Rogue One - Why was Vader seem so much more impressive than Prequel-era fighters?

[thejboy88]

Spoilers below.

So, at the end of the latest Star Wars movie, Rogue One, we get a truly memorable moment that has, perhaps gone down as audience's favourite scene of the entire film; Darth Vader, strolling down a hallway while slaughtering every Rebel in his path. It's a gripping and thoroughly enjoyable moment, reminding everybody watching why this guy has gone down as one of the truly great villains of cinema. He says nothing, yet we know just from looking that he's an unstoppable force of destruction, with the good guys unable to do anything to halt his advance.

And yet, as I watched it, I couldn't help but feel something odd. The Prequels, while certainly flawed, nevertheless had spectacular fight scenes and choreography, creating fighters that appeared to be of a calibre that simply could not be matched. The fluidity of their movements, the style of their lightsaber duels, the way they flipped and kicked and jumped, just made the fights of the original trilogy looks like childsplay by comparison.

And yet, here was Vader, fighting in a manner that was far more restrained and basic than those of the Prequel-era, yet he, for whatever reason, seemed to come across as not only more intimidating, but also like an overall better fighter than those who came before. This is what struck me as odd because those who fought and duelled in the Prequels were clearly made to appear as though they had skill that far outmatched those of the OT, and in a lot of ways, they did. But even so, there was just something about the more simple way Vader fought in Rogue One that just seemed to overshadow those more choreographed fights.

Do you agree? Disagree? Or perhaps share some other viewpoint I had not considered?

 

[Gethsemani_v1legacy]

That's the entire intention of that scene; to play Darth Vader up as this unstoppable juggernaut of destruction. It is obvious in literally every aspect of the scene, from how he's constantly shown from a frog perspective (making him seem bigger and more menacing), to how all the rebels are terrified of him and try to escape him to how the dark lightning puts focus on his lightsaber as it cuts through the rebels and the light of it reflects in his emotionless mask. His fighting style, likewise, mirrors this by being subdued yet efficient. It shows that Vader wastes no energy, because the half dozen people in front of him pose no risk to him, he will kill them and he will do so without even trying very hard.

It is a very well-crafted scene in that regard, it really drives home to the viewer that Darth Vader is the Dark Side embodied and that he's an utterly terrifying, nigh undefeatable, foe to everyone that's not Luke Skywalker.

 

[Breakdown]

In the prequels the cannon fodder soldiers were always droids with no personalities, so you didn't really feel any empathy for them or care if they were destroyed. Especially since they were all CGI generated.

 

[Scarim Coral]

I feel they made him far more menacing as a means of redeeming him as a badass/ villain once again due to this in the prequel

Well that's how my bro see it. I mean remember to those who actually went to watch A New Hope at the 80's, Vader was such an intimadating character back then!

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I'm surprised no one has drawn a direct comparison to a horror movie slasher film, because that was what that segment was truly like. In that moment Vader was Jason Vorheez with a Lightsaber Machete and it was pretty cool and horrifying. Can you imagine being the last person in that room, completely helpless?

 

[Darth Rosenberg]

The Prequels, while certainly flawed, nevertheless had spectacular fight scenes and choreography, creating fighters that appeared to be of a calibre that simply could not be matched. The fluidity of their movements, the style of their lightsaber duels, the way they flipped and kicked and jumped, just made the fights of the original trilogy looks like childsplay by comparison.

Hey? If there was any child's play at work, it was in the prequels flippy, spinny nonsense. Look at Empire's duel and there are some measured moments of fencing technique and guard positions, even if they've been transposed onto laser sword fights.

And yes, there are a few spins in the originals, but overall they're far more convincing as depictions of combat (they're also grounded in character narrative, which for me immediately makes them incalculably superior anyway).

But even so, there was just something about the more simple way Vader fought in Rogue One that just seemed to overshadow those more choreographed fights.

