Rape vs Violence: A Double Standard

4RM3D

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MarsAtlas said:
So, tell me, how can intentionally inflicting traumatic physical, emotional, and mental harm upon another person out of sadism, be made "fun" or "engaging" without being, well, sadistic? Can't be done.
For the same reason people watch the SAW movies which have gruesome torture scenes. I think it's either curiosity or just to see how far we can push ourselves on the FUBAR [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fubar#FUBAR] scale.

Moonlight Butterfly said:
Why do you want rape in your games at all? Is what I would wonder.
Good question, but besides the point. Nonetheless, to answer the question. Games have pretty much sketched every possible scenario we can find ourselves in. From a fight for survival in a zombie outbreak to solving murder cases. In between a lot of touchy subjects have been discussed. For example: should you abandon an injured person, so that the group can survive (the zombie outbreak)? It is only natural that at some point rape becomes a subject to be explored, because it is part of us.
 

4RM3D

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Loki_The_Good said:
I think your missing the point about it being about the player and not the content. Why does a player seek to engage in acts of violence why does someone wish to engage in virtual dare deviling.
...
Your just too focused on the virtual acts of the game and ignoring the player themselves.
So anyone wanting to play a rape game is mentally ill, because rape only goes 1 way whereas murder can go both ways (e.g. stress relieve, power play). Thus playing a murder game would not be automatically condemned. Is that it?

So it is more about the intent than it is about the action taken?
 

4RM3D

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Loki_The_Good said:
Pretty much yeah that's the difference. Whether you think that's enough or meaningful is a whole other debate but it is a key difference that stops it from being a double standard.

Edit: actually let me fix that no not mentally ill. Everyone can have darker impulses. However it's more about not feeding into that impulse and tuning it into a game and something that is enjoyed.
Double standards aside, when intent matters the following is false (the last sentence in my OP):

If games are an outlet to fantasy, the content of the game doesn't matter because it is just a game.
However I think the above is true. So somewhere, something is clashing with our reasoning.
 

TehCookie

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Gorrath said:
TehCookie said:
If you want to play a rapist there are games for that, but those games should never be acceptable.
Why? What do you mean by acceptable? Why is it the fictitious, gruesome murder of a human being for no other reason than "It's fun" is acceptable but the fictitious rape of someone is not? Why is torturing someone acceptable, but rape is not? It is all complete fiction with no actual person being hurt. It is pixels on a screen.
From the uproar games like GTA or Manhunt get from the media, I don't think overly violent games are acceptable either. Also why do you want brutal torture and/or rape to be acceptable? Do you want to rape people in a game?
 

The-Traveling-Bard

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darlarosa said:
Magenera said:
of lazy writing. Nothing is worse than lazy writing about a serious subject that is worth a lot more than that.

And you wanna know why people get fired up over a "joke" or a discussion. Its because for some people rape is a real threat every time they go out alone. Sometimes every time they come home. I don't know. Maybe I'm crazy but it's real fucked up that I can name ten close friends of mine off the top of my head who have been sexually assaulted, raped, or followed by creepy men. That's not counting members of my family. Yeah maybe I'm real fucking crazy.
Look at my picture than look back at me.

Okay, let me tell you why this is bullshit.

Because some people have the fear have also being killed every time they walk outside.
They can also have the fear of being beaten up and pushed around.

Everything is offensive to someone.

The problem is that people can't grow a thick skin and just turn a blind eye to it. They HAVE to control it because. TEH CHILDREN! I THE HOLY KNIGHT WITH MY PC WAND WILL PROTECT THEIR FEELINGS!

Err... No? You really don't need to protect their feelings. I am sure they can do that on their own.

The thing is the rating system is completely out of wack.
What is considered "Adult only" is pretty wide term.
Example of this is Halo/CoD while the game is violent it's still not as bad as.. The Last of Us and The Witcher.

So we have a loose and very warped idea of what is consider "Adults only."

