Regarding a certain popular theory about Jon Snow. (Possible Spoilers)

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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So I am pretty certain any fan of the books and/or show already knows the popular theory that Jon Snow is not Ned's son but is the son of his Sister Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Targaryan. R+L=J if you will.

And alot of the hints kinda indicate that it is all but certain to be true.

But then I have thought of the one thing that might debunked this theory entirely.

For one Jon Snow certainly does not look like a son of Lyanna and Rheagar, specifically how both people were described.

Lyanna is said to have Northern Red hair which all Starks and or Northern born peoples have and Rheagar has silver blonde hair which is something always associated with Targaryan blood. And both most likely have blue eyes.

But Jon has Dark Brown/Black hair and Dark Brown/Black Eyes, nothing in relation to Stark or Targaryan traits.

And in this show seed is strong and you can tell who a person is by their looks and appearence. Such as Lannisters always having Golden Blonde hair (which is what Ned Stark deduced when finding out that Joffery is not a true Baratheon)

Heck in the books they keep describing as Jon looking more and more like Ned himself, to quote his wife's thoughts:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse"

So unless people can explain why Jon has Dark Hair and iris this could debunk the theory for me.
 

DrownedAmmet

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Samtemdo8 said:
So I am pretty certain any fan of the books and/or show already knows the popular theory that Jon Snow is not Ned's son but is the son of his Sister Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Targaryan. R+L=J if you will.

And alot of the hints kinda indicate that it is all but certain to be true.

But then I have thought of the one thing that might debunked this theory entirely.

For one Jon Snow certainly does not look like a son of Lyanna and Rheagar, specifically how both people were described.

Lyanna is said to have Northern Red hair which all Starks and or Northern born peoples have and Rheagar has silver blonde hair which is something always associated with Targaryan blood. And both most likely have blue eyes.

But Jon has Dark Brown/Black hair and Dark Brown/Black Eyes, nothing in relation to Stark or Targaryan traits.

And in this show seed is strong and you can tell who a person is by their looks and appearence. Such as Lannisters always having Golden Blonde hair (which is what Ned Stark deduced when finding out that Joffery is not a true Baratheon)

Heck in the books they keep describing as Jon looking more and more like Ned himself, to quote his wife's thoughts:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse"

So unless people can explain why Jon has Dark Hair and iris this could debunk the theory for me.
Genetics usually isn't a 100% accurate thing like with the Baratheons always having black hair

The Starks are different, if you look at Neds actual kids, Arya has dark hair like a Stark, while Sansa has the red hair of a Tully. I'm no genetics expert but for the theory to be true Rheagar would only need to carry the recessive gene for dark hair to match up with Lyannas recessive dark hair gene to make Jon
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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DrownedAmmet said:
Samtemdo8 said:
So I am pretty certain any fan of the books and/or show already knows the popular theory that Jon Snow is not Ned's son but is the son of his Sister Lyanna Stark and Rheagar Targaryan. R+L=J if you will.

And alot of the hints kinda indicate that it is all but certain to be true.

But then I have thought of the one thing that might debunked this theory entirely.

For one Jon Snow certainly does not look like a son of Lyanna and Rheagar, specifically how both people were described.

Lyanna is said to have Northern Red hair which all Starks and or Northern born peoples have and Rheagar has silver blonde hair which is something always associated with Targaryan blood. And both most likely have blue eyes.

But Jon has Dark Brown/Black hair and Dark Brown/Black Eyes, nothing in relation to Stark or Targaryan traits.

And in this show seed is strong and you can tell who a person is by their looks and appearence. Such as Lannisters always having Golden Blonde hair (which is what Ned Stark deduced when finding out that Joffery is not a true Baratheon)

Heck in the books they keep describing as Jon looking more and more like Ned himself, to quote his wife's thoughts:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned's sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse"

So unless people can explain why Jon has Dark Hair and iris this could debunk the theory for me.
Genetics usually isn't a 100% accurate thing like with the Baratheons always having black hair

The Starks are different, if you look at Neds actual kids, Arya has dark hair like a Stark, while Sansa has the red hair of a Tully. I'm no genetics expert but for the theory to be true Rheagar would only need to carry the recessive gene for dark hair to match up with Lyannas recessive dark hair gene to make Jon
You are referring to their book incarnations right because if we factor Robb Stark he has Reddish hair while in the show its more dark brown.
 

WolfThomas

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The seed is strong is just an expression. Not science. Jon Arryn refers to the fact that in every known Lannister and Baratheon union in previous history, the children have black hair. It is referencing that one set of circumstances. It doesn't mean the Baratheon genes always come out on top on other pairings. It doesn't mean the Starks or other houses have magical appearance traits. It is referencing a single situation in which Jon and Ned required an ancient book of lineages to recongise.

