Rare: Lag Not an Issue for Kinect

[Jaqen Hghar]

You now, I went on Google yesterday and searched up some Kinect hands-on previews from E3 2010. You know what I found? Largely positive previews. Were there some issues, and some complaints? Of course! But nobody could deny it was fun to play.

Secondly: As a 'hard-core' gamer, you have to remember: This isn't for you. Microsoft isn't making a secret about it: This wasn't made for hard-core gamers. It can be used for the hard-core crowd (As seen with the Forza Demo, and will be seen how it works with Fable 3), but that's not their primary intent. Not every peripheral is made for hard-core gamers, and they are the ones complaining the most! I see plenty of interested people who aren't gamers, my wife included. That is what Microsoft is looking to get into.

And, you know what? I'm totally looking forward to this. Not for controller replacement, but for controller enhancement. Not to replace my controller, but to tag along with it, adding to the experience. The Forza demo teased it, and Fable 3 will show it (It uses Kinect and a regular controller). Plus the sports game, the Ubisoft fitness game, and the dance game all look like a blast!

Everyone is so freaking negative when they haven't even tried it yet.
Geez.

Posts like this makes me less ashamed to be a gamer. Thank you sir.

It seems "hardcore" gamers these days only ***** and moan about new things. Kinect will surely start off as a "casual" minigame driven device, but who knows what it will turn into? Because it doesn't have an actual controller component, it can be used with your precious controller as well. This is something "hardcore" gamers seem to forget.
I am waiting to heard the official price though. I'm not made of money. But if they also announce a Black and White game then I'll buy it no matter what it costs.

 

[jamesworkshop]

Lol, Microsoft is just trolling people.

It's so sad they are considering themselves hotshots whilst they are failing hardcore. Sure, Kinect seems amazing for Dashboard intergration but for gaming itself. Hell no.

150ms is just painful for any known PC-gamer. It's game-breaking and when they claim the lag is not an issue, they are the greatest bullshitters on the world. IT IS an issue. But of course, lets see how it works first, gimmick or something revolutionary?

actually to the console market it isn't that bad

Burnout Paradise 67ms
BioShock (frame-locked) 133ms
BioShock (unlocked) as low as 67ms
Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare 67ms-84ms
Call of Duty: World at War 67ms-100ms
Call of Juarez: Bound in Blood 100ms
Forza Motorsport 2 67ms
Geometry Wars 2 67ms
Guitar Hero: Aerosmith 67ms
Grand Theft Auto IV 133ms-200ms
Halo 3 100ms-150ms
Left 4 Dead 100ms-133ms
LEGO Batman 133ms
Mirror's Edge 133ms
Street Fighter IV 67ms
Soul Calibur IV 67ms-84ms
Unreal Tournament 3 100ms-133ms
X-Men Origins: Wolverine 133ms

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-lag-factor-article?page=3

100-150ms in Halo 3 and none of those result take into account the lag introduced by LCD/plasma screens having to upscale the images to 1080p




In-game latency, or the level of response in our controls, is one of the most crucial elements in game-making, not just in the here and now, but for the future too. It's fair to say that players today have become conditioned to what the truly hardcore PC gamers would consider to be almost unacceptably high levels of latency to the point where cloud gaming services such as OnLive and Gaikai rely heavily upon it.

The average videogame runs at 30FPS, and appears to have an average lag in the region of 133ms. On top of that is additional delay from the display itself, bringing the overall latency to around 166ms. Assuming that the most ultra-PC gaming set-up has a latency less than one third of that, this is good news for cloud gaming in that there's a good 80ms or so window for game video to be transmitted from client to server.

But in the meantime, while overall "pings" between console and gamer remain rather high, the bottom line seems to be that players are now used to it, to the point where developers - like Infinity Ward - centred on getting the very lowest possible latencies are using that to give their games an edge over the competition. Call of Duty's ultra-crisp response is one of the key reasons why it's a cut above its rivals, and it's a core part of a gameplay package that will once again top the charts this Christmas

 

[Onyx Oblivion]

It's so sad they are considering themselves hotshots whilst they are failing hardcore. Sure, Kinect seems amazing for Dashboard intergration but for gaming itself. Hell no.

You now, I went on Google yesterday and searched up some Kinect hands-on previews from E3 2010. You know what I found? Largely positive previews. Were there some issues, and some complaints? Of course! But nobody could deny it was fun to play.

Secondly: As a 'hard-core' gamer, you have to remember: This isn't for you. Microsoft isn't making a secret about it: This wasn't made for hard-core gamers. It can be used for the hard-core crowd (As seen with the Forza Demo, and will be seen how it works with Fable 3), but that's not their primary intent. Not every peripheral is made for hard-core gamers, and they are the ones complaining the most! I see plenty of interested people who aren't gamers, my wife included. That is what Microsoft is looking to get into.

And, you know what? I'm totally looking forward to this. Not for controller replacement, but for controller enhancement. Not to replace my controller, but to tag along with it, adding to the experience. The Forza demo teased it, and Fable 3 will show it (It uses Kinect and a regular controller). Plus the sports game, the Ubisoft fitness game, and the dance game all look like a blast!

