RTS games that don't rely purely on APM and micro.

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
Are there any? I mean like...my favorite scenarios in RTS games are where you have a limited number of troops/resources and you either can't get more, or you can only get more by doing certain actions. (I don't remember the game, but there was one campaign mission where you had a small group of survivors and could get more troops by freeing prisoners, completing objectives, calling for reinforcements by fixing a comm tower, etc. Was my favorite mission in the entire game).

But those are only individual stages and such. Are there any that has that as a major design focus? I only know of turn based strategy games that do that, but not any real time.
 

Tethalaki

You fight like a dairy farmer.
Nov 5, 2009
169
0
0
The campaign for both Company of Heroes [http://store.steampowered.com/app/4560/] and World in Conflict [http://store.steampowered.com/app/21760/] both have [semi]limited unit pools.

I wouldn't really say either heavily feature 'micro' in the traditional sense; instead it's more just making sure units are in cover/ect.

For what it's worth: both are brilliant games and the game play in both is great.
 

Joccaren

Elite Member
Mar 29, 2011
2,601
3
43
Uhh...

So games that rely heavily on Micro then, seeing as Micro is controlling the actions of your units on a small scale, whilst Macro is moving entire armies around and building bases - the large scale stuff.

To that, from memory some of the later Command and Conquer games I think had no base building, and from memory a game called Worldshift I remember trying at some time I believe was only limited units at the start of a mission.
 

Owyn_Merrilin

New member
May 22, 2010
7,370
0
0
If you want to go all out, there's always Defcon. It's about as macro as it gets, since the basic concept is you're controlling a nuclear arsenal plus its supporting defenses (mostly things like fighter aircraft to defend your bombers) in a world wide nuclear war. It's also not really based around APM, since, while it can be sped up, the game only runs as fast as the slowest setting put up by one of the players. The slowest possible setting is in real time, as in the actual amount of time it takes an ICBM to travel half way around the world.

Edit: You also start out with a fixed number of units. You can choose where to place them at the start, but you can't get any more once the game has started.
 

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
Tethalaki said:
The campaign for both Company of Heroes [http://store.steampowered.com/app/4560/] and World in Conflict [http://store.steampowered.com/app/21760/] both have [semi]limited unit pools.

I wouldn't really say either heavily feature 'micro' in the traditional sense; instead it's more just making sure units are in cover/ect.

For what it's worth: both are brilliant games and the game play in both is great.
I'll look at them on Wednesday- Too tired tonight and there's a lot of work to be done tomorrow.

Joccaren said:
Uhh...

So games that rely heavily on Micro then, seeing as Micro is controlling the actions of your units on a small scale, whilst Macro is moving entire armies around and building bases - the large scale stuff.

To that, from memory some of the later Command and Conquer games I think had no base building, and from memory a game called Worldshift I remember trying at some time I believe was only limited units at the start of a mission.
Well...when I say micro, I mean like...making fifty billion workers to gather resources, then have to set a mental (or physical) timer to know EXACTLY when research is finished to start on something else, otherwise you quickly start falling behind in the virtual arms race and lose horribly because the other guy can click stuff faster than you can. I don't have a problem with microing combat units.

Owyn_Merrilin said:
If you want to go all out, there's always Defcon. It's about as macro as it gets, since the basic concept is you're controlling a nuclear arsenal plus its supporting defenses (mostly things like fighter aircraft to defend your bombers) in a world wide nuclear war. It's also not really based around APM, since, while it can be sped up, the game only runs as fast as the slowest setting put up by one of the players. The slowest possible setting is in real time, as in the actual amount of time it takes an ICBM to travel half way around the world.

Edit: You also start out with a fixed number of units. You can choose where to place them at the start, but you can't get any more once the game has started.
Yeah, I've played Defcon but just didn't like it for some reason...
 

Owyn_Merrilin

New member
May 22, 2010
7,370
0
0
Kopikatsu said:
Yeah, I've played Defcon but just didn't like it for some reason...

I'm not crazy about it myself, only suggested it because it nailed all the points you were talking about. I like the idea and the aesthetic, but it's such a slow paced game that I really wish it had a more fleshed out single player component. It's not really a game you can just hop online with and do well at, but unfortunately that's pretty much what you have to do. I mean, a single match can take upwards of two hours to play out. When you factor in the number of matches it takes in any online game to get competent, let alone good, it really makes an online only version of a concept like that unappealing.
 

Rack

New member
Jan 18, 2008
1,379
0
0
Yeah that's macro, micro is when you have 2 or 20 or 50 or however many troops and you individually dodge them out of position, activate their abilities individually at the perfect time.

RTS are unfortunately a bit weird here, the Macro focussed games are largely the ones where you don't need such insane click speed because it's impossible to manage 50,000 troops to this level of fidelity. Still, you always need an extremely high level of apm to play any RTS, either because you have so many abilities in the micro heavy ones, or just so many things to do in mcro heavy ones.

With that in mind.

Company of Heroes.

This is the king of what you actually described, it still requires a lot of dexterity but the interplay of small scale abilities is a thing of wonder.