Even Dragon Age Origins is pretty much a power house fantasy with very few in the singe numbers adult themes.
But over all, Dragon Age Origins is pretty childish.

My entire argument defensive is this.

Why is it okay for movies/books/tv shows to have rape but once it comes to games it's a big no-no?
Seriously. I want games to be treated on the same story respect and maturity that other story telling media gets.
Rape as mechanic? Okay, I can get on board with that and say I disagree.

Rape as a story plot? Yup. I find it acceptable. Why? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS! DUH!

What did you expect when you walk into a forest full of male bandits and you're a women?
Sunshine and butterflies?
Are they suppose to walk over to you and hand you a cup of tea. Talk a little and go on their way?

Sadly the world isn't full of Rainbows and Unicorns.

"Us" gamers really need to start standing up and start pushing for more adult story telling and shrug off the bullshit around games. They're not any different from books and movies and should be treated with the same respect.

Also murder has serious mental illnesses and emotional trauma that comes along with it.
So nobody give me bullshit on how rape is means they're scared for life and blah, blah, blah.
It's a stupid argument because murder also carries on through out your entire life.
 

darlarosa

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Eddie the head said:
darlarosa said:
To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.
That's subjective at best. The fear of dying might be much worse for some people then the mental trauma you would experience form torture. For me out of the two to quote Tim form Mogworld "I kind of don't want to die." Yes it would suck to be tortured, but if I die I just don't "exist" anymore.
Hence the phrase "to me". It is subjective.

Hagi said:
You're not even making a legitimate arguement. You're going to laughable extremes in order to make a statement, but the extremes you go to ultimately defeat it. Sorry.
Also see the above, as I said subjective...not to mention even the extreme you go to makes no logical sense. (Particularly considering mercy killing is viewed negatively by most people, so at your absurd end of the spectrum...yeah). Nice Try
Chris Tian said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, being alive is always superior to being dead, because only if you are alive there is a chance of getting better, regardless of how slim that chance may be.

I am closely related to a rapevictim and we, her close family and friends, and her are very very happy that she is still alive.
Subjective. I know a few who don't "recover" and knew someone who killed herself.. n general putting rape/murder aside. The superiority of life is debatable. Some people full heartedly believe that death hold things better than life For some people life holds nothing but repetition and deadness inside. It's philosophical perspective.
Though I'm glad your friend was able to continue on with her life. Plenty do happily. But some don't

I never said actually that people would rather be dead than alive (I do't think). I think I said for me, in my eyes, torture and rape are worse than murder. The acts themselves. Death can slow or fast, but when it takes you that is it. Torture and rape leave lingering pain and mental scars. To me that makes it worse. People keep responding that death is worse because it's death, but that's their take on it. Death is sad but it's one moment. Or a beautiful long aria stretched out before death claims you. Maybe there is nothing after or maybe there is something regardless deah is one thing. Torture and rape have so many other things, so much fall out, and to me that makes it worse.

bounty90 said:
That guy wasent even responding to you and you flip out at him, so maby you are crazy.
Actually he refers to me by name in his comment. Not to be rude but get your shit straight he literall says "as darlarosa put's it". To quote a man check yo self before you wreck yourself.

Schadrach said:
darlarosa said:
I never mentioned censorship. The proliferation of rape culture isn't through just depicting rape. Never said that. You understood nothing of what I said. So let me break it down. Rape culture is the combination of factors in our media and social structure that reinforce the idea that the attacker has lost something and the sexual assault and/or rape victim is some how at fault. It is a combination of factors as depicted in the media and in conversation that demonstrate sexual violence, usually against women, is warranted for some reason, and once again that brings it back to it being the victims fault. It includes groups that convince victims not to go to the police, and the system that allows most rapists go free(I forget the statistic), Or that make it ok to drug someone or ply them with booze so that they can be violated.
That is rape culture. When sexual assault and rape are normalized as simple things people need to accept ans their own doing to themselves and as something they(twisted as it is) have a right to do with others.
Rape culture as a concept will always be a hard sell to gamers. You know why? The logic behind it is very reminiscent of Jack Thompson's logic regarding violence in games, except that it's allegedly different with rape than other forms of violence because reasons.

