Reason # 299,000 to the nth power why suits shouldn’t make artistic choices

hanselthecaretaker

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The dog.

It just wouldn’t have been the same if they cut it. I think this ends up ruining a lot of movies where the creatives aren’t able to get their way. Or at the very least the movies might end up generic or shallow next to what they could have been.
 
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tippy2k2

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...that's like...the entire basis of the movie.

I think we can all get behind an action hero murdering a shit ton of people for killing their dog (or at least can understand the mindset behind Wick and his actions).

Even for an action movie, I think that most everyone would think "You know what, murdering a couple dozen people because they stole your car feels a bit like overkill".
 
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Bob_McMillan

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I'm trying to think like a "suit" right now and I can't figure out why they'd think the dog getting killed would have affected the profitability of the film. Is this even a thing? Outrage over animals dying in movies?
 
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BrawlMan

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That's the problem with executives, they think they're there for everyone's benefit or what the audience wants. When it's really just themselves and they're stupid money tree. Yet they'll let a whole bunch of other dumb bull crap slide.
 

hanselthecaretaker

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I'm trying to think like a "suit" right now and I can't figure out why they'd think the dog getting killed would have affected the profitability of the film. Is this even a thing? Outrage over animals dying in movies?

They probably thought it would "upset" too many people. Well yeah it did....within the context of the plot, which people have proven to be smart enough to distinguish from real life drama. It also ended up fueling the rest of the movie since everyone wanted to see Wick murder-death-kill anyone within one iota's connection of his pup's tragic death.

It's about putting trust in your audience that they're not idiots, mostly. However if they put this shit in a kid's show, then maybe the execs would have a point.
 

SupahEwok

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I'm trying to think like a "suit" right now and I can't figure out why they'd think the dog getting killed would have affected the profitability of the film. Is this even a thing? Outrage over animals dying in movies?
I knew a guy who refused to play Divinity Original Sin 2 past the point where a cat who starts following you around gets blown up as a joke. Think he demanded a refund too, but not sure. He was mad.

Those folks exist. Emough to dint the profitability of a 50 million dollar film? Dunno about that.
 

happyninja42

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I'm trying to think like a "suit" right now and I can't figure out why they'd think the dog getting killed would have affected the profitability of the film. Is this even a thing? Outrage over animals dying in movies?
Yes, there is an outrage over it. There is a website called Does The Dog Die? And it's SOLE purpose, is to notify people ahead of time, if a film that contains dogs, kills the dog or not. Because for some people, that REALLY upsets them, and it informs them on whether they should see a film or not. I think it's sort of branched out to cover any kind of pet-like animal that might be in the film, not just dogs.

Now, I don't know the percentage of movie goers that site is for, and if it's enough to actually impact ticket sales? *shrugs* But I mean, yes, to answer your question, people don't like that stuff. They also don't like actually seeing children coming to harm in films. That's why they will usually cut to a shot of a burned child's doll, amidst rubble, to indicate that a child was killed there. It's also why most films don't let pregnant women get hurt, and bubble them and their child in a Plot Armor of impenetrable scale.

Because some shit really bothers some people, like a lot. And they don't like seeing it in something they spent money on.
 

Hawki

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Y'know, I get why it's the case, but isn't it a bit odd that we're fine with heroes killing mooks by the dozen in films, but if a dog dies, everyone loses it?
 

happyninja42

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Y'know, I get why it's the case, but isn't it a bit odd that we're fine with heroes killing mooks by the dozen in films, but if a dog dies, everyone loses it?
*shrugs* Humans are weird. For me, I think it boils down to the fact that I know the animal isn't really aware of what's going on. That they are basically pawns in a situation totally outside of their capacity to ever understand, and unable to control at all. It's not like they were being arrogant or stupid, and "brought this on themselves" like what happens to a lot of humans in films. They are just, there, often literally on a leash, brought there by a human. Same thing for a child, which is why they are often in the same category in films. They don't really have full agency most of the time, so if bad things befall them, it's usually do to someone else putting them in that situation.
At least that's the best rationale I've been able to come up with for myself, regarding my reaction to that kind of thing. I acknowledge it's weird, but I also acknowledge that animals have never tried to sexually molest me in a library when I was 12, they also haven't tried to threaten my life, or the life of my mother in a drug fueled, schizophrenic rage, and they also haven't broken into my car and stolen hundreds of dollars in CD's. Humans however, have done those things to me, and tons of other shitty things, to all of us. Dogs have only ever been friendly and trusting of me, as have most animals, not asking anything from me, other than food, and possibly belly rubs.

So yeah, my animal brain reflexively hopes the animals get out of whatever crazy situation the asshole humans have put them in, usually without any consideration for the animals themselves. And hopes at least the non-asshole humans get out as well.
 

BrawlMan

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Y'know, I get why it's the case, but isn't it a bit odd that we're fine with heroes killing mooks by the dozen in films, but if a dog dies, everyone loses it?