Everyone is so freaking negative when they haven't even tried it yet.
Geez.

You've said what I wanted to say...but actually managed to figure out how to put it into words.

It's not made for us. Oddly, the only real concern I have with Kinect is the set up...I sit 2 feet away from my TV, since it's right next to my bed. How will I set it up to use it, if I get it? I can't. There's not enough room! I'll have to turn my TV...And use the little open area at the foot of my bed. ARGH.

Not everyone plays games in a giant, open living room...Note to Microsoft.

The Wii works well enough sitting down, though.

Well, since Move is basically the Wii...That should work fine sitting down, too.

 

[Gabanuka]

Its not really good for long time gameing is it? Can only be good for sports games really, can't really play games like Oblivion on it can you?

OP: 10 quid on it laging

 

[Jared]

Lag isnt something I was worried about...but...its nice to know none the less.

Just give us some proper games for us to care about!

 

[jords]

Yeah, because if the lag was too much and the game sucked, I'd like so totally tell you.

I'm going to reserve judgement until, well I'm not interested anyway since my mouse is already the best input device so far.

 

[Say Anything]

Well, I certainly won't have trouble with lag.
Because I'm not getting it! Ha! Haha. I'm so witty.

hahaha. I couldn't put it better myself.

 

[Treblaine]

According to Burton, the lag on Kinect Sports is set at 150ms, which I must admit seems a little high to the PC gamer in me, but must be quite reasonable when you're actually playing the game.

FFFFFFFFF-FFF-FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!

That is the EXACT SAME LAG as Killzone 2 had... a game that is roundly criticised has having the worst lag in recent gaming history. Many HDTVs screen have their own lag of about 50-70milliseconds... that adds up to 1/5th of a second lag, that is WAY TOO DAMN MUCH for games that are supposed to be about fluid and responsive movement!!!

ESPECIALLY RHYTHM GAMES, like Dance Central... a game I formerly had great interest in.

And is the 150ms the lag JUST for the peripheral? is the lag of the graphics rendering added on top? Holy crap, this is bad. Laggy Multiplayer - likely P2P based - will be unbearable.

 

[Treblaine]

It's so sad they are considering themselves hotshots whilst they are failing hardcore. Sure, Kinect seems amazing for Dashboard intergration but for gaming itself. Hell no.

You now, I went on Google yesterday and searched up some Kinect hands-on previews from E3 2010. You know what I found? Largely positive previews. Were there some issues, and some complaints? Of course! But nobody could deny it was fun to play.

Secondly: As a 'hard-core' gamer, you have to remember: This isn't for you. Microsoft isn't making a secret about it: This wasn't made for hard-core gamers. It can be used for the hard-core crowd (As seen with the Forza Demo, and will be seen how it works with Fable 3), but that's not their primary intent. Not every peripheral is made for hard-core gamers, and they are the ones complaining the most! I see plenty of interested people who aren't gamers, my wife included. That is what Microsoft is looking to get into.

The problem is up till now the Xbox 360 has been almost entirely targeted at a hardcore audience.

If this IS for the casual audience (who likely don't have a 360) the asking price is (likely) going to be VERY large:

New Xbox 360 = $300
Kinect (100:1 bet) = $150
Gold Membership = $50

That's $500! The "Hardcore" may buy gaming PCs and consoles with all peripherals for that much but come on... the Wii sold in 2006 at half that price of $250. Still they are undercutting them even PS3's Move Bundle at $400.

I am convinced the Xbox 360 is not going for the same market as Wii, rather appeal to the Casual gaming in the hardcore users... the same people who play Guitar Hero and Rock Band and other rhythm games. They are the target of games like Dance Central from the same developers, Harmonix.

I can see those "Xbot" frat guys using Kinect to "get in shape" whereas Wii Fit went with the more - how do I put this - "less hardcore" zen-like Yoga exercises, something that goes well with Ikea furniture. No, it Kinect is going to have any success it's going to capitalise on the aims of douchebag Xbox Live users.

It's just a matter of time before there is a weight training Kinect game, an online leaderboard of pushups or other callisthenics, counted by the software and recorded as video so cheaters won't last long.

I mean Microsoft has made a deal* with ESPN, ultimate in manliness channel, you won't find yoga on there, actually, manly is unfair as loads of totally straight women apparently watch ESPN. It's just a serious channel about sweating, competition, conflict and extreme shit. Hardcore.

I think that is what Kinect could be, more casual, but in the sense that competitive sports are more casual.

(*the deal is suspect, apparently in the USA only Xbox users who get their internet from ComCast can get the service.)

 

[VanityGirl]

First, three demerits for copying the Wii BLATANTLY. At least give it a marginally more creative name.

Ten more demerits for having more lag than said copied game as well. At least do better than the "prototype" technology used years ago.

Everyone wants motion controls. We all joke about it, but each console has their own set of motion controls and game. WE joke how the Move is a Wiimote, but it it supposed to be different.
Hopefully these new technologies will reach the 'hardcore' markets.