darlarosa said:
Its because for some people rape is a real threat every time they go out alone.
Ironically, violent crimes in general (a set that includes rape and sexual assault but also simple assault murder, and all that other fun stuff) have a large majority of victims being male, yet most men don't live in constant fear of being murdered, maimed, or robbed.

darlarosa said:
Maybe I'm crazy but it's real fucked up that I can name ten close friends of mine off the top of my head who have been sexually assaulted, raped, or followed by creepy men.
So, how many of them fall into each category, because ultimately "was followed by someone creepy" just plain isn't the same thing. Especially given the leeway in what counts as "followed" and who counts as "creepy."
Followed by as in various accounts of being followed to a car or into a building until someone else walked by or in one case one of my friend's pulled out mace. The focus was clearly on them. They were alone. One was my roommate who called me to come out and meet her by our dorm as soon as possible to walk with her to the library because a dude she had never seen had been catcalling her earlier, and then started following her. (catcalling when walking somewhere earlier). I'm just saying a lot of behavior is threatening.
Also stats on violent crimes don't mean anything relevent depending on how the stats were collected . If you are doing an all around pie chart of violent crime as including sexual assault. Then the answer is yes because it is lumped in with other crimes. If we're talking about stats based on convictions, then we have to keep in mnd that I believ 70% of rape cases do not result in conviction (that is the stat they gave us for V-day anyway). Besides basically going "well men aren't afraid." Most men don't expect to have an unwanted hand reach into their pants, or to be pulled into a dark allyway, or drugged at a party. Society rarely sets it up where men are responsible for being robbed or women are responsible for being shot, etc. Both men and women are raped, but I'm pretty sure it's more common amongst women. According to RAINN.org roughly 17.7 women have been raped and 54% don't report to the police. 9 out of 10 rape victims are also women.



The-Traveling-Bard said:
darlarosa said:
Look at my picture than look back at me.

Okay, let me tell you why this is bullshit.

Because some people have the fear have also being killed every time they walk outside.
They can also have the fear of being beaten up and pushed around.

Everything is offensive to someone.

The problem is that people can't grow a thick skin and just turn a blind eye to it. They HAVE to control it because. TEH CHILDREN! I THE HOLY KNIGHT WITH MY PC WAND WILL PROTECT THEIR FEELINGS!

Err... No? You really don't need to protect their feelings. I am sure they can do that on their own.

The thing is the rating system is completely out of wack.
What is considered "Adult only" is pretty wide term.
Example of this is Halo/CoD while the game is violent it's still not as bad as.. The Last of Us and The Witcher.

So we have a loose and very warped idea of what is consider "Adults only."

Even Dragon Age Origins is pretty much a power house fantasy with very few in the singe numbers adult themes.
But over all, Dragon Age Origins is pretty childish.

My entire argument defensive is this.

Why is it okay for movies/books/tv shows to have rape but once it comes to games it's a big no-no?
Seriously. I want games to be treated on the same story respect and maturity that other story telling media gets.
Rape as mechanic? Okay, I can get on board with that and say I disagree.

Rape as a story plot? Yup. I find it acceptable. Why? BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS! DUH!

What did you expect when you walk into a forest full of male bandits and you're a women?
Sunshine and butterflies?
Are they suppose to walk over to you and hand you a cup of tea. Talk a little and go on their way?

Sadly the world isn't full of Rainbows and Unicorns.

"Us" gamers really need to start standing up and start pushing for more adult story telling and shrug off the bullshit around games. They're not any different from books and movies and should be treated with the same respect.

