into the stereotype that's still alive and well that the moment you say your a girl people dog pile your ass with sexist slurs and shitty kitchen jokes.

Of course Extra Credits puts this way better imo.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8ZVZRsy8N8
I guess Gamestop needs to start selling more Nintendogs and Barbie games right? Because girls just don't like guns and violence and zombies and such. There needs to be more games about flowers and sharing!
 

LawAndChaos

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It really is telling how viable one's opinion is when they're still labelling Nintendo as "kiddy." But then that discussion is from arguments rooted in the 'console war' bs that circled around for a while. That's still going on? I thought we put that nonsense behind us.

Nothing "female friendly," honestly.

"You guys can list indie and JRPG games all you like, but there's still nothing that appeals to women because it's not front and center." Even though Steam and online gaming outlets are just as viable for games, where you can just search for whatever you want or browse through to find something that works for you under whatever genre of game you like. But since it's not front and center on the gaming shelves there's nothing in game stores that's female friendly.

So in other words, you're never going to be satisfied regardless of the answer, because you're right by default. I guess "no accounting for taste" doesn't apply when you can just complain about it being there instead.

And furthermore, define 'female friendly.' I'd like to know what exactly that would entail, because apparently the burly macho men and explosions that we see SO MUCH OF (in lieu of, I dunno, space maweens, which have been a mainstay for the FPS genre since the first Halo?) appeal to men in general, and I have no idea what would fall under an appeal to women in general.

Oh, and why point out that you're a girl playing games? Just play the game. If you need to communicate with your team, do so. If they're idiots who slur you, outplay them. There's always going to be bigoted assholes on the internet. No one is exempt. If english is your second language, they'll guess your accent and tell you to go back to your country, or spew racial slurs that would embarrass a clansmen. If you've got a high voice, people usually assume you're a minor, which can quickly bring out the worst in people if you are. If you're bad at the game, you'll probably get trash talked, told to uninstall, be called a dumbass, and pretty much any range of insults based on how inflammatory things get.

It's not right, of course, and it should change. It's not just ONE minority. Keep that in mind.
 

Jennifer Valentine

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As others have said, just having a feminine name or a female avatar does seem to open you up to a whole host of problems that men often don't receive. And I will quickly speak up and say not all men and a lot of other boiler plate. It is a section of the gaming public. Ages are hard to tell, but the younger crowd does seem more apt to bully females or members of the LGBT community if just for the opportunity to do so.

That said, here's some things women receive, and answer if men get these often:
1 VERY suggestive/sexually provocative messages or outright solicitations for sex while gaming.
2 Being told you are hot even though there is no real way to tell that that person is in fact hot in real life (whatever "hot" means to you)
3 Players actively avoid playing with you for being a woman (saw it a ton in Halo 4)
4 And I would finish with the remarks this vocal minority make on forums and such saying how so-and-so female should be raped or otherwise sexually assaulted or called a prostitute.

These are issues for "active/hardcore" female gamers. No the whole community isn't trying to push them out, but a portion of unknown size certainly is, and that cannot be disputed. Their campaigns of harassment at their core scream that women should know their place, and it isn't in the gaming community. Again though, this is a portion, not the whole. But a very vocal and abusive portion nonetheless.
 

LawAndChaos

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Then it's a community issue. I don't see how games influence that sort of behavior when these groups could very well be more the exception than the rule.

The smallest dogs bark the loudest. We can whip it with the newspaper into forlorn silence if that's what people want, I guess. It probably wouldn't solve much in the long run, but it'd be a start maybe.

Or maybe this is a more deep-seated issue. Maybe the younger crowd are playing games they shouldn't be because their parents decided the XBone was a good replacement babysitter, and being exposed to the stuff better suited for adults made them these hate-spewing brats who think they have the right to scream at everyone that they don't like because no one can reach through the tv to throttle them.

