Review: Final Fantasy XIII

ZippyDSMlee

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Dakeyras-Way said:
Warachia said:
Dakeyras-Way said:
Well to put it simply Yes... In VII for example quite a few of the side quests gave you more information about your characters, gave them new abilities or spells. While yes you had little choice that would affect later events there were some... such as the date scene in FF VII where depending upon which characters you talked to throughout the game you could end up going on a date with someone other than Aeris
Yes, you can get extra abilities and items, but they had no effect on the game (aside from making it easier), unless you were a romantic or a completionist there was no point in the date scene, as all characters seemed to forget about it about 30 seconds after it was over, and aside from getting extra weapons/items to hopefully use against the final boss making the fight too easy (20+ megalixers) everybody THOUGHT it would be nice to return to this area later, did you? Maybe, maybe not. I know I didn't. If you did, you did only to get the aforementioned items before leaving the place behind forever. In a really special scenario, you treasure a city, leave, thinking how nice it would be to come back, and then have the city destroyed, while you remember fond memories of being there. In my opinion it degrades the experience when you return and the city is now boring and insipid with no interesting events.
I would like to point out that the date scene was just an example i don't particularly care one way or another whether the characters remember it or not the fact remains you did influence the events and that's not the only place it happens... Plus quite a few of the towns that you do go back to DO have events that occur outside of the actual story..

But most importantly just because you found that returning was boring and insipid that doesnt actually make it linear... the fact you can choose to return and do something new or whatever you wanted (by your own admission with the megalixer thing) makes it non linear... The STORY is linear but the actual game isnt..

Oh and saying there is no point in getting a different part of the story after claiming there were no other parts kinda proves my point
Ya to many devs are making games HIGHLY linear when they do not need to be.......... games are not film you do not have to marginalize everything in directing.....
 

blipblop

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John Funk said:
blipblop said:
i might be wrong, but did you steal GT review line by line at some places???
Uh, you're very wrong. I didn't even know GT *did* reviews. Hell, I've avoided most reviews of the game altogether since I didn't want my opinion to be shaped by them.

Plagiarism is a very serious charge, so I'd appreciate if you didn't insult me by suggesting that :/
yeah didn´t mean to insult you funk. I did just ask a question.
 

NamesAreHardToPick

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You know, I was thinking "I've seen this sort of game before".

I just put my finger on it... FF13 has old-school brawler level design instead of dungeon-crawl. Think about Double Dragon or River City Ransom. Now add Final Fantasy menu-based combat and cutscenes. Voila. I always thought there was something about it that came from arcade games.

The only point in having characters explore a dungeon is if you're going to make a repetitive resource-management game out of it. Like "how much can I explore before we run low on potions and have to run back?" and "how many times do we have to walk back into this damned dungeon before we find the boss fight and the MacGuffin and/or exit." That's fun on its own, but it waters down the moment-to-moment challenges in favor of making you decide if you can or can't afford to have a look around one more corner before running back to town. Also, it's the last thing you want in a cinematic game like FF13 because you don't want the story going cold for hours between cutscenes.
 

Casual Shinji

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John Funk said:
Chipperz said:
Nice review. I loved it for all the reasons most people hate it, and I don't know if it's any consolation for Final Fantasy fans who can't imagine playing something with a linear story, but after the first twenty or so hours, the game becomes a massive open-world grindfest. Sadly, my love of the storyline has put me into the trap most people I know have fallen into playing ANY Final Fantasy game - didn't grind enough, can't beat a boss, fucked over in sight of the ending.

It's really, really soured me on the Final Fantasy series, even more than before. Have Japanese people heard of scaling enemies!?
I never really "grinded" in the game, I just defeated every enemy that was in front of me. Hell, I managed to avoid most of the enemies in the entire last two sequences abusing Deceptisols, and I still managed to beat the game.
How the hell were you able to get by on Pulse without grinding? I grinded a certain amount before I left Cocoon, but when I got to Pulse got my ass handed to me.
 

Dakeyras-Way

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Casual Shinji said:
John Funk said:
Chipperz said:
Nice review. I loved it for all the reasons most people hate it, and I don't know if it's any consolation for Final Fantasy fans who can't imagine playing something with a linear story, but after the first twenty or so hours, the game becomes a massive open-world grindfest. Sadly, my love of the storyline has put me into the trap most people I know have fallen into playing ANY Final Fantasy game - didn't grind enough, can't beat a boss, fucked over in sight of the ending.