We see that Dornish and Targaryan pairings results in Baelor "Breakspear" who only has a speckling of Targ white in his Dornish Black hair. Maekar his brother on the other hand has the full white. Or Aegon the Unlikely's son Duncan (the Prince of Dragonflies) who had blackhair (from his Blackwood mother) when his father had the pure white. So Targaryan genes can be suppressed.

In the books, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Robb all have Tully apperances, with Arya looking like Jon and her late aunt Lyanna. Lyanna in the books isn't a redhead.

So Jon can be a Targ-Stark mix and look the way he is.

Because the evidence in the book series is pretty convincing, from Ned's inner monologues about Rhaegar and the prophecy in the house of the Undying of a Blue Rose in the White Wall.
 

Jute88

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Where did you get Lyanna having red hair? A Song of Ice Fire wiki doesn't mention it, and I thought she had the traditional Stark looks (dark brown hair). I've never heard of Starks being red heads. Robb, Sansa (and maybe Rickon and Bran) got their looks from their mom's side, the Tullys.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Samtemdo8 said:
For one Jon Snow certainly does not look like a son of Lyanna and Rheagar, specifically how both people were described.

Lyanna is said to have Northern Red hair which all Starks and or Northern born peoples have and Rheagar has silver blonde hair which is something always associated with Targaryan blood. And both most likely have blue eyes.

But Jon has Dark Brown/Black hair and Dark Brown/Black Eyes, nothing in relation to Stark or Targaryan traits.
WolfThomas said:
In the books, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Robb all have Tully apperances, with Arya looking like Jon and her late aunt Lyanna. Lyanna in the books isn't a redhead.
Jute88 said:
Where did you get Lyanna having red hair? A Song of Ice Fire wiki doesn't mention it, and I thought she had the traditional Stark looks (dark brown hair).
Lyanna Stark did not have red hair. She had dark hair. As Wolf notes, Arya is frequently compared to her aunt Lyanna, both in mannerism and appearance. She's also noted as looking entirely unlike her siblings, who all take after Catelyn. The only sibling she does share some features with is (dun dun dun) her bastard "half brother" Jon. That, and their shared feeling of being the outcast/black sheep is part of what informs their closeness.

In this particular circumstance, the implication would be that Jon took after his mother. The books go to quite some lengths to drive home the basic genetic logic that darker hair/features are dominant, so it stands to reason that Jon may not have any overtly Targaryen features. The only reason those features were so prominent in the bloodline to begin with is aggressive inbreeding, which also resulted in the signature "Targaryen madness".

The "Northern Red Hair" Samtemdo is making reference to doesn't really exist. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have red hair because of their mother, nothing more. Arya was the exception there.
 

COMaestro

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BloatedGuppy said:
The "Northern Red Hair" Samtemdo is making reference to doesn't really exist. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have red hair because of their mother, nothing more. Arya was the exception there.
Which leads to the obvious plot twist that Arya is not really Catelyn's daughter! Dun dun dunnnnnnn!

/sarcasm
 

Bobular

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COMaestro said:
BloatedGuppy said:
The "Northern Red Hair" Samtemdo is making reference to doesn't really exist. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have red hair because of their mother, nothing more. Arya was the exception there.
Which leads to the obvious plot twist that Arya is not really Catelyn's daughter! Dun dun dunnnnnnn!
Which explains the massive difference between Arya and Sansa! It all fits!
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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Jute88 said:
Where did you get Lyanna having red hair? A Song of Ice Fire wiki doesn't mention it, and I thought she had the traditional Stark looks (dark brown hair). I've never heard of Starks being red heads. Robb, Sansa (and maybe Rickon and Bran) got their looks from their mom's side, the Tullys.
I was merely thinking of this image of Lyanna:

 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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BloatedGuppy said:
Samtemdo8 said:
For one Jon Snow certainly does not look like a son of Lyanna and Rheagar, specifically how both people were described.

Lyanna is said to have Northern Red hair which all Starks and or Northern born peoples have and Rheagar has silver blonde hair which is something always associated with Targaryan blood. And both most likely have blue eyes.

But Jon has Dark Brown/Black hair and Dark Brown/Black Eyes, nothing in relation to Stark or Targaryan traits.
WolfThomas said:
In the books, Sansa, Bran, Rickon and Robb all have Tully apperances, with Arya looking like Jon and her late aunt Lyanna. Lyanna in the books isn't a redhead.
Jute88 said:
Where did you get Lyanna having red hair? A Song of Ice Fire wiki doesn't mention it, and I thought she had the traditional Stark looks (dark brown hair).
Lyanna Stark did not have red hair. She had dark hair. As Wolf notes, Arya is frequently compared to her aunt Lyanna, both in mannerism and appearance. She's also noted as looking entirely unlike her siblings, who all take after Catelyn. The only sibling she does share some features with is (dun dun dun) her bastard "half brother" Jon. That, and their shared feeling of being the outcast/black sheep is part of what informs their closeness.