Also murder has serious mental illnesses and emotional trauma that comes along with it.
So nobody give me bullshit on how rape is means they're scared for life and blah, blah, blah.
It's a stupid argument because murder also carries on through out your entire life.
Never said murder doesn't come with trauma. Though, and this is horrible of me, I care more about the victims than the families. In one scenario you have families and the other actual victim. That's just how I prioritize. This is all just my opinion. Dragon Age wasn't particularly childish. It had lighthearted moments, built on particular themes. Nothing felt tossed away (except some of the origins impact later in game).


BTW saying I don't think they should do something isn't censorship. I'm not trying to legally stop them, or say doing it is wrong. I'm saying how most games would go about it is wrong. When most games can't depict well rounded females, or even male characters Expecting them to do anything else well...yeah. I have low expectation. AND I don't want someone tomake a fucking rape sim. (they can if they want to, but keep it low key) Because once again we gamers would end up having to fucking defend ourselves and go through then "video games are for kids" "but most gamers are over 25 and this game isn't for kids" "But video games...are...for...children?!?!?"
I think you and I are kinda on the same page. We both agree the stories need to do more. I'm not saying rape shouldn't ever be apart of a story. Yes it does happen. My point is keep it fucking classy. It's not hard to be considerate and it's even less hard to be mature. Let's not make rape seem like a fucking joke, and let's not use it as a fucking short cut for BS lazy writing. I think that rape, and its sad this is my biggest concern, will become an overblown cliche to try to coveror explain away a personality or character. Worse yet I think we would see a lot of "she's a woman so of course she gets raped" not for story or plot, but because that's what happens (society rarely acknowledges male victims fucked up as it is). 1 out of 6 American women have been raped/sexually assaulted, but I honestly do not want to see a slew of "of course she got raped, she's a woman". It becomes a fucking cliche and shit writing. I hate when amnesia is used in a story for Christ's sake because of the exact same reason. I just think rape deserves a bit more of respect and thought then fucking amnesia. Is it wrong to think that?
There's nothing wrong with saying "They're creators let them do whatever they want"
But unlike some people I don't like to take shit and eat it. Particularly if it concerns me. They can do what they want, but the chances of shit writing happening just become more real.

BTW I don't give a damn about protecting the children. I give a damn about hoping everyone who wants to play something can have a fun experience that hopefully doesn't bring them back to a horribly dark place. I'm not talking about being offended. I'm talking about regression. I'm talking about what happens when your sitting with your friend and something comes up. A poorly handled discussion/mention of rape or something...and she just bursts into tears and leaves the room to collect herself. Why don't you go tell her to get a thicker skin. That she should be over it. I have a friend who loves being a women's studies major, but at times can't deal with being in class for some discussions. I'm not saying the discussion is wrong, but when some asshole makes an asshole comment it gets worse than when talking about rape in a mature fashion. Telling her to just deal with it and get a "thicker skin" won't make her anxiety attacks stop and it won't stop her for regressing back to when she was assaulted. IF this happens with a proper depiction then it does. I just think it's more likely to happen if it's done in a shitty way. I never said don't depict it. I said depict it with care.


Everytime I make a comment like this....I feel like asking people to be considerate is like pulling teeth. "Why should I consider others they should just deal with it". It's just trying to be a bit more of a decent human being and thinking about something before doing. Asking developers to do the same is somehow wrong?
 

The-Traveling-Bard

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darlarosa said:
Eddie the head said:
darlarosa said:
Well :b I guess we're on the same page. Sadly it will become a cliche. Everything will at some point or another. There's no use on trying to stop it. I understand that male victims of rape don't get acknowledge but meh. Games aren't meant to solve social problems even though people are trying to do just that.

Although the term "Thicker skin" I think has too much a negative tone with people. Growing a thicker skin isn't just "Sucking it up and deal with it" but it's also learning HOW to deal with it in a reasonable manner. I think a lot of people just look at that phase and shrug it off. I generally use that phase as people just need to learn to cope and deal with offensive things/things that bother them in a better matter. Because shunning everything out and pretending it doesn't exist isn't exactly healthy. Ignoring the problem isn't fixing the problem. So the term "Thicker Skin" can do just that.

