Roe v Wade discussions in the supreme court.

[Agema]

I don't understand why we are still talking about religious stuff. If your religion tells you not to have an abortion, have at it (or not, as the case maybe be.) Religions placing that expectation on everyone else is the opposite of what America stands for. (Well, at least pretends.)

There is some truth in this, in the sense that anti-abortion is overwhelmingly formed by religious sentiment.

However, religious people also have a right to see their beliefs enacted in policy. If a religion states that everyone should look after the poor and it informed the attitudes of the religious, we could hardly refuse their democratic mandate to pas generous welfare allowances because it was rooted in religion.

So the question here is perhaps the framing of the argument. Intelligent Design in schools, for instance, has been routinely bounced because it has no justifiable scientific basis whatsoever: the smoke and mirrors don't hide the fundamentally religious nature. Abortion however is trickier. The argument "Ban it because my religion says so" would breach secularism. But they don't frame it like that, they frame it as "life begins at conception", which is undoubtedly defensible at some level. Sure, we all know they're making that argument because of religion, but whilst they have an independent secular argument that stands on its own two feet, it is up for serious consideration.

 

[Dwarvenhobble]

I don't understand why we are still talking about religious stuff. If your religion tells you not to have an abortion, have at it (or not, as the case maybe be.) Religions placing that expectation on everyone else is the opposite of what America stands for. (Well, at least pretends.)

The issue being most religions have written somewhere some obligation to spread their religion to others and or be seen to be protecting others from Sin so some religious people see it as their duty to try and protest against abortion to protect others so to speak.

 

[gorfias]

Unusual viewpoint from another forum, "
Most abortions are by liberals. Why the hell would republicans want to end this?
Not very smart IMO "
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/roe-vs-wade-close-to-being-over.594920/ Comment #23

 

[bluegate]

Unusual viewpoint from another forum, "
Most abortions are by liberals. Why the hell would republicans want to end this?
Not very smart IMO "
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/roe-vs-wade-close-to-being-over.594920/ Comment #23

On average, Republicans are indeed not very smart, astute observation, my dear sir

 

[Cheetodust]

On average, Republicans are indeed not very smart, astute observation, my dear sir

Remember when trump told his supporters not to vote? Good times.

 

[SilentPony]

Right. So where did you get the idea that passage is about ritual abortion? Probably from atheists on the internet.

No, it was from the monks. It was an example of a forced miscarriage(the whole "thigh falling out part" is a Medieval literacy practice of substitution "thigh" for words like genitals because it was immodest), and an example of what can be used against anti-Abortion activists as to what the Bible actually says, and we should be prepared to dismiss it because not everything in the Bible should be taken literally. You know how the ten commandments say thou shall not commit murder, and then the Bible gives a whole bunch of reasons when its okay to kill someone, like when a woman disagrees with a man, or someone works of a Sabbath? Shit like that.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

I don't understand why we are still talking about religious stuff. If your religion tells you not to have an abortion, have at it (or not, as the case maybe be.) Religions placing that expectation on everyone else is the opposite of what America stands for. (Well, at least pretends.)

Because nobody agrees on when abortion becomes murder. Also, most people regardless of religious affiliation will probably say killing a fetus is bad morally. People who murder a pregnant woman are charged with 2 counts of murder. Religion says not to steal but we don't have laws against stealing because the Bible said it.

 

[Buyetyen]

Also, most people regardless of religious affiliation will probably say killing a fetus is bad morally.

These are the words of someone who assumes everybody secretly agrees with you.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

These are the words of someone who assumes everybody secretly agrees with you.

So many of you guys are so in your echo chambers that you don't know what most people think. You also don't realize that I think abortion shouldn't be made against the law either. If you ask someone if killing a fetus (aka life) is morally fine, you're not going to get over 50% saying yes. That question is irregardless of abortion debate or what they think the law should be. Sure most will say abortion is fine if such and such, but just the very general act of killing a fetus will not be deemed morally acceptable with the majority of people.

How Americans Really Feel About Abortion: The Sometimes Surprising Poll Results One Year After Roe Overturned

America may be consistently divided in identifying as “pro-life” or “pro-choice”—but polls show consistent support through the years for abortion rights, though not in all cases.

www.forbes.com

"The share of Americans in Gallup’s poll who say abortion is morally acceptable reached a record high of 47% in May, up from a low of 36% in 2009"

 

[McElroy]

If you ask someone if killing a fetus (aka life) is morally fine, you're not going to get over 50% saying yes. That question is irregardless of abortion debate or what they think the law should be. Sure most will say abortion is fine if such and such, but just the very general act of killing a fetus will not be deemed morally acceptable with the majority of people.