Dawn of War 2

This is the entry level. You control only 4 troops in the campaign and in the skirmish have limited troops and no base building. Go for the Expansions though because the main game is definitely the weakest. Also Company of Heroes is flat out better.

Sacrifice.

This is barely recognisable as an RTS. You directly control one character and summon others on the battle field. You can order them to follow you and have a limited degree of control but it's a strategy game far less focussed on click speed than anything else. It's also absolutely fricking amazing.

Brutal Legend.

Much the same as above but with Tim Schaefer, Heavy Metal and a bit less strategic depth.

Advance Wars

Going a bit off field here, but if you want strategy and don't want to worry about APM, this is basically an RTS but turn based. It's also completely amazing, in all its iterations.

Baldurs Gate 2/ Icewind Dale 2. Now I'm just getting plain weird. You need to understand 2md edition D&D or 3rd edition D&D but if you do they play as small scale skirmish RTS except you can (and pretty uch must, they go at crazy speeds) pause at any time.

Frozen Synapse

Once more for good measure, another turn based game that is focussd on small scale tactics wehre the focus is on time management. Totally different but worth a look.
 

Kopikatsu

New member
May 27, 2010
4,924
0
0
Rack said:
Advance Wars

Going a bit off field here, but if you want strategy and don't want to worry about APM, this is basically an RTS but turn based. It's also completely amazing, in all its iterations.

Baldurs Gate 2/ Icewind Dale 2. Now I'm just getting plain weird. You need to understand 2md edition D&D or 3rd edition D&D but if you do they play as small scale skirmish RTS except you can (and pretty uch must, they go at crazy speeds) pause at any time.

Frozen Synapse

Once more for good measure, another turn based game that is focussd on small scale tactics wehre the focus is on time management. Totally different but worth a look.
The reason I was pushing for RTS is because I already know most if not all of the turn based games. Fire Emblem, Phantom Brave, Soul Nomad, Suikoden (Love that series), etc.

Actually...I remember thinking that if there were a game that were basically just Suikoden's war sequences, I would be extremely pleased with it. Those were always my favorite parts of those games. Like going out of your way to recruit additional Beaver troops to swim out and sink the enemy ships, then have them go over and smash a dam to push the enemy navy's reinforcements closer to shore for your fire archers and mages to pick them off as they desperately try to regroup.
 

Rack

New member
Jan 18, 2008
1,379
0
0
Kopikatsu said:
The reason I was pushing for RTS is because I already know most if not all of the turn based games. Fire Emblem, Phantom Brave, Soul Nomad, Suikoden (Love that series), etc.
Fair enough, though I'm surprised you're looking for RTS and not just looking forward to Xcom. Have you played Blood Bowl, Tactics Ogre and Valkyria Chronicles they're not totally mainstream so you might not have but they're all great ways to scratch that strategy itch. As for Real Time those suggestions stand, so just let me know what you think.
 

NerfedFalcon

Level i Flare!
Mar 23, 2011
7,513
1,326
118
Gender
Male
If you want no base-building and not having to 'micro' units around, may I recommend League of Legends? It's still an RTS, mostly, but you only control one unit. Tensions tend to run high, especially when one player's plans for winning don't involve moving their unit to help another player's, but it's still pretty fun. Dota 2 is a better base game, but there are a lot more heroes with summoning units in their 'kit' (along with items that do that), so I'd recommend LoL in this case.
 

Hargrimm

New member
Jan 1, 2010
256
0
0
You might want to look into Grand Strartegy games like Europa Universalis and Hearts of Iron. Troops are limited by what your economy can handle and it has hardly any micro whatsoever. You can also pause the game and do your macro in whatever time you like.

For smaller scale stuff, there are Ground Control and the Myth series. Syndicate is also real time. Those are probably closer to what you are looking for. Can't think of any others right now.
 

Eclectic Dreck

New member
Sep 3, 2008
6,662
0
0
It depends upon the context of play. Most RTS games will have some focus on timing and maneuvering multiple units and in multiplayer the importance of doing both proficiently cannot be overstated.

That said, there are a few general guidelines for games that meet that demand. First, the focus of the game cannot be on building an army during battle and second, the smaller the unit caps the better. With those in mind, here area few games and franchises that meet the request:

Ground Control: Ancient by modern standards. A bit of a rock paper scissors game but maneuver and timing are still important. Multiplayer is dead I'd assume but the campaign is of reasonable quality. Units are controlled by squad and there are a maximum of 8 squads in any given level. Special abilities are a limited resource so deploying them properly is key to success. The game is also notable for being the first game I can remember that had artillery that worked like real artillery - i.e. staggering range (generally it could hit anywhere on the map) and firepower. In multiplayer, it made the fog of war tremendously useful and was a key reason to have infantry or scout vehicles.

Total War: The single player campaign is divided into two phases - a turn based 4x strategy game of enormous depth and real time control over your armies in battle. You control squads of troops and the manpower you bring to a battle is all you'll get. There are various systems of reinforcement which handle things if you bring more than the maximum number of squads to any particular battle. Precise timing is never terribly important and combined with small unit counts battles tend to be rather relaxing affairs.