Because it wasn't totally shit, perhaps? Glib, I know, but I can't help it with the prequels... I'd say that Rogue One scene and TFA's clash trump anything in the prequels with ease.

The Vader scene exists to give him some real phantom menace back, given the prequels turned Anakin to a whining, cringe inducing muppet. These films are tantamount to a reboot or restart for the films, and so trying to conform to some sense of tone or style with lightsaber techniques, of all things, makes no sense. A lot of people have more or less just blanked out the prequels anyway - TFA and Rogue One are a fresh start. And a damn fine one, I reckon.

Definitely looking forward to any saber scenes in Ep.VIII and IX.

 

[FalloutJack]

Snip

As I've heard from others, Vader changed his combat style after he was cyberneticized. He's encased in a sturdy heat-resistant suit of armor which increases strength, but makes him heavier. It's harder to do the same stuff he did when his body was unencumbered. So, because of his dramatic life change, he altered his way of doing things, moving from the swift killing machine to the ever-intimidating and unstoppable juggernaut of the Empire.

Rogue One is great stuff.

 

[Zontar]

Star Wars is becoming like MGS. Way too many prequels.

To be fair, given how the prequels either 1) try to do something new and expand the mythos, or 2) are better then the sequels, that's not an inherent bad thing. At least none of them where like TFA where it ruined the ending of the previous trilogy and gave every single character a bad ending.

 

[Souplex]

Because his fighting was more grounded.
His actions had a sense of deliberateness and weight, no wire-fu flipping bullshit.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

What's cooler, the guy who punches 10 times and misses every punch, or the guy who punches once, lands the punch, and knocks his opponent out in one hit?

Effective measured combat is always more interesting than a bunch of flipping and spinning that doesn't go anywhere. It's one of the reasons I can't stand chinese action movies that involve tons of wire fighting and acrobatics. To me the additional movement doesn't make the fight more interesting, it detracts from it because the fighting is purposefully inefficient.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

He was fighting a bunch of mooks. He never met another guy with a lightsaber. Of course he's going to look overpowered; he's gone from one laser sword-wizard in a universe full of laser sword-wizards to like, the only laser sword-wizard currently practicing laser sword-wizardry.

That 30-second scene was legitimately perfect precisely because it emphasised exactly how terrifying it would be for a random trooper with a blaster to fight a laser sword-wizard who can read your thoughts and choke you with his mind. That's something Star Wars has never shown before. Coming at the end of a lightsaber-less film like Rogue One made it even more effective. Now all we need is a Vader film.

[sub][sub]VADER VADER VADER VADER VADER VADER VADER VADER VADER [/sub][/sub]

 

[Sniper Team 4]

See, the thing is, all those lightsaber fights we see in the prequels are against other lightsaber experts. The way lightsabers work, and by extension lightsaber duels, is that the Force guides your movements. It's been described as seeing into the future in a certain way, where you can sense your opponent's move a brief moment before he makes it and the Force guides you to block, dodge, or counter attack.
Of course, your opponent is doing the same, which is why those fights come across more as elaborate dances than actual combat. You are seeing people literally trying to trick each other while they can sense each others' movements. And since this is all we've really ever seen in the Star Wars films, these duels--while impressive to watch--eventually got stale.

But when someone strong in the Force goes up against non Force users, and that person has no qualms about holding back, well...slaughter is an understatement. Keep in mind that we saw the same thing in the prequel movies whenever Obi and Qui went up against battle droids. Those fights were over instantly. But when the people getting slaughtered are actual people, it strikes a different cord. You can see the terror in those soldiers' faces, and the fact that Vader takes his time, letting them know that there is nothing they can do to stop him, freaks them out even more. And he knows it. Imagine what the people who got away are telling their friends now.
This is why Vader was so feared by the Rebels. He was their boggy man, a myth that some didn't even believe in because believing someone on the other side is that far above you is something a lot of people can't handle.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

See, the thing is, all those lightsaber fights we see in the prequels are against other lightsaber experts. The way lightsabers work, and by extension lightsaber duels, is that the Force guides your movements. It's been described as seeing into the future in a certain way, where you can sense your opponent's move a brief moment before he makes it and the Force guides you to block, dodge, or counter attack.