The question is stupid on its own. Nobody can separate it from abortion and other circumstances; not in the article either. So when you make that claim it sounds to me that you are bringing some collective moral burden that bothers most people, and thus even if there are good reasons for abortions it would be ethical to have none occur. Like, in a better world we wouldn't have this necessary evil. Something should then be done with that sentiment. Hmm, maybe restrict the availability of abortions?

 

[Buyetyen]

So many of you guys are so in your echo chambers that you don't know what most people think. You also don't realize that I think abortion shouldn't be made against the law either. If you ask someone if killing a fetus (aka life) is morally fine, you're not going to get over 50% saying yes. That question is irregardless of abortion debate or what they think the law should be. Sure most will say abortion is fine if such and such, but just the very general act of killing a fetus will not be deemed morally acceptable with the majority of people.

You're asking the wrong questions, and again you're assuming that everyone secretly agrees with you.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

Because nobody agrees on when abortion becomes murder. Also, most people regardless of religious affiliation will probably say killing a fetus is bad morally. People who murder a pregnant woman are charged with 2 counts of murder. Religion says not to steal but we don't have laws against stealing because the Bible said it.

The murder thing depends on which state you're in and tends to have ludicrous examples where a formerly pregnant person is charged with murder/manslaughter and their attacker isn't

So many of you guys are so in your echo chambers that you don't know what most people think. You also don't realize that I think abortion shouldn't be made against the law either. If you ask someone if killing a fetus (aka life) is morally fine, you're not going to get over 50% saying yes. That question is irregardless of abortion debate or what they think the law should be. Sure most will say abortion is fine if such and such, but just the very general act of killing a fetus will not be deemed morally acceptable with the majority of people.

How Americans Really Feel About Abortion: The Sometimes Surprising Poll Results One Year After Roe Overturned

America may be consistently divided in identifying as “pro-life” or “pro-choice”—but polls show consistent support through the years for abortion rights, though not in all cases.

www.forbes.com

"The share of Americans in Gallup’s poll who say abortion is morally acceptable reached a record high of 47% in May, up from a low of 36% in 2009"

And in that same poll, 46% said it was morally unnacceptable.

People *really* have to start following source links and reading entire paragraphs

 

[Agema]

So many of you guys are so in your echo chambers that you don't know what most people think.

You have no idea what people think, either.

The main problem is that setting up a crude dichotomy that abortion is good or bad is simply an absurdity. Abortion is an act that exists with circumstances, intentions and consequences which determine how the morality is perceived. Much like, for instance, killing someone: because murdering a person in cold blood to steal their wallet is a world away from euthanasia is a world away from killing an enemy soldier on a battlefield.

To illustrate how bad this dichotomy is, ask a question to someone "Is it moral to kill someone?" One person may instinctively equate the "kill" with "murder", and so say it is not moral. But another may consider self-defence or war, and equivocate or say it is (can be) moral. To all intents and purposes, despite exactly the same question it is so badly worded that you have effectively asked these two people different questions.

 

[Phoenixmgs]

The question is stupid on its own. Nobody can separate it from abortion and other circumstances; not in the article either. So when you make that claim it sounds to me that you are bringing some collective moral burden that bothers most people, and thus even if there are good reasons for abortions it would be ethical to have none occur. Like, in a better world we wouldn't have this necessary evil. Something should then be done with that sentiment. Hmm, maybe restrict the availability of abortions?

I can separate it, I don't see why it's so hard. Most others can separate it too, that's why the difference in poll numbers depending on the question. You're putting way too much into my point that was not at all intended, it was meant to be as simple as I stated it and nothing else. There's a reason why the debate is still ongoing and I pointed out the reason as simple as possible. The fact that Roe v Wade's "point of no return" is moveable itself is why there is still debate as well. You're going to have a significant amount of people that think it's completely wrong and basically murder and then you also people that disagree with the cutoff point and/or what are valid and invalid reasons for abortion. It's just not some random religious belief that shouldn't influence the actual law, which was what I responded to.

You're asking the wrong questions, and again you're assuming that everyone secretly agrees with you.

I posted the literal polls...

The murder thing depends on which state you're in and tends to have ludicrous examples where a formerly pregnant person is charged with murder/manslaughter and their attacker isn't

And in that same poll, 46% said it was morally unnacceptable.

People *really* have to start following source links and reading entire paragraphs

There is literally no "46" in that article so I have no idea where you got that from.

You have no idea what people think, either.