It's really, really soured me on the Final Fantasy series, even more than before. Have Japanese people heard of scaling enemies!?
I never really "grinded" in the game, I just defeated every enemy that was in front of me. Hell, I managed to avoid most of the enemies in the entire last two sequences abusing Deceptisols, and I still managed to beat the game.
How the hell were you able to get by on Pulse without grinding? I grinded a cetain amount before I left Cocoon, but when I got to Pulse got my ass handed to me.
If you actually fight every enemy along the way (including going both paths where it diverges) you get to pulse strong enough to beat most enemies.. the only things to avoid are the giant 4 legged stomping things.. I mean I didnt grind at all.. in fact i find grinding quite annoying.. but i got to pulse and even though i didnt slaughter everything in my path when i got there i could still beat pretty much anything first try.. including the marks.. Maybe its your party or paradigms or something...

A lot of people like Lightning, Hope and Fang but personally I use Lightning, Sahz and Vanille.. the paradigms bully (COM,SAB,SYN), diversity (COM,RAV,MED) and Relentless assault (COM,RAV,RAV) are enough to get through pretty much any confrontation.. And yes i play without a SEN
 

Florion

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Oh, help me. You're going to make my head explode: do I buy Heavy Rain first, or FFXIII? T_T
 

Diddy_King

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Onyx Oblivion said:
The soundtrack is great, I especially like the Chocobo Theme from Nautilus. There. That doesn't spoil a damn thing.

Yeah the music is great, I loved that song. It's a shame that they let go of most of their music staff.
 

MasterSplinter

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Excellent review, I´ve never played a FF game and am kinda ill biased about it. But this review made me want to give it a chance and did not seem like a fan boy tounge bath. I think Funk is one of the best reviewers (<- Is that a real word?) in this site, always is pretty objective and you can tell when he actually enjoyed something.
Not that the others are particularly bad, it´s just that sometimes it seams you have to reed/hear what they say taking into account the personality of the reviewer.(btw: not just talking about Yahtzee).
 

Warachia

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Dakeyras-Way said:
I would like to point out that the date scene was just an example i don't particularly care one way or another whether the characters remember it or not the fact remains you did influence the events and that's not the only place it happens... Plus quite a few of the towns that you do go back to DO have events that occur outside of the actual story..

But most importantly just because you found that returning was boring and insipid that doesnt actually make it linear... the fact you can choose to return and do something new or whatever you wanted (by your own admission with the megalixer thing) makes it non linear... The STORY is linear but the actual game isnt..

Oh and saying there is no point in getting a different part of the story after claiming there were no other parts kinda proves my point
It seems weird that in a series based around a linear story with linear dungeons you would claim it is not linear.

I never claimed that the date scene was part of the story, it was an add on, as many were, As I've said before stopping to do add on SIDEQUESTS. As part of the earlier points, everything people talk about before are sidequests, little missions you do assideto the main story that are given by in game person A to accomplish objective A and get reward A.

If the sidequests don't need to be finished in order to progress in the game and are for rewards that you don't absolutely need, then the game is still linear with no alternate progression, and no amount of optional quests can change that, as FF 12 proved, it only puts a hold on the main storyline While you run around doing things that don't matter, not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm only explaining that not having these doesn't downgrade the game as much as people claim and that the FF series has hardly had squat to do with them, except as an afterthought (except possibly FF 10 and FF 12 if you're willing to count it).

I also never claimed that a city being boring and insipid makes it linear, I only said it destroyed my enjoyment of a good place, but that's just me.
 

jabu354

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I mostly agree with this review, the only place I differ on is that I only felt the first 2 chapters to be too boring, before the combat started opening up and before you could even level up. The rest of the game leading up to chapter 10 on when it starts opening up even more, I found to be very fun, and it was a good way to let you get to know the characters and combat system.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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Warachia said:
Dakeyras-Way said:
I would like to point out that the date scene was just an example i don't particularly care one way or another whether the characters remember it or not the fact remains you did influence the events and that's not the only place it happens... Plus quite a few of the towns that you do go back to DO have events that occur outside of the actual story..

But most importantly just because you found that returning was boring and insipid that doesnt actually make it linear... the fact you can choose to return and do something new or whatever you wanted (by your own admission with the megalixer thing) makes it non linear... The STORY is linear but the actual game isnt..

Oh and saying there is no point in getting a different part of the story after claiming there were no other parts kinda proves my point
It seems weird that in a series based around a linear story with linear dungeons you would claim it is not linear.

I never claimed that the date scene was part of the story, it was an add on, as many were, As I've said before stopping to do add on SIDEQUESTS. As part of the earlier points, everything people talk about before are sidequests, little missions you do assideto the main story that are given by in game person A to accomplish objective A and get reward A.