In this particular circumstance, the implication would be that Jon took after his mother. The books go to quite some lengths to drive home the basic genetic logic that darker hair/features are dominant, so it stands to reason that Jon may not have any overtly Targaryen features. The only reason those features were so prominent in the bloodline to begin with is aggressive inbreeding, which also resulted in the signature "Targaryen madness".

The "Northern Red Hair" Samtemdo is making reference to doesn't really exist. Robb, Sansa, Bran and Rickon have red hair because of their mother, nothing more. Arya was the exception there.
Again you are referring to their book incarnations right because Robb and Bran Stark has Dark Brown hair in the show. Rickon is brighter colored but its not reddish.
 

BloatedGuppy

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Samtemdo8 said:
Again you are referring to their book incarnations right because Robb and Bran Stark has Dark Brown hair in the show. Rickon is brighter colored but its not reddish.
Naturally, but I don't credit anything the show does at this point. It's a gong show.

Samtemdo8 said:
I was merely thinking of this image of Lyanna
A quick Google image search will demonstrate that this coloration of her hair is an exception. Likely a piece of fan art and someone screwed up the hue.
 

Samtemdo8_v1legacy

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BloatedGuppy said:
Samtemdo8 said:
Again you are referring to their book incarnations right because Robb and Bran Stark has Dark Brown hair in the show. Rickon is brighter colored but its not reddish.
Naturally, but I don't credit anything the show does at this point. It's a gong show.

Samtemdo8 said:
I was merely thinking of this image of Lyanna
A quick Google image search will demonstrate that this coloration of her hair is an exception. Likely a piece of fan art and someone screwed up the hue.
But is Lyanna Stark described to have Blue eyes? All the images of Lyanna showcases she does.

And Rhaegar obviously has blue eyes aswell.

But Jon's are Dark Brown/Black. Unless again something to do with Dominance and Recessivness?
 

BloatedGuppy

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Samtemdo8 said:
But is Lyanna Stark described to have Blue eyes? All the images of Lyanna showcases she does.

And Rhaegar obviously has blue eyes aswell.

But Jon's are Dark Brown/Black. Unless again something to do with Dominance and Recessivness?
There are virtually no 'official' artwork representations of Lyanna Stark anywhere. The closest you're likely to get is the Game of Thrones graphic novel, which was okayed by Martin. This was her representation there:


She's also (barely) visible in the stands at Harrenhall before her selection as Queen of Love and Beauty by Rhaegar. She has dark brown hair there, as well. Her eyes are not visible.
 

Terminal Blue

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Samtemdo8 said:
Lyanna is said to have Northern Red hair which all Starks and or Northern born peoples have and Rheagar has silver blonde hair which is something always associated with Targaryan blood. And both most likely have blue eyes.
You've got this wrong, it is a rather tedious plot point in fact..

Sansa and Rob Stark both had red hair, which they inherited from Caitlyn, who was a Tully. Other Tullys, like Edmure, are also described as having red hair. Rickon's hair is never described, but given that he supposedly takes after his mother one would imagine it is also red.

Arya and Jon are both described as having more typical Stark features, with dark hair. In fact, it comes up at least once that Arya is the only trueborn stark who actually looks like a Stark. Jon, on the other hand, looks totally like a Stark, which is one of the reasons why Caitlyn resents him so much.

As for the Targaryen blood, it's implied to be about 50/50 whether it passes on. Of Rhaegar's trueborn children, one (Aegon) looked like a Targaryen while the other (Rhaenys) looked like a Martell. The reason the Targaryen royal line kept the silver hair is because they practiced close kin marriages, or married into other Valyrian houses like the the Velaryons.

For the record, it's also a popular theory that Tyrion is a bastard child of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister, and that one has some merit too (it would explain, for example, why Tywin despises Tyrion so much).
 

elvor0

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evilthecat said:
For the record, it's also a popular theory that Tyrion is a bastard child of Aerys Targaryen and Joanna Lannister, and that one has some merit too (it would explain, for example, why Tywin despises Tyrion so much).
I dunno, I think in those days, him being a dwarf whos birth killed his wife is a justified reason. People in real life can resent their children if they kill their wives in childbirth. I don't condone it and it's not even vaguely fair, but I don't think that means Tyrion isn't legitimate. Cersei hates Tyrion for those reasons.
 

Angelous Wang

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elvor0 said:
I dunno, I think in those days, him being a dwarf whos birth killed his wife is a justified reason. People in real life can resent their children if they kill their wives in childbirth. I don't condone it and it's not even vaguely fair, but I don't think that means Tyrion isn't legitimate. Cersei hates Tyrion for those reasons.
Cersei also hates Tyrion because of the witches prophecy that she was going to die by the hand of her little brother. Which she always assumed was Tyrion, though technically even though they are twins Cersei came out first, so Jamie is also her little brother (that part of the prophecy was not shown in the TV show though).

I think they are both Targaryan bastards.

I hope the 3 Targaryans will be together with Bran at some point and he will tell them their twisted family tree. The all 3 of them will jump on the Dragons and send the white walkers back to hell.