You made me realize that everyone in "For Honor" is using the force.

<_<

 

[Zontar]

Star Wars is becoming like MGS. Way too many prequels.

To be fair, given how the prequels either 1) try to do something new and expand the mythos, or 2) are better then the sequels, that's not an inherent bad thing. At least none of them where like TFA where it ruined the ending of the previous trilogy and gave every single character a bad ending.

Episodes II and III aren't good movies. Episode I, I feel, is barely a good movie. The prequel trilogy was wasted on a story we already knew from the original trilogy, making it even more pointless than TFA. It shouldn't have been about Anakin. Episode II is by far the worst live action Star Wars movie. Episode I was unique, but the prequels had a lot of fanservice and silly throwbacks to the original trilogy.

My point was that for all they where the prequels didn't detract from the original trilogy. The sequel trilogy, which has its first and so far only released entry be of comparable quality to the prequels (but because of flashier visuals it somehow got a pass) while also having the retroactive diminishing of quality of the original trilogy at work.

 

[EbonBehelit]

My point was that for all they where the prequels didn't detract from the original trilogy.

Midichlorians: putting a scientific explanation where it doesn't belong. Apparently training and wisdom are trumped by innate 'power level', thus totally nullifying the mysticism of the Force.

Anakin: A reckless brat that remains so even as an adult. Sincerely believes that it's possible for Padme to die during childbirth in a high-tech futuristic wonderland in which robot midwives and tanks of healing-juice exist. Became a meme.

Palpatine: Despite being almost the only entertaining character in the trilogy, his ascent to power defies belief since it only works due to EVERYONE IN THE GALAXY being both blind and insanely stupid.

Yoda: Yoda's wisdom in the original trilogy is ruined the moment he pulls out a lightsaber. He actually has to compensate for his smaller size during combat, which means that size does matter, after all.

...and that's just a few things off the top of my head.

 

[RealRT]

My point was that for all they where the prequels didn't detract from the original trilogy.

Midichlorians: putting a scientific explanation where it doesn't belong. Apparently training and wisdom are trumped by innate 'power level', thus totally nullifying the mysticism of the Force.

The scientific explanation where it didn't belong... namely in a space opera... right.
You know, I don't see people complaining about genetics and all that jazz being constantly mentioned in The Witcher and stuff, but people can't stop complaining about how having a pseudo-scientific explanation for something in Star Wars "ruined it", as if the Force being absolutely unexplained was the only thing that ever mattered in the damn story.
Woulda been a fair point... if the simple matter of being or not being "strong in the Force" and thus the very same power level didn't already exist in the originals.

Anakin: A reckless brat that remains so even as an adult. Sincerely believes that it's possible for Padme to die during childbirth in a high-tech futuristic wonderland in which robot midwives and tanks of healing-juice exist. Became a meme.

Anakin: a hero who manages to destroy a droid mothership at the age of eight, overpowered and killed a Sith lord whose combat experience is nothing to be laughed at and whose fear of loss became his downfall. And yeah, since Padme DID die through childbirth...

Palpatine: Despite being almost the only entertaining character in the trilogy, his ascent to power defies belief since it only works due to EVERYONE IN THE GALAXY being both blind and insanely stupid.

Blinding everyone with his Dark Side abilities was all but stated outright as one of Palpatine's powers.

Yoda: Yoda's wisdom in the original trilogy is ruined the moment he pulls out a lightsaber. He actually has to compensate for his smaller size during combat, which means that size does matter, after all.

That's... some interesting logic on display. 'cause it seems to me that in the end of the day, size matters not, as long as you work on compensating for your disadvantages. His size and him "compensating" didn't make him any less of a fearsome duelist.