The main problem is that setting up a crude dichotomy that abortion is good or bad is simply an absurdity. Abortion is an act that exists with circumstances, intentions and consequences which determine how the morality is perceived. Much like, for instance, killing someone: because murdering a person in cold blood to steal their wallet is a world away from euthanasia is a world away from killing an enemy soldier on a battlefield.

To illustrate how bad this dichotomy is, ask a question to someone "Is it moral to kill someone?" One person may instinctively equate the "kill" with "murder", and so say it is not moral. But another may consider self-defence or war, and equivocate or say it is (can be) moral. To all intents and purposes, despite exactly the same question it is so badly worded that you have effectively asked these two people different questions.

Again, I literally posted the polls, I don't know what else you want. I was not setting up that at all, read the first reply in this post. It was a very simple point and it was nothing but that.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

There is literally no "46" in that article so I have no idea where you got that from.

The source link of the poll that the article referenced. You know, "research"
Leads to here:

Record-High 47% in U.S. Think Abortion Is Morally Acceptable

A record-high 47% of U.S. adults think abortion is morally acceptable, while 46% believe it is morally wrong. U.S. adults are also split in their self-identification as "pro-life" or "pro-choice."

news.gallup.com

 

[The Rogue Wolf]

Unusual viewpoint from another forum, "
Most abortions are by liberals. Why the hell would republicans want to end this?
Not very smart IMO "
http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/roe-vs-wade-close-to-being-over.594920/ Comment #23

It's because Republicans are very small people, and small people need power to make themselves feel big. And what greater power is there than to decide who lives and who dies?

 

[Phoenixmgs]

The source link of the poll that the article referenced. You know, "research"
Leads to here:

Record-High 47% in U.S. Think Abortion Is Morally Acceptable

A record-high 47% of U.S. adults think abortion is morally acceptable, while 46% believe it is morally wrong. U.S. adults are also split in their self-identification as "pro-life" or "pro-choice."

news.gallup.com

I'm not clicking on every fucking link in an article on something I don't really care that much about. The point is not even a simple majority of American's find abortion as morally acceptable. I came to point out that the reason why there is still debate and it's not some stupid religious belief that is trying to affect the law, which is what I replied to. Might as well complain that theft is only against the law because it's some kooky religious belief. Being against killing fetuses is not some kooky religious belief. I'm as anti-religious as one can get and I'd say that killing a fetus isn't morally acceptable either, and I go by deontology for morals, it has nothing to do with religion. And I'm not for making abortion illegal either because 1) not all abortions are immoral IMO, and 2) the steps you'd have to go through to ensure only moral abortions happened would be ridiculous and logistically impossible.

It's because Republicans are very small people, and small people need power to make themselves feel big. And what greater power is there than to decide who lives and who dies?

You people have to stop with your camps and tribes. If democrats did the same, it would be an example of them standing by their principles. The democrats are as full of needing power to make themselves feel big and decide very much who lives and dies in tons of their policies as well. The greatest trick that both parties have pulled is convincing people that the bad guys are the other guys when they're both the bad guys. Why do you think democrats say "we need a strong republican party"? It's so the can say we wanna do all this good stuff when they really don't wanna do that stuff (cuz the lobbyists pay money for that stuff to not happen) and can blame the republicans for it not happening. THEY'RE BOTH THE SAME TEAM. Instead of democrats yelling at republicans for not masking and republicans invading the Capitol over some dumbass election steal bullshit, both sides should've invaded the Capitol demanding healthcare that isn't a sham in the middle of a fucking pandemic.

But no, everyone is distracted by squirrels all the time...

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

I'm not clicking on every fucking link in an article on something I don't really care that much about. The point is not even a simple majority of American's find abortion as morally acceptable. I came to point out that the reason why there is still debate and it's not some stupid religious belief that is trying to affect the law, which is what I replied to. Might as well complain that theft is only against the law because it's some kooky religious belief. Being against killing fetuses is not some kooky religious belief. I'm as anti-religious as one can get and I'd say that killing a fetus isn't morally acceptable either, and I go by deontology for morals, it has nothing to do with religion. And I'm not for making abortion illegal either because 1) not all abortions are immoral IMO, and 2) the steps you'd have to go through to ensure only moral abortions happened would be ridiculous and logistically impossible.

Plain fact is that most people don't think it's immoral or don't care enough to have an opinion.

Don't be lecturing us on Echo Chambers when your own facts don't survive the studies you claim prove them

 

[Trunkage]

It's because Republicans are very small people, and small people need power to make themselves feel big. And what greater power is there than to decide who lives and who dies?

See also: Republican Covid response

 

[Buyetyen]

I'm not clicking on every fucking link in an article on something I don't really care that much about.

Then why should any of us be bothered to read your shit if you're too lazy to vet your sources?