If the sidequests don't need to be finished in order to progress in the game and are for rewards that you don't absolutely need, then the game is still linear with no alternate progression, and no amount of optional quests can change that, as FF 12 proved, it only puts a hold on the main storyline While you run around doing things that don't matter, not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm only explaining that not having these doesn't downgrade the game as much as people claim and that the FF series has hardly had squat to do with them, except as an afterthought (except possibly FF 10 and FF 12 if you're willing to count it).

I also never claimed that a city being boring and insipid makes it linear, I only said it destroyed my enjoyment of a good place, but that's just me.
So you would rather have a tightly directed linear game than one thats not so rigidly linear?
What killed FF12 for me was the horrible skill system,bland MMO equipment and no redeeming factor to the limit breaks. At least FFX managed to use quasi classes very well FF12 mostly felt like a soulless MMO knock off due to lack of focus on skills/equipment.

What I would like to see for FF or any qussai TB/RT RPG is combat from FFX/FF12(IE situational based turns based on location/ground/character/equipment) level layout from FF12(only with a proper overworld world travel would work on a cell to cell transit system like Oblivion/FO3 but the closer you get to a area the more of it opens up in real time), the gambit system with the ability to save multi preset lists and don't have to gather most gambits, a party system like dragon age(where you can split up the party) only you can do the FF6 thing and have 2 or 3 partys in different areas at once, oh the puzzle fun to be had!

Nothing I loath more than "cinemagic" game design where they try and treat a game as something as linear as film, FFX was mostly horrible, Doom 3 was a frigg'in joke of a game ....games are just not meant to be so highly linear IMO.
 

AlternatePFG

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I agree with this review. As bad as the early hours get, the game definitely becomes great further in. I never was a big FF fan, I didn't have any expectations, but this game definitely surpassed them.
 

John Funk

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ZippyDSMlee said:
Warachia said:
Dakeyras-Way said:
I would like to point out that the date scene was just an example i don't particularly care one way or another whether the characters remember it or not the fact remains you did influence the events and that's not the only place it happens... Plus quite a few of the towns that you do go back to DO have events that occur outside of the actual story..

But most importantly just because you found that returning was boring and insipid that doesnt actually make it linear... the fact you can choose to return and do something new or whatever you wanted (by your own admission with the megalixer thing) makes it non linear... The STORY is linear but the actual game isnt..

Oh and saying there is no point in getting a different part of the story after claiming there were no other parts kinda proves my point
It seems weird that in a series based around a linear story with linear dungeons you would claim it is not linear.

I never claimed that the date scene was part of the story, it was an add on, as many were, As I've said before stopping to do add on SIDEQUESTS. As part of the earlier points, everything people talk about before are sidequests, little missions you do assideto the main story that are given by in game person A to accomplish objective A and get reward A.

If the sidequests don't need to be finished in order to progress in the game and are for rewards that you don't absolutely need, then the game is still linear with no alternate progression, and no amount of optional quests can change that, as FF 12 proved, it only puts a hold on the main storyline While you run around doing things that don't matter, not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm only explaining that not having these doesn't downgrade the game as much as people claim and that the FF series has hardly had squat to do with them, except as an afterthought (except possibly FF 10 and FF 12 if you're willing to count it).

I also never claimed that a city being boring and insipid makes it linear, I only said it destroyed my enjoyment of a good place, but that's just me.
So you would rather have a tightly directed linear game than one thats not so rigidly linear?
What killed FF12 for me was the horrible skill system,bland MMO equipment and no redeeming factor to the limit breaks. At least FFX managed to use quasi classes very well FF12 mostly felt like a soulless MMO knock off due to lack of focus on skills/equipment.

What I would like to see for FF or any qussai TB/RT RPG is combat from FFX/FF12(IE situational based turns based on location/ground/character/equipment) level layout from FF12(only with a proper overworld world travel would work on a cell to cell transit system like Oblivion/FO3 but the closer you get to a area the more of it opens up in real time), the gambit system with the ability to save multi preset lists and don't have to gather most gambits, a party system like dragon age(where you can split up the party) only you can do the FF6 thing and have 2 or 3 partys in different areas at once, oh the puzzle fun to be had!

Nothing I loath more than "cinemagic" game design where they try and treat a game as something as linear as film, FFX was mostly horrible, Doom 3 was a frigg'in joke of a game ....games are just not meant to be so highly linear IMO.
Not every game is meant to be the same. Linearity is not a bad thing. What you *prefer* is not what is necessarily best for gaming as a whole.