I have Anxiety attacks all the time. Slammed doors, loud bangs, sirens, etc. But instead of whining about it and force people to feel sorry for me cause I am a victim. I do grow a "thick skin" because I learn to deal with it.

But yeah, I see what you're saying that

Also that comment isn't all directed at you. :b I need to learn to separate that two next time. (Like the ending of my comment.)
 

Eddie the head

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darlarosa said:
Eddie the head said:
darlarosa said:
To me rape is a form of torture, and murder is murder. Torture is worse than murder because you make a person live with it.
That's subjective at best. The fear of dying might be much worse for some people then the mental trauma you would experience form torture. For me out of the two to quote Tim form Mogworld "I kind of don't want to die." Yes it would suck to be tortured, but if I die I just don't "exist" anymore.
Hence the phrase "to me". It is subjective.
The "to me" part if referring to you thinking that rape is torture. In this context you're flat out saying "Torture is worse than murder." If that's not what you mean then by all means go back and edit it. But it's not what you're saying right now at this point.
 

Chris Tian

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darlarosa said:
Chris Tian said:
This is complete and utter nonsense, being alive is always superior to being dead, because only if you are alive there is a chance of getting better, regardless of how slim that chance may be.

I am closely related to a rapevictim and we, her close family and friends, and her are very very happy that she is still alive.
Subjective. I know a few who don't "recover" and knew someone who killed herself.. n general putting rape/murder aside. The superiority of life is debatable. Some people full heartedly believe that death hold things better than life For some people life holds nothing but repetition and deadness inside. It's philosophical perspective.
Though I'm glad your friend was able to continue on with her life. Plenty do happily. But some don't

I never said actually that people would rather be dead than alive (I do't think). I think I said for me, in my eyes, torture and rape are worse than murder. The acts themselves. Death can slow or fast, but when it takes you that is it. Torture and rape leave lingering pain and mental scars. To me that makes it worse. People keep responding that death is worse because it's death, but that's their take on it. Death is sad but it's one moment. Or a beautiful long aria stretched out before death claims you. Maybe there is nothing after or maybe there is something regardless deah is one thing. Torture and rape have so many other things, so much fall out, and to me that makes it worse.
Nobody knows what "being dead" is like and what death holds exactly, but we all have to agree that it's an entirely different state of existance or non-existance. Thats why the whole death>suffering train of thought misses the mark, you cant really compare being dead and suffering. Being dead does not end your suffering, it ends your entire existance.

When I say being alive is always superior I mean that in a more or less statistical way.

Even the most emotionally or physically crippeled victims of torture or rape have always at least a theoretical chance of getting better, even if they decide not to take that chance. On the other hand, no murder victim has ever the chance of getting better and has no choice in the matter.

Thats why its not really a subjective issue like you say, even in the cases where the victims killed themselfes. They decided that their chances for recovery are to small, but they still had the chance and thus had greater chances than a murder victim. I think most of society agrees with me here, since in most nations I know of murder is punished harder than rape.

You say its your personal opinion that torture/rape is worse than murder and on a larger scale death is preferable to sufferng for you, does that mean if you now had the choice between being brutally tortured for days but surviving and getting killed quick and painless you would choose the later?
 

Ultrajoe

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Magenera said:
If you are viewing rape as a social construct then you are off the mark badly. Humans aren't the only animals that does rape, duck's, dolphin's, and several other animal's. Also why do people say rape is about power, when it's clearly about sex, by any means.
"Accounts from both offenders and victims of what occurs during a rape suggest that issues of power, anger, and sexuality are important in understanding the rapist's behavior. All three issues seem to operate in every rape, but the proportion varies and one issue seems to dominate in each instance. The authors ranked accounts from 133 offenders and 92 victims for the dominant issue and found that the offenses could be categorized as power rape (sexuality used primarily to express power) or anger rape (use of sexuality to express anger). There were no rapes in which sex was the dominant issue; sexuality was always in the service of other, nonsexual needs."

http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/article.aspx?articleid=155978

From the American Journal of Psychology. Emphasis is mine.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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4RM3D said:
To me rape is on the level of child pornography (exactly that actually it's sex without mutual consent) it's not something that needs to be aired in popular media.