Now, for the points made;

1- Inexcusable. I can only assume these were made by immature teens and the like who think a girl who shares their interests would be willing to screw. It's usually the common lonely loser logic (or the L.L.L for short): girl likes games. I like games. Therefore girl likes me. Bow-chicka-hurr-durr.

2- Eh, I dunno about this. Like, people can have sexy voices. I've heard my fair share of sexy man voices. I'm a straight guy, and even I'm willing to admit a guy has a sexy-ass voice. I mean, it's not something you should base your entire perception of a person on, but I don't really see it as unreasonable for someone to say they're attractive if they hear some smooth baritone or a cute voice come on the mic. I mean, if it gets to the point of uncomfortable I can understand, but one off-hand comment about someone being attractive isn't going to ruin someone's experience. I've played games where dudes have had sexy voices and other dudes are totally cool with saying his voice is sexy. Does point 2 move into point 1 from this? Or is it just them declaring they find a person attractive and leaving it at that?

3- Now, I think this is an issue, but I don't think it's strictly a gender one. Keep in mind the competetive FPS mindset: "everyone sucks except me." Women are presumed to be poor at these games because female gamers aren't the majority. It's operating on the assumption that because she's a woman, she doesn't play games often. Because they assume a woman doesn't play games often, it is then assumed they aren't good at these games and therefore is a "noob." No one wants to play with bad players. They want to win, because in competetive FPS games, winning is all that really matters to some people. It's a stupid elitist mindset that doesn't just lock out women, but new players in general. I can agree on the notion that this happens to women more than anyone else though.

4- Bigoted vocal minorities are all over the place saying stupid shit. What can we do about them? We can't silence them, because freedom of speech is freedom of speech. If we can't convince them to see our side, what other option is there? All the majority can do is lead by example, acknowledge that the abusive portion is full of ignorance and stupidity, and leave it to rot in its own juices. Choosing to acknowledge them, or to challenge them, is treating their side of the discussion as something worth a smart person's time, rather than the ignorant blatherings of unreasonable radicals. If they aren't even going to try to construct a well-reasoned argument, why humor them? They say hurtful things, sure, but no one is agreeing with the things they say except their own.
 

Jennifer Valentine

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I agree LawandChaos. It's a multifaceted issue in need of multipronged approaches. This is a general issue of acceptance that just needs to keep being asserted. In time it will be the norm. In the 1950s it was "wild" for women to wear pants, and now it's common.
 

WhiteNachos

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Vault101 said:
the fact that both of these things exploded the way they did (sarseskian and quin) I think speaks for itself
Why do you think the backlash wouldn't be as big if they were men?
 

WhiteNachos

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laraem said:
Anita has done dry cultural analysis 101 level stuff, what the heck can be objectionable about it. Really you want a sign that there's a problem? It's that Anita's videos are deemed extreme and controversial.
She's made several claims about games' real life effect on people, she's lied about Hitman and she tells viewers to ignore the context of the games.

And of course people disagree with what the things she calls sexist.
 

WhiteNachos

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TaboriHK said:
DizzyChuggernaut said:
I don't think you're quite understanding what I'm getting at. I don't think you'll find much opposition to women's rights in the western world outside of fundamentalist religious communities, anachronistic conservatives and complete idiots that think some sort of matriarchy is infringing on their precious "masculinity". People who want basic equal rights for males and females will seldom be called "feminazis" or "SJWs" by people outside of those groups. The term "SJW" in particular relates to a certain brand of Tumblr-style narcissistic slacktivism, not anyone that believes in social justice.
On the contrary, there's a ton of opposition to women's rights in the western world, and a generous portion of it is highly visible in the gaming community. And I didn't read feminazi on Tumblr, I read it in this thread. And it embarrasses me.
Where are the people highly visible in gaming community against women's rights? I've yet to see any.

These issues about whether such and such trope is sexist or whether there's enough female characters in games or whatever are not women's rights issues because these games are not violating any of their rights. People have the right to make any kind of portrayal of women they want in their games. They have the right to not include them at all if they want. Same with men.
 