 

[Baby Tea]

The problem is up till now the Xbox 360 has been almost entirely targeted at a hardcore audience.

If this IS for the casual audience (who likely don't have a 360) the asking price is (likely) going to be VERY large:

New Xbox 360 = $300
Kinect (100:1 bet) = $150
Gold Membership = $50

That's $500! The "Hardcore" may buy gaming PCs and consoles with all peripherals for that much but come on... the Wii sold in 2006 at half that price of $250. Still they are undercutting them even PS3's Move Bundle at $400.

Ok, first of all, the 360 bundle which includes Kinect will, if the 'leaks' and rumors are true, be $400.
Secondly, you don't need LIVE gold for that. So cut that price right out.
Third, the Kinect does two player out of the box. If someone is getting a PS3 with Move in the hopes of playing an active game with their friends or something, it'll be an extra $80 for another Move-wand and Move-chuck. That's $480. Kinect is cheaper. Even if two player isn't in mind, they are the same price.

Fourth, think about it like this: People want to get a house-hold gaming system that everyone can play. From teenager Jimmy to Jimmy's younger sister Stacy. A Wii might appeal to Stacy, but not so much to Jimmy who likes Gears and Halo. Kinect allows for Stacy to play games she likes, and Jimmy to play his.

Or, if you consider the average age of gamers being around 30, now these parents who game can still play the games they want, while letting their kids play something a bit more age appropriate. If I had kids, this is absolutely something I'd be looking at for my 360. Incidentally, I'm looking at it anyways, since I have a pile of nieces and nephews! Plus my wife isn't huge into gaming, but something like this would be great for her! As well as my sisters, and even my mom!

You're absolutely right that the 360 has been marketed to the 'hard-core'. They've got a large and great fan-base in that department. Now, they want to branch out a bit! Those 'hard-core' gamers have friends who don't play games, or kids, or have brothers and sisters who aren't into games! And now there is something to get them involved. Way back in the day, Microsoft said they wanted to make a console that would be the center of entertainment for the home. And slowly, but surely, they are making those steps! Kinect is one of those steps.

I am convinced that the Kinect can operate in conjunction with a regular controller in creative ways to 'appeal' to the hard-core, but the target market is obvious: Casual players. The younger siblings of current Xbox owners. The kids of parent gamers. Every hands-on preview I've read says how fun it is. Of course there will be issues, and probably even 'shovelware' (Though I can't understand why that gets people mad, since you aren't forced to buy a thing), but it works, and it's fun.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Rare? As in Rare Ware? wow... they have officially been raped.
Rare are creating shovelware. Never thought I'd see the day!

Heh...the irony.

You do realize that Rare programmed a great deal of shovelware titles for the original NES, right?
I won't blame you or anyone else though; people mostly remember Battletoads.

 

[SomeBoredGuy]

Oh Rare... How could you do this? Tell me it isn't true. Rare, the creators of the legendary Banjo-Kazooie and Goldeneye are creating Kinect shovelware!

*runs off crying*

 

[HK_01]

Oh, Kinect Sports, definitely proof that this won't be a copy of the Wii...

Also, what are you doing, Rare?? You used to be a good developer that released quality games.

 

[Chamale]

Those 'hard-core' gamers have friends who don't play games, or kids, or have brothers and sisters who aren't into games!

This. In my life, I've gone from the NES controller with 8 buttons, to the PS1 controller with 14 buttons, to the PS2 controller with 14 buttons and 2 joysticks, to the Xbox 360 controller with 11 buttons, 2 joysticks, 2 triggers, and 2 bumpers. To someone who hasn't evolved their hands through the many controllers, it's very frustrating to just pick up a controller and play. Games based on Guitar Hero-style controls, or motion controls, are appropriate for these people.

That said, I'm worried about creative resources being shifted from hardcore games to the new Kinect market. With the Wii, we saw this happen, as developers produced a lot of shovelware while trying to suck too much blood out of the motion controls.

 

[Truly-A-Lie]

I thought lag wasn't an issue because in all the demos Kinect reads so fast the images move before you do. Oh wait.
Poor jokes aside, I found Kinect's showing at the conference to be totally embarrassing. It bored the audience so badly they had to be bought back with free consoles, everyone I know in Microsoft's intended casual audience have never heard of E3, so dedicating so much time to it was pointless.

And it also patronises that audience, sure they may find modern controllers too complicated, that doesn't mean all they can understand is running on the spot and waving their arms at the screen while a fictional tiger pretends to lick them. We should be making games to introduce them to what we have, not isolate them by making retarded, soulless games solely for them. That keeps them in the mindset that games are toys, for brief entertainment while you make a fool of yourself for a few minutes. A game like Flower is a far better game to bring in the casual audience to what gaming is actually about than any of the crap they showed for Kinect.

 

[scotth266]

Snip.

I really have to write a rant about the whole negative reaction towards motion controls.

Btw, the pricing for the Kinect will apparently be revealed somewhere around August 18th. So barring a leak from Microsoft, don't bother crossing your fingers until then

 

[ark123]

I think nobody cares about anything regarding the kinect until "Can we use it sitting down" is addressed.