It's sick and wrong. Violence towards sexy women in video games is something we should move away from not towards.
 

Gorrath

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Gorrath said:
Yes.

There are people who find child porn hot too. Doesn't mean it should be in games or any other media.


Moonlight Butterfly said:
4RM3D said:
To me rape is on the level of child pornography (exactly that actually it's sex without mutual consent) it's not something that needs to be aired in popular media.

It's sick and wrong. Violence towards sexy women in video games is something we should move away from not towards.
I'm not sure what to make of your comment here. In order to have 'child pronography' you'd need to have an actual child being sexually assaulted/raped, which is in no way the same as a fake depiction of an act of rape. In one case you have a real, actual person and in the other you have pixels or drawings or actors. Child pornography is a crime and depicting rape, even as a fetish, is not. I'm just not seeing the correlation here.

I agree that child porn shouldn't be in anything, ever. (Though that is not to say that it isn't okay to have non-pornographic depictions of adult/child relationships. See: Leon/The Professional and Lolita) I think we are going to have to disagree on the "sick/wrong" part though. Literally millions of people find the fantasy of rape to be sexually exctiting and I don't think all of those people are sick, nor do I think they are wrong for enjoying their very legal fantasies.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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Gorrath said:
Rape is a criminal act the last time I checked. To paraphrase you literally millions of people have been raped and don't need to see it fetishised in video games.

Rape is as wrong as child pornography. 'pixelised' or otherwise.
 

Gorrath

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
Gorrath said:
Rape is a criminal act the last time I checked. To paraphrase you literally millions of people have been raped and don't need to see it fetishised in video games.

Rape is as wrong as child pornography. 'pixelised' or otherwise.
I don't understand what the criminality of actual rape has to do with a fictionalized portrayal of it though. We may as well make the argument that real murder is illegal and millions of real people have been murdered so we shouldn't have video games or any other media that have murder.

If real people who have been victimized don't want to see that kind of thing in games, they can simply not buy the games. I fail to see how a fictional portray of anything can possibly be as bad as actual abuse, but then it seems that you are comparing actual rape to child porn (a valid comparison) and then substituting fictionalized rape for actual rape.

It does not seem like it should be any more difficult for people who don't enjoy certain material to aviod it than it is for me to avoid material that I don't like. I don't see why fictionalized content of any subject should simply cease to exist simply because I don't care for it. I don't particularly like movies that attempt to show wartime battles in a realistic light because of some experiences I've had in my life. I also can't watch movies which have a heavy focus on torture for the same reason. I would never say that such things shouldn't exist for the entertainment of otehrs who do enjoy that kind of thing though.

When we make ourselves the moral arbiters of fiction, we open the doors to censorship, which is toxic to a free and open society.
 

4RM3D

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Moonlight Butterfly said:
To me rape is on the level of child pornography (exactly that actually it's sex without mutual consent) it's not something that needs to be aired in popular media.

It's sick and wrong. Violence towards sexy women in video games is something we should move away from not towards.
It isn't something we should move towards or move away from. It just is. It doesn't have to be popular, it just have to be possible without evoking a double standard. Maybe the movie/game just wants to depict the sick and wrong; the cruelty of the world.
 

Moonlight Butterfly

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4RM3D said:
Moonlight Butterfly said:
To me rape is on the level of child pornography (exactly that actually it's sex without mutual consent) it's not something that needs to be aired in popular media.

It's sick and wrong. Violence towards sexy women in video games is something we should move away from not towards.
It isn't something we should move towards or move away from. It just is. It doesn't have to be popular, it just have to be possible without evoking a double standard. Maybe the movie/game just wants to depict the sick and wrong; the cruelty of the world.
As long as that's how it's portrayed.

I certainly don't think it's something the player should be able to do.