Gaming is best served by having *diversity* in its design. Linearity has a place alongside more free-form things.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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John Funk said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
Warachia said:
Dakeyras-Way said:
I would like to point out that the date scene was just an example i don't particularly care one way or another whether the characters remember it or not the fact remains you did influence the events and that's not the only place it happens... Plus quite a few of the towns that you do go back to DO have events that occur outside of the actual story..

But most importantly just because you found that returning was boring and insipid that doesnt actually make it linear... the fact you can choose to return and do something new or whatever you wanted (by your own admission with the megalixer thing) makes it non linear... The STORY is linear but the actual game isnt..

Oh and saying there is no point in getting a different part of the story after claiming there were no other parts kinda proves my point
It seems weird that in a series based around a linear story with linear dungeons you would claim it is not linear.

I never claimed that the date scene was part of the story, it was an add on, as many were, As I've said before stopping to do add on SIDEQUESTS. As part of the earlier points, everything people talk about before are sidequests, little missions you do assideto the main story that are given by in game person A to accomplish objective A and get reward A.

If the sidequests don't need to be finished in order to progress in the game and are for rewards that you don't absolutely need, then the game is still linear with no alternate progression, and no amount of optional quests can change that, as FF 12 proved, it only puts a hold on the main storyline While you run around doing things that don't matter, not that there is anything wrong with that, I'm only explaining that not having these doesn't downgrade the game as much as people claim and that the FF series has hardly had squat to do with them, except as an afterthought (except possibly FF 10 and FF 12 if you're willing to count it).

I also never claimed that a city being boring and insipid makes it linear, I only said it destroyed my enjoyment of a good place, but that's just me.
So you would rather have a tightly directed linear game than one thats not so rigidly linear?
What killed FF12 for me was the horrible skill system,bland MMO equipment and no redeeming factor to the limit breaks. At least FFX managed to use quasi classes very well FF12 mostly felt like a soulless MMO knock off due to lack of focus on skills/equipment.

What I would like to see for FF or any qussai TB/RT RPG is combat from FFX/FF12(IE situational based turns based on location/ground/character/equipment) level layout from FF12(only with a proper overworld world travel would work on a cell to cell transit system like Oblivion/FO3 but the closer you get to a area the more of it opens up in real time), the gambit system with the ability to save multi preset lists and don't have to gather most gambits, a party system like dragon age(where you can split up the party) only you can do the FF6 thing and have 2 or 3 partys in different areas at once, oh the puzzle fun to be had!

Nothing I loath more than "cinemagic" game design where they try and treat a game as something as linear as film, FFX was mostly horrible, Doom 3 was a frigg'in joke of a game ....games are just not meant to be so highly linear IMO.
Not every game is meant to be the same. Linearity is not a bad thing. What you *prefer* is not what is necessarily best for gaming as a whole.

Gaming is best served by having *diversity* in its design. Linearity has a place alongside more free-form things.
There is no "diversity" in the linearity of free form things........ I suppose you have given up the fight on "qaulity" and go with whatever the flow is as most reviewers seem to do with today's 8's are yesterdays 6s and all.....

My "preferences" are more options,more content, more quality which seems to fly like sht hitting the preverbal fan in a 180 direction and less content,options lead to more money for the questionably "diverse" game industry.

I suppose art is in the eye of the beholder and all but it dose not make twilight(or "insert pathetic media here") any better and I am not getting any younger, all I need is a cane with a golf ball on it and I will be all set!
 

John Funk

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ZippyDSMlee said:
There is no "diversity" in the linearity of free form things........ I suppose you have given up the fight on "qaulity" and go with whatever the flow is as most reviewers seem to do with today's 8's are yesterdays 6s and all.....

My "preferences" are more options,more content, more quality which seems to fly like sht hitting the preverbal fan in a 180 direction and less content,options lead to more money for the questionably "diverse" game industry.

I suppose art is in the eye of the beholder and all but it dose not make twilight(or "insert pathetic media here") any better and I am not getting any younger, all I need is a cane with a golf ball on it and I will be all set!
Yes, because Super Mario Bros. 3 is clearly the most non-linear game ever made.

Your opinion is not law. Your preference does not indicate overall objective quality. A linear game is simply trying to do something with a different approach than a more free-form one. It is trying to offer a much more controlled experience.

Just because you personally do not like this, does not mean your word is law and the be-all-end-all of game quality.
 

edgeofblade

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I've said it before. I'll keep saying it until something proves me wrong:

A game that leans heavily on a story causes the gameplay to suffer. In this case, to the point where there is next to no gameplay at all. I've played my share of the classic JRPGs. Chrono Trigger wipes the floor with FF13. It was non-linear in FOUR FRACKING DIMENSIONS!

