- Jul 16, 2008
HIDE YO KIDSmontopolis said:You are correct, your argument is ludicrous.
But responding to it, Sony's issue is not that he hacked his own console, on his own. Its that he posted the root key and instructions on the internet for everyone to access. You are absolutely able to do what YOU want to YOUR property, on your own, as long as you don't go online, because the PSN is Sony's network.
The real issue here is, that Sony is suing because they believe that the root key is Sony's property and it is not George Hotz's to give away to the public. Almost all these post here seem to not understand that, including this article's author and apparently George Hotz.
Sony is NOT contending that they should be allowed to come to your house, and mess with your PS3. They simply don't want YOU giving away to THEIR root keys to EVERYONE! Is that such an evil thing to want? to keep THEIR secret code a secret? I believe not.
Reading this article and its subsequent posts, I notice that everyone here keeps avoiding the real issue, and making it about Sony invading your houses.
HIDE YO WIFE
Home consoles are almost never mod friendly, and the PS3 has been out for 4 years without mods.klaynexas3 said:i think both sides are at fault. the hacker has unleashed the pirate community unto the ps3, and now will be losing game sales because it "was just for homebrewing". sony is at fault in that it needs an engine that is more mod friendly,
Actually, it is possible to pirate Steam games, just inconvenient.look how well valve does because of that, homebrew is allowed, but the pirating is still kept at bay.
Problem is, piracy dogs homebrews heels like a chihuahua following a guy who's shoes smell like Snausages; if you have homebrew, there's going to be piracy.it's a good system, that should be done for the ps3. i don't know how most of this stuff works, i've never done it and i haven't looked into the hardware of my ps3, but from the sounds of it, i guess all that i can see happening is psn turning into 4chan on a console. homebrew, good. piracy, bad. let's make sure we can see this.
Retosa said:Just because the gaming industry doesn't sue quite as frequently as the music industry doesn't make a lot of the lawsuits right. Plus, you have to consider that there are a LOT more people pirating music than there are pirating games. Music files are 3-5mb/piece (on average). Games... Well, these days you're looking at a minimum of 1GB, often somewhere around 5-10GB, with some being much larger than that. Takes a lot longer to download, and is a more niche hobby, rather than a close to universal hobby. Compound that with the number of people with the technical knowledge to pirate games being a bit more limited (using Daemon Tools is easy as hell, but I've talked to some people who wanted to try 'getting the free games off the internets', who got the iso, couldn't figure out wtf to do, and just said screw it and bought the game.) Also, considering that expanded technical knowhow tends to include the ability to hide themselves better via proxies and anonymous bittorrent settings/programs and etc. This all makes it harder for game companies to go after gamers pirating their goods.Illyasviel said:I don't think the number of cases the gaming industry files per year even comes close to ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND. Think about that. Every single day, about 275 people or organizations received an order to appear in court. Can you even think of 27 times you've heard of the gaming industry suing somebody? Not a typo. I am asking for you to recall a number of cases filed, off the top of your head, one tenth of what the rest of the industry does in a day in. I can think of when Nintendo sued an Australian based R4 ( the DS crack ), Sony sued the guys distributing the USB crack and the Nintendo thing about Pokemon you mentioned. Three total and two of those are pretty damn legit.Retosa said:Yeah, and like Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft haven't sued their customers for ridiculous things. Fan games and fan projects, Pokemon being discussed on a forum with screenshots of the japanese game before it's released in NA. Fan movies, etc. Instead of getting sued all the time, we get bullshit DRM that rootkits our computers, among other things. Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo are all abusing the laws and rules that were created by the RIAA/MPAA's pressure. And honestly, the gaming industry has prevented usable backups from being created since even the Playstation. Hell, even as far back as the Nintendo or before then. It's not like cartridge backup modules were easy to come by at any point in time. They are doing just as much to harm consumers as anyone else. Price fixing, DRM, abusing 'IP' laws to say that consumers don't own their gaming consoles.
I will agree with you that Geohot could have handled the situation better. But I have to say, Sony can't be reasoned with. They removed Other OS very quickly, and were never planning to bring it back. They also removed backwards compatibility. All in the name of 'protecting their IP' and 'combating piracy'. If they don't like what you do with their system, they gut it. And they've proven it time and time again.
The industry may not be as evil as it could be, but that's just a blanket statement. You could say "that guy just murdered those people... But at least he didn't rape them before he did it. He's not as evil as he could be." or "That guy just robbed the convenience store... But at least he didn't shoot the clerk. He's not as evil as he could be." In the end, it becomes a statement about how BAD the other industries are, not how GOOD the gaming industry is. What is being done is wrong, and the fact that so many people are convinced Sony is just "protecting itself" is proof of how badly brainwashed we've become.