Company of Heroes: Like the previous two, this game focus on squads rather than individuals. That said, maneuver is incredibly important as is timing, especially in multiplayer. It is rare that any given battle will have you frantically pushing buttons and selecting troops and maneuvering them as the game is structures such that you probably won't have a huge army in a particular place at a time. The game does feature primitive tech trees and you do build an army as you play but the maximum army size is quite small - at most perhaps 20 units.

Dawn of War: Similar to the above in most ways, just less refined and featuring a different aestetic. The various expansions have lots of quality content in single player but I myself never cared for the multiplayer portion.

Dawn of War 2: Worthy of being noted separately as it is quite divergent from the first. The base campaign and the first expansion (Chaos Rising) gives you, in the end, six units of which four can be brought to a fight. There is no building of any sort beyond a limited stat progression and item collection system pursued between levels. In many ways, the campaign is incredibly weak as you don't really win through superior tactics or strategy so much as dogged persistence and tedious advance. The game's single player simply does not reward doing anything notable. Some micromanagement is important of course, largely in the form of directing special attacks. The last expansion, Retribution, features a minor base building mechanic (basically a simplified and accellerated version of what you find in the multiplayer) but the same qualifications as above hold. You win with crushing weight in firepower and nothing else. The design simply does not allow for bold or interesting maneuver. Multiplayer is a different story. There is a minor army building mechanic but even an end game army may be as few as 5 unique units (or as many as 12). Unlike the other games, this one is built around precisely executing commands, maneuver, and to an extent, simply selecting the right object to bring.

Of the pack, the first is probably off the list as I don't even know where you'd find it or if it runs on a modern system. Total War is readily available on steam and if you go that route, stick to the more modern games - anything from Rome forward. In a toss up between Dawn of War and CoH, I'd probably opt for Dawn of War personally - I simply prefer the aestetic and that game held my interest longer than CoH. Of all of them, I have the most experience with Dawn of War 2 and the various expansions and of them the most recent is probably the better choice. In total there is more single player to be had albiet spread across six different campaigns. The multiplayer is also more current which means it is often easier to find a game. That said, many people still favor the old expansion Chaos Rising out of concerns of balance or simply (as I came to in the end) hating Steamwerks with a passion.
 

Tallim

New member
Mar 16, 2010
2,054
0
0
AI War. Mainly because it works so differently than almost anything. Research is the only finite resource and you do build an absolute ton of units however you are only allowed to have so many of each unit active at a time. The only way to get new ship types to build is to capture places.

Units build amazingly fast as the game mostly focuses on the grander strategy. You can (and should) automate a lot of your bases.

Even if it isn't what you are looking for exactly it is unlike almost any other RTS/4X out there. You can play the trial version for the entire tutorial and can play 3 hours of a campaign on easy, so no real excuse to not try it.

 

CpT_x_Killsteal

Elite Member
Jun 21, 2012
1,519
0
41
Kopikatsu said:
Men of War: Assault Squad. This mainly a the multiplayer one though. If you're the campaign type then take a pick from any of the other Men of War games.

In my opinion they are freaking awesome!!
 

General Twinkletoes

Suppository of Wisdom
Jan 24, 2011
1,426
0
0
Kopikatsu said:
Well...when I say micro, I mean like...making fifty billion workers to gather resources, then have to set a mental (or physical) timer to know EXACTLY when research is finished to start on something else, otherwise you quickly start falling behind in the virtual arms race and lose horribly because the other guy can click faster
That's Macro. Anything that has to do with managing bases, money and upgrades is macro. Combat is micro.

Well things that don't have macro would probably be Starwars: Empire at war and Dawn of War 2. It's been a while, I think Empire at war had a tiny, tiny amount of base building, but if there was it was so minor I can't remember any of it.

I heard sacrifice was pretty awesome, although it's hard to put that in the same genre as ones like Dawn of War, it's very different.
 

kingthrall

New member
May 31, 2011
811
0
0
this thread is quite silly to be honest and I dont know if O.P is being serious. If you have a small force and the game is setup with no reinforcements, 90% of the time you do have to micro. Easier actions are made for bigger scale r.t.s to manage larger forces ect ect... Someone please lock this post it makes me laugh.
 

Eleuthera

Let slip the Guinea Pigs of war!
Sep 11, 2008
1,673
0
0
The first games that came to mind were R.U.S.E. and the Close Combat series.
 

SomeLameStuff

What type of steak are you?
Apr 26, 2009
4,291
0
0
leet_x1337 said:
If you want no base-building and not having to 'micro' units around, may I recommend League of Legends? It's still an RTS, mostly, but you only control one unit. Tensions tend to run high, especially when one player's plans for winning don't involve moving their unit to help another player's, but it's still pretty fun. Dota 2 is a better base game, but there are a lot more heroes with summoning units in their 'kit' (along with items that do that), so I'd recommend LoL in this case.
He said LOW APM. If you're not on your toes in a MOBA/Action RTS game, you're going to die. A lot. And then people can AND will direct their rage onto you.