So yeah, my animal brain reflexively hopes the animals get out of whatever crazy situation the asshole humans have put them in, usually without any consideration for the animals themselves. And hopes at least the non-asshole humans get out as well.
Honestly, animals dying usually do not bother me, even if caused by humans hands. But there are moments that had me upset or sad. The exception was the prototype for Hardcore Henry. I'm a bit disappointed this scene was not used for the final film.

 
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Trunkage

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John Wick is a very average movie thats 30 years out of date and I really dont care about his dog.

Happy that it was good for some. Killing the dog or not wouldn't have helped or hindered the movie to me in my eyes
 

twistedmic

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Honestly, animals dying usually do not bother me, even if caused by humans hands. But there are moments that had me upset or sad. The exception was the prototype for Hardcore Henry. I'm a bit disappointed this scene was not used for the final film.
Two things really matter to me when an animal dies in a movie- the manner of death and the emotional attachment I have developed to that animal. The puppy dying in John Wick didn't bother me too much because she's not in the movie long enough for me to really get invested. The end of Old Yeller and Where the Red Fern Grows are different matters entirely since we were with those dogs for the entirety of the movie. It also didn't bother me that much when the cat is killed in The Boondock Saints because we barely see the cat.
If the animal is killed (character. not actor) quickly- like the Boondock Saints cat or just about any horse in a fantasy or medieval movie I'm mostly okay. But if the animal is killed slowly or in a cruel/torturous way- like Artax in The Neverending Story it hits me much harder.
 

happyninja42

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John Wick is a very average movie thats 30 years out of date and I really dont care about his dog.

Happy that it was good for some. Killing the dog or not wouldn't have helped or hindered the movie to me in my eyes
I found the first JW to be enjoyable, but 2 and 3 were incredibly boring to me, and just felt like an extended, feature length action scene for no reason. At least the first JW had a motivation for why he was doing it, even if it was just a dog.
 

Bob_McMillan

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Because some shit really bothers some people, like a lot. And they don't like seeing it in something they spent money on.
I mean obviously there will be people who will be bothered by violent acts. I've made the mistake before of showing people something that genuinely triggered them and I deeply regretted it. But isn't that the entire point of the R rating?

Anyway, I was more of looking for actual incidents when a movie caused widespread outrage due to something like this. Fearing that your movie won't do well because of a dog being killed seems like a very specific worry. Although I do live in a country that does not place as much importance on pets as America.
 

happyninja42

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I mean obviously there will be people who will be bothered by violent acts. I've made the mistake before of showing people something that genuinely triggered them and I deeply regretted it. But isn't that the entire point of the R rating?
In a general sense yes R rating is supposed to state that. As a blanket "shit will be potentially disturbing in this film", but there are some generally agreed upon "lines you don't cross" in most cultures. Where, no matter the amount of disclaimers you put on the thing, they will still be upset about it. Violence to animals and children, is one of those sort of unspoken tropes that you avoid at all costs, if you are wanting to avoid any controversy/negative press. I'm not saying it's always the case, or that it always is a problem, but it's something that seems to be common, at least in US culture. You can see it in the things you DON'T normally see, and how those events, when they actually happen, are depicted. The above mentioned Burned Dolly to convey child death for example. There are exceptions of course, like the Nuke Nightmare scene in Terminator 2, where you see the playground get dusted, but that was on purpose, they were trying to convey the horror of such an event happening. And when it's done well, it can be very impacting. Like John Wick 1, and T2.

Anyway, I was more of looking for actual incidents when a movie caused widespread outrage due to something like this. Fearing that your movie won't do well because of a dog being killed seems like a very specific worry. Although I do live in a country that does not place as much importance on pets as America.
Uuuuuh....*ponders* not that I can think of offhand? I mean, there probably are some examples out there? Not for something like animal violence that I can recall, but the most recent examples I can think of, where a single element of a film, caused a big PR stink, are usually of a sex/sexual orientation nature, like the live action Beauty and the Beast. Or in the nerd rage category, a choice of a gender/race for a character, canonically depicted as something else.

So to answer your question in the broad sense, yes? In that yes some movies end up having negative PR (and possibly sales) as a result of a single story element, that rubs the public the wrong way. But to the specific question of "was this ever about a dog?" I...really can't recall.
 

Ringo

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Executives have the power though. Everything is a fight if it goes against the presumed marketability of the film. It would be nice if there were more adventurous independent producers out there, but they have to be cool with not turning a profit because the general public isn't very interested in challenging or unusual films. But the dog thing seems silly for a film whose selling point is brutal murder.

On the topic of animal abuse or death in film, it doesn't bother me if it's fictional. If it's actually happening, it depends on the animal and the context. Fish and fowl I don't care about. Mammals, it depends on the context. Slaughter is ok. Things like tripping horses or killing animals for the shot bugs me though. I have seen at least one film I can recall where they straight up killed a real dog for the scene and that bothered me.
 

Secondhand Revenant

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I mean, it sound like they gave an opinion that wasn't great and some pressure, the directors were still able to move forward and convince them. Title seems overly dramatic for that