Running down a pretty tunnel, stopping to mash "Auto-Battle" every few seconds... IS... NOT... A... GAME.
 

FFKonoko

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Chipperz said:
Nice review. I loved it for all the reasons most people hate it, and I don't know if it's any consolation for Final Fantasy fans who can't imagine playing something with a linear story, but after the first twenty or so hours, the game becomes a massive open-world grindfest. Sadly, my love of the storyline has put me into the trap most people I know have fallen into playing ANY Final Fantasy game - didn't grind enough, can't beat a boss, fucked over in sight of the ending.
It's really, really soured me on the Final Fantasy series, even more than before. Have Japanese people heard of scaling enemies!?
Yes, they have. It was in Final Fantasy 8. For some reason, many didn't like it.

edgeofblade said:
Running down a pretty tunnel, stopping to mash "Auto-Battle" every few seconds... IS... NOT... A... GAME.
Chrono Trigger had a damn good story and damn good graphics. I loved the game. But its combat...was not its strong point. Double-techs became useless, and when revisting areas in Epoch, the weaker areas? ...mashing 'Auto-Battle', and enjoying the pretty scenery.

Honestly, I think the Gambit system of FFXII was good. Figuring it out for myself, first discovering the use of the indigo amulet, or late in the game where rather than leveling up to defeat a boss, I used a Reflect Mote and some 'IF Reflect Status THEN Fira SELF' gambits.
 

ZippyDSMlee

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John Funk said:
ZippyDSMlee said:
There is no "diversity" in the linearity of free form things........ I suppose you have given up the fight on "qaulity" and go with whatever the flow is as most reviewers seem to do with today's 8's are yesterdays 6s and all.....

My "preferences" are more options,more content, more quality which seems to fly like sht hitting the preverbal fan in a 180 direction and less content,options lead to more money for the questionably "diverse" game industry.

I suppose art is in the eye of the beholder and all but it dose not make twilight(or "insert pathetic media here") any better and I am not getting any younger, all I need is a cane with a golf ball on it and I will be all set!
Yes, because Super Mario Bros. 3 is clearly the most non-linear game ever made.

Your opinion is not law. Your preference does not indicate overall objective quality. A linear game is simply trying to do something with a different approach than a more free-form one. It is trying to offer a much more controlled experience.

Just because you personally do not like this, does not mean your word is law and the be-all-end-all of game quality.
So less is more?
No matter how you shake it you can not get more from less.

edgeofblade said:
I've said it before. I'll keep saying it until something proves me wrong:

A game that leans heavily on a story causes the gameplay to suffer. In this case, to the point where there is next to no gameplay at all. I've played my share of the classic JRPGs. Chrono Trigger wipes the floor with FF13. It was non-linear in FOUR FRACKING DIMENSIONS!

Running down a pretty tunnel, stopping to mash "Auto-Battle" every few seconds... IS... NOT... A... GAME.
I would not say it's non-linear its just more expansive, its not quite open ended but you can do alot of back tracking and moving forward from different spots.

But otherwise I agree with you.

FFKonoko said:
Chipperz said:
Nice review. I loved it for all the reasons most people hate it, and I don't know if it's any consolation for Final Fantasy fans who can't imagine playing something with a linear story, but after the first twenty or so hours, the game becomes a massive open-world grindfest. Sadly, my love of the storyline has put me into the trap most people I know have fallen into playing ANY Final Fantasy game - didn't grind enough, can't beat a boss, fucked over in sight of the ending.
It's really, really soured me on the Final Fantasy series, even more than before. Have Japanese people heard of scaling enemies!?
Yes, they have. It was in Final Fantasy 8. For some reason, many didn't like it.

edgeofblade said:
Running down a pretty tunnel, stopping to mash "Auto-Battle" every few seconds... IS... NOT... A... GAME.
Chrono Trigger had a damn good story and damn good graphics. I loved the game. But its combat...was not its strong point. Double-techs became useless, and when revisting areas in Epoch, the weaker areas? ...mashing 'Auto-Battle', and enjoying the pretty scenery.

Honestly, I think the Gambit system of FFXII was good. Figuring it out for myself, first discovering the use of the indigo amulet, or late in the game where rather than leveling up to defeat a boss, I used a Reflect Mote and some 'IF Reflect Status THEN Fira SELF' gambits.
Whats really neat is it works better than the scripts on DA :p
But other than that I found FF12 deadthly boring due to lack of fun equipment it felt like a bland MMO clone.

I enjoyed FF12 combat some it let me easily switch between control and auto and that I like but other than that its not worth playing all the way through.