Everybody restricts information about their products before release. Sure the suing is a bit much, but that's not something you can single out the gaming industry for. Ever wonder what happens when you distribute a movie that has a marquee on the bottom that says "Pre-release: not for distribution?" Most forms of copy protection do not involve installing a rootkit, and this only effects PC gamers, which means all you console only gamers don't get to use that rationale. But speaking of rootkits, do you remember StarForce? A Russian form of copy protection that installed a rootkit and was temporarily used by UbiSoft? Well, gamers complained about StarForce and UbiSoft dropped StarForce completely, and in fact, did not resort back to DRM for years. They brought DRM back when it turned out some of their games were being ridiculously pirated. I don't think I can remember any incidents of any other entertainment players doing anything like this for consumers.
That other OS argument is hardly worth much either. I doubt more than 5% of people even tried it once, and even though they took ONE feature out, they added a bunch more. Oh hai Netflix, PSHome, Qriocity, 3D support, when did you get on my PS3? Btw, if you really want Linux that bad, do what I did and buy like a USD400 notebook or dual boot or emulate ( I forget the exact term, but I believe you can do it with Cygwin ).
Backwards compatibility is not a big deal. I have it, and used it once. I came to the realization that while using backwards compatibility, the game is constantly streaming right off the disk, as opposed to intelligently using PS3 caching or installation. This shortens the life of my bluray drive and generates extra heat that can damage my PS3. If I really want to play PS2 games, I'll buy a PS2.
I'm not sure when this happened, but the more I talk to people the more I get the impression that a significant portion of people believe that businesses should be and are run by saints, that businesses do not constitute people making decisions, but some type of amorphous, nonhuman, innately evil substance making decisions, and finally, that they are the only people who matter in the universe. Sure businesses might not be your friend, but neither is GeoHot, and unlike GeoHot, businesses allow people to put bread on their table. Let me say it again. GeoHot is not your friend. Don't ever mistake him to be.
So, for once, throw the gaming industry a bone. They deserve it. As it is, sure DLC kinda sucks, but unlike the other industries, they really are making forward strides to bring consumers value through aggressive integration of technology. What about the music industry? Well, soon after the RIAA formed, the Big 5 ( I think? ) reduced CD prices by 30% to about USD12.50 / disc average, but those prices have gone back up to USD16. When was the last time you got a voucher from, say EMI Music? Hey, thanks for buying one of our CD's. As our thank you, here's a coupon to get 50% off your next purchase. In comparison, I have gotten two from EA games, eight beta invitations, one from GameStop and I think one from Sony. In comparison, games have only increased in price once in the last decade plus, hardly in line with increases in development and marketing costs and inflation.
Consider the alternative. Headlines filled with gamers being sued for thirty grand per game pirated. Think that number is absurd? Its not.
I think I saw somebody making some kind of analogy to Sony removing Other OS to be like removing the engine from your car? That's the most ridiculous analogy I've heard in my life. You don't need Other OS to use your PS3. Its more like... removing cruise control. Sure its a nice feature, I guess, but I've never used it, and I wouldn't be surprised if most people haven't used it either.
Not to mention the fact that the music industry tends to be a lot further behind in their business models than the gaming industry. They've done the same thing for a lot longer, and are entrenched deeper in their ways than the gaming industry is. RIAA feels like it has a lot more to lose from internet music distribution than the gaming industry has to lose from online gaming distribution (in fact, both industries have a lot to gain... However, music publishing has a LOT it could lose, due to an increased ease in self publishing over the internet, with the proper technical knowhow. The music industry knows this.) Also, I have to laugh at the fact that most of the music pirates area also their biggest consumers, as recent studies have found out. Actually, a lot of pirates I know are like that. No, doesn't make it right, but I just thought of it and it made me laugh.
It sure was nice of Ubisoft to temporarily remove DRM from their games, but they brought back some of the most ridiculous DRM out there. Also, I'm willing to bet that someone high up in Ubisoft decided that since 'game pirating' was at an 'all time high', 'a lot of our games are being pirated' so they needed to 'protect ourselves with DRM! GET PEOPLE WORKING ON IT RATHER THAN THE GAME!'