WhiteNachos

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Jesterscup said:
T_ID said:
Jesterscup said:
"Go make me a sandwich"

the simple fact this sentence exists, that that you probably already know it's in use is evidence enough.
Can't you see how you're massively generalising, stereotyping and slandering a group millions strong here?
Yeah Actually I can. The simple (and perhaps sad ) fact is that when a community allows such behaviour within it's confines it becomes exclusionary.
People get banned on services like that for their bigoted trash talk, that's all we can do really. Gamers are not some club we can kick people out of. If they want to be a gamer they will be
E:unless they became injured or broke or something
 

Gretha Unterberg

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geK0 said:
I guess Gamestop needs to start selling more Nintendogs and Barbie games right? Because girls just don't like guns and violence and zombies and such. There needs to be more games about flowers and sharing!
No offense, but who cares about Gamestop?
We have Steam and [URL="http://www.zylom.com/us/en/download-games/hidden-object-games/" (title,target)]Zylom[/URL]
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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WhiteNachos said:
Why do you think the backlash wouldn't be as big if they were men?
because all the biggest internet shit storms involve women and "issues" and "isms" surrounding women

aside from that it depends on the kind of backlash....If someone like Jim Sterling or Yahtzee or Total Biscut says something stupid sure they will have shit thrown at them...but its a different kind of shit, you won't see as many people ragging on jims weight or threating to rape him

why? I don't know, some people have issues with women
 

JohnFei

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Vault101 said:
WhiteNachos said:
Why do you think the backlash wouldn't be as big if they were men?
because all the biggest internet shit storms involve women and "issues" and "isms" surrounding women

aside from that it depends on the kind of backlash....If someone like Jim Sterling or Yahtzee or Total Biscut says something stupid sure they will have shit thrown at them...but its a different kind of shit, you won't see as many people ragging on jims weight or threating to rape him

why? I don't know, some people have issues with women
I'll just direct you to this essay written a month ago.

All these horrible comments, just because she's a woman. Just because she's a woman she has to put up with this torrent of abuse, threats of rape, death threats, and people wishing terminal diseases upon her. It?s no wonder she turned off comments on her video series.

Just because she's a woman, a woman, just because she's a woman, a woman, no man would ever get this kind of abuse, no man would ever get this abuse, ever get this abuse, get this abuse, except of course?.

All the above quotes were actually directed at Jack Thompson, infamous game industry opponent and self professed 'male'. So why in the hell was he recieving RAPE THREATS? Surely this is a women's issue? Surely only women get this kind of abuse?

NO THEY DON'T.
https://archive.today/U048c

Have fun.
 

geK0

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Gretha Unterberg said:
geK0 said:
I guess Gamestop needs to start selling more Nintendogs and Barbie games right? Because girls just don't like guns and violence and zombies and such. There needs to be more games about flowers and sharing!
No offense, but who cares about Gamestop?
We have Steam and [URL="http://www.zylom.com/us/en/download-games/hidden-object-games/" (title,target)]Zylom[/URL]
Was my sarcasm too subtle? I was poking at the guy for saying that there is "nothing remotely female friendly" in a Gamestop : \
 

geK0

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Vault101 said:
WhiteNachos said:
Why do you think the backlash wouldn't be as big if they were men?
because all the biggest internet shit storms involve women and "issues" and "isms" surrounding women

aside from that it depends on the kind of backlash....If someone like Jim Sterling or Yahtzee or Total Biscut says something stupid sure they will have shit thrown at them...but its a different kind of shit, you won't see as many people ragging on jims weight or threating to rape him

why? I don't know, some people have issues with women
There is a list floating around that labels Jim Sterling, Bob Chipman and Greg Tito as "SJW extremists who should be avoided at all costs" but you're right, I've not heard of any harassment or rape threats toward them.
 