I never got a chance to use backwards compatibility on my PS3, but if they designed it properly (AKA caching the information properly and making use of the PS3's superior memory, while emulating the processing power and etc), then the PS3 would've been better at playing PS2 games than the PS2. Kinda like the PS2 was better at PSOne games than the PSOne was. It all came down to them not wanting to spend the extra money on properly designing it. Though, I can kinda feel for them a bit, considering they sold every system at a loss for a long time, and weren't doing so hot for so long, so I can understand removing it from the PS3 Fat. BUT, they could've fixed all that stuff with the PS3 Slim, instead of removing it completely. Your reason for not liking the PS2 backwards compatibility is them not designing it correctly, which is an argument for how much they failed at it, not it being a bad idea.
Other OS is something that maybe not a lot of people used, but it was a nice feature that allowed customization and the ability to play around and enjoy the system to its fullest for some people. It allowed homebrew apps and all sorts of fun stuff to be done on the PS3. Just because it wasn't a feature you wanted or used, doesn't mean others didn't like it. Sony removing it pissed off a lot of people who liked screwing around with that kind of stuff, and those are the people that went out and cracked the system open.
No one thinks that corporations are run by saints. But if we disagree with what they're trying to do, and what laws and rules they try to force down our throats, why shouldn't we fight back? Why should we roll over and just accept that we pay for a leased console that we aren't allowed to decide what we can do with? Why the hell should we just let them tell us what we can do with things we pay hard cash for, with none of the legal benefits of a lease? Tell ya what, if we start getting the legal benefits of leasing the consoles, I'll be alright with the fact that it's a lease. But either we lease the damn thing, and get the protections, or we own it, and we can do whatever the hell we want with the damn thing as long as what we do doesn't have an effect on the Playstation Network servers. I don't agree with the script kiddies screwing with the PSN games and all that bullshit.
No one wants pirating (except the pirates, of course), but a lot of us want to know that when we buy a console, we BUY it. And a lot of us want to be able to do more with our PS3's than we're currently allowed to do. As for Geohot being our friend? I don't give a shit whether he's a friend of mine or not. He's fighting a court case that, if he wins, will do exactly what I want. Tell me I OWN my Playstation 3. I'm not leasing it, I own the fucking thing. And THAT, is what I approve of. Complain all you like about the fact that he 'abused Sony's IP', IP needs to be completely redefined and the protections of it need to be reinvented. The DMCA needs to be completely abolished, and copyright law rewritten from the ground up.
I was reading an article a couple months ago on /. about how some scientist had created some new technology that sounded interesting. I don't remember exactly what it was, but he was presenting it. Afterwards, he went up to a company exec to ask if they'd be willing to help fund his research for applications if it could do what he was expecting it to do when he completed his preliminary research. The executive laughed, and informed him that if it worked the way it was supposed to, he would have his company hire a shitton of copyright lawyers, and write patents for every single application for the technology that they could think of. Thus, the scientist decided he wasn't going to patent his own research, due to the fact that even if he did, it wouldn't matter at all. This shit happens ALL the time, and it slows innovation and is absolute bullshit of the highest degree. This is why I hate copyright law, IP, and the DMCA.
As for the analogy, that was mine (unless someone else made an analogy similar to the one I made, or I might have quoted that one and got my analogy from it, I can't remember). Anyways, my analogy was that it was like modifying your engine. Other OS is another OS, runs differently from PS3's OS. Which makes it VERY MUCH like modifying your engine. If you fuck up, you can either screw up and have to start over, or you could brick your system (which can happen when modifying a car's engine as well). If you don't know what you're doing, you can brick your car/PS3. If you brick it, it's your fault, and Sony's (or the car manufacturer's) warranty has been voided (as they don't support Other OS anymore). You want another one, you buy a new PS3/car.
No, it's like having the iPod dock removed from your car AUTOMATICALLY at your next tune-up or REPAIR, not a RECALL. You can keep DRIVING it, but the next time you need SUPPORT for it, poof.montopolis said:Yes, because I should be forced to make a choice between keeping a feature I enjoy, and being able to play new games on a system I paid for, just because Sony decided to REMOVE the feature from the system. So they removed an ADVERTISED feature from a system I paid for with the knowledge that I could USE that ADVERTISED feature, OR tell me I can't play any new GAMES that come out for my GAMING console, because the NEW games require an update that REMOVES my ADVERTISED feature.
Yes, that's fair. Either I have an extremely limited library of games, with no access to online games, or lose an advertised feature for the console I purchased thinking I'd continue to receive support of my advertised feature. It's bullshit and you know it. That's like buying a car with an iPod Dock, only to have the vehicle recalled because they decided to remove the iPod Dock from the vehicle due to some legal matter. Yeah, that's fair.
Getting an obscure feature back isn't worth all the piracy that comes with it, and you know it.