WhiteNachos

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Vault101 said:
WhiteNachos said:
Why do you think the backlash wouldn't be as big if they were men?
because all the biggest internet shit storms involve women and "issues" and "isms" surrounding women
Jack Thompson, Roger Ebert, numerous things with Fox, and if you let me count internet shitstorms that don't involve games there's Rush Limbaugh, that kid who set his cat on fire and others.

I see Bob get tons of crap for the things he says, same with Sterling, same with other critics.

Vault101 said:
aside from that it depends on the kind of backlash....If someone like Jim Sterling or Yahtzee or Total Biscut says something stupid sure they will have shit thrown at them...but its a different kind of shit, you won't see as many people ragging on jims weight or threating to rape him

why? I don't know, some people have issues with women
Attacking Jim's weight seems to be the first thing haters do.
 

Vault101

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Sep 26, 2010
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WhiteNachos said:
Jack Thompson, Roger Ebert, numerous things with Fox, and if you let me count internet shitstorms that don't involve games there's Rush Limbaugh, that kid who set his cat on fire and others.

I see Bob get tons of crap for the things he says, same with Sterling, same with other critics.
but the tone of the attacks is very different, Anna sarskessian was vaugley notable at best...yet the internet turned her into a monster
 

WhiteNachos

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Vault101 said:
WhiteNachos said:
Jack Thompson, Roger Ebert, numerous things with Fox, and if you let me count internet shitstorms that don't involve games there's Rush Limbaugh, that kid who set his cat on fire and others.

I see Bob get tons of crap for the things he says, same with Sterling, same with other critics.
but the tone of the attacks is very different, Anna sarskessian was vaugley notable at best...yet the internet turned her into a monster
Shitstorms come and go, Jack Thompson was made into a monster too.

Doesn't mean the attacks are solely because of their gender.
 

Gretha Unterberg

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geK0 said:
Gretha Unterberg said:
geK0 said:
I guess Gamestop needs to start selling more Nintendogs and Barbie games right? Because girls just don't like guns and violence and zombies and such. There needs to be more games about flowers and sharing!
No offense, but who cares about Gamestop?
We have Steam and [URL="http://www.zylom.com/us/en/download-games/hidden-object-games/" (title,target)]Zylom[/URL]
Was my sarcasm to subtle? I was poking at the guy for saying that there is "nothing remotely female friendly" in a Gamestop : \
Then please accept my apology.
I just wanted to point out that if people don't see stuff that
appeals to them, it might be because they look in the wrong places.
(hence the Zylom link where I get my hidden-object- and time-management-games)
 

geK0

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Gretha Unterberg said:
geK0 said:
Gretha Unterberg said:
geK0 said:
I guess Gamestop needs to start selling more Nintendogs and Barbie games right? Because girls just don't like guns and violence and zombies and such. There needs to be more games about flowers and sharing!
No offense, but who cares about Gamestop?
We have Steam and [URL="http://www.zylom.com/us/en/download-games/hidden-object-games/" (title,target)]Zylom[/URL]
Was my sarcasm to subtle? I was poking at the guy for saying that there is "nothing remotely female friendly" in a Gamestop : \
Then please accept my apology.
I just wanted to point out that if people don't see stuff that
appeals to them, it might be because they look in the wrong places.
(hence the Zylom link where I get my hidden-object- and time-management-games)
I just realized I used the wrong "too", I have brought great dishonour to my family D :
 

TaboriHK

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WhiteNachos said:
Where are the people highly visible in gaming community against women's rights? I've yet to see any.

These issues about whether such and such trope is sexist or whether there's enough female characters in games or whatever are not women's rights issues because these games are not violating any of their rights. People have the right to make any kind of portrayal of women they want in their games. They have the right to not include them at all if they want. Same with men.
If you hate women to the extent that you don't want them to be visible AT ALL in this industry, then you are against their rights. I'm not saying these groups advocate woman slavery (although I wouldn't put it past a large number of them), but one of THE fundamental rights is the right to coexistence. Don't be obtuse. Or, spend an hour reading the Gamer Gate hashtag. It's EXTREMELY present.