Ruling by French Court in Favour of Steam Users Reselling their Games, Valve Appeals

Neurotic Void Melody

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Interesting turn of events for PC users recently, though nothing can move yet with valve appealing the decision. Am putting the article words in spoiler below because my own use of words are just plain terrible most of the time;


A court in France has ruled that Steam users have the right to resell their games, following a case brought against the digital storefront giant by consumer group UFC Que Choisir in 2015.

The consumer group initially bought the case to the District Court of Paris (as reported by French websites Next Impact and Numerama) in order to contest the legality of certain clauses within Steam's Subscriber Agreement under European law. Of primary concern was UFC Que Choisir's belief that digital games should, like their physical counterparts, be eligible for resale.

Ultimately, judges agreed with the organisation, using a 2012 European Court ruling (which said that a transaction for digital goods still implies the transfer of the right of ownership) as the basis of its decision, saying that Valve "can no longer oppose the resale of this copy...even if the initial purchase is made by downloading". Valve's terms attempted to frame a sale as a 'subscription' to a product, but the court ruled that users were, in fact, purchasing licenses, enabling European law to come into play.

A number of other rulings we made in favour of the UFC Que Choisir too, with the court proclaiming that fourteen clauses in Valve's Steam Subscriber Agreement could not be enforced. For instance, judges said Valve cannot legally keep the contents of Steam Wallet funds when a user leaves the platform, and users should be reimbursed when requested. Additionally, it said that Valve should accept responsibility when software used on its platform harms a user, even if it's in beta, should reduce its claim on mods and user-created content, and must be clearer about the ways players can lose access to their Steam library for poor conduct.

If Valve refuses to abide by the ruling and post the French court's decision to Steam within a month, it will have to pay a fine of 3,000 Euros per day for up to six months.

With this success in the bag, the UFC Que Choisir says it plans to take action against other platforms and products - although it's worth noting that the case isn't yet closed. Valve still has the right to appeal and, as Doug Lombardi told PC Gamer in a statement following the ruling, that's exactly what the company plans to do.

"We disagree with the decision of the Paris Court of First Instance and will appeal it," said Lombardi, "The decision will have no effect on Steam while the case is on appeal".

This isn't the first time that Valve has been involved with courts over its perceived anti-consumer practices, of course. In 2014, the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission sued Valve (ultimately with success) over its failure to comply with local consumer law by denying purchasers the right to refund their games. The ACCC argued that while Valve had no physical presence in the country, the goods it sold were still subject to local law.

Are there opinions on this ruling? Will valve be able to use their Batman-esque superpower of Infinite-Money to win their appeal? What does this bore for the future of digital games, do you think? Personally, I hope it leads somewhere cause I've always hated being stuck with a shite purchase forever that you can't even physically destroy. And steam needs a healthy tasering up the arse to jolt it out of complacency.

(Is this a games or a current events topic? If it's wrong subforum, sorry! Have generally been pretty bad at knowing what pigeon-hole to put the peg in)
 

McElroy

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Talking about games that function completely or mostly offline, this would essentially make Steam a "legal" distributor of pirated games. One person buys the license to a game, resells it for zero money once it's been downloaded, and again and again and again... Sure you wouldn't have a license to download the game anymore, but nobody is forcing you to delete the local copy.
 

Squilookle

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Yeah I'd call this a gaming thread, but that's just IMHO.

I hope this Ruling passes, and gets upheld with every service, everywhere. Considering this sort of DRM was created out of a desire to strangle the used game market -which it did- to see them forced to welcome used game sales back (and even host them on their own services!) would be most gratifying to see.

As long as developers receive a cut of every resale amount, then it won't be much different for them than current purchases that wait for the sales to arrive before buying anyway. Basically everyone wins except for the publishers, who are behind the market strangling in the first place, so it's just desserts.
 

meiam

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It still feel like crusty old man not understanding technology making decision. How would this actually work? Will Valve have to make the marketplace for it? Can a ruling force them to do just that? If a court said Ford had to let people re sell there car, the ruling couldn't force Ford to open re seller, so how will that work anyway? Couldn't Valve just claim that since people can sell there account then technically people can already re sell old game? Will the ruling only affect Valve? Is the resell value going to be fixed or up to the person? If it's up to the person then you'll have huge problem of people mass buying during sale just for re sell purpose. What about selling from different region, some game are much more expensive in some region, so people could buy it cheap in one region and resell in another region.

Ultimately you can't treat digital object the same as physical object, there's no degradation of value, a used game is identical to a new one. This could be really devastating for smaller game who depend on long tail of sales and word to mouth, these usually have small first weak sales but over time build a reputation, but if the first few peoples who purchased it start re selling them for cheaper, then the small indie dev will get much less money over time, especially if they don't get a cut.
 

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Meiam said:
It still feel like crusty old man not understanding technology making decision. How would this actually work? Will Valve have to make the marketplace for it? Can a ruling force them to do just that? If a court said Ford had to let people re sell there car, the ruling couldn't force Ford to open re seller, so how will that work anyway? Couldn't Valve just claim that since people can sell there account then technically people can already re sell old game? Will the ruling only affect Valve? Is the resell value going to be fixed or up to the person? If it's up to the person then you'll have huge problem of people mass buying during sale just for re sell purpose. What about selling from different region, some game are much more expensive in some region, so people could buy it cheap in one region and resell in another region.

Ultimately you can't treat digital object the same as physical object, there's no degradation of value, a used game is identical to a new one. This could be really devastating for smaller game who depend on long tail of sales and word to mouth, these usually have small first weak sales but over time build a reputation, but if the first few peoples who purchased it start re selling them for cheaper, then the small indie dev will get much less money over time, especially if they don't get a cut.
The price drop or degermation of value also comes from supply and demand. A couple of years after release, not many people want to purchase the game, thus the price drops to match the market.

But yes, small indie devs are going to be affected. Nor does Steam have to open a market. Lastly, we don't own the game we 'buy'. Steam does. Steam made sure that we don't have any claims here.
 

Worgen

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Whatever, just wash your hands.
I'm not sure this ruling is good. On one hand it would be nice to resell games I know I don't want but... selling digital goods is a really weird thing since there is almost no cost to creating keys... I think this might actually really damage the virtual goods market, which might or might not be a good thing. But I don't see a good way to implement this in a way that doesn't screw over indie and even big studios. I think this is a bad ruling that just won't work.

The only way I can see this working is that if digital stores change from a buying model to a subscription service, like literally one, where the user pays a monthly fee to have access to a certain number of games.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Squilookle said:
Yeah I'd call this a gaming thread, but that's just IMHO.

I hope this Ruling passes, and gets upheld with every service, everywhere. Considering this sort of DRM was created out of a desire to strangle the used game market -which it did- to see them forced to welcome used game sales back (and even host them on their own services!) would be most gratifying to see.

As long as developers receive a cut of every resale amount, then it won't be much different for them than current purchases that wait for the sales to arrive before buying anyway. Basically everyone wins except for the publishers, who are behind the market strangling in the first place, so it's just desserts.
I don't think you understand just how bad things will be if this is allowed. Can people only resell on Steam itself or can they do it just through E-mails or other platforms? If the latter then that means one person buying a game could then cause the developer to never receive another cent for it because that one person can "resell" their game an infinite number of times since it's just data. This also doesn't just effect Valve but other platforms for the sale of games.

If we want to look at doomsday scenarios then this could lead to the abandonment of downloaded games which will in turn break the back of the indie scene as everyone that can afford to will go back to physical media and everyone that can't just won't be able to make games unless they don't expect to get money out of them.

Even if this was just reselling on Steam, if the person selling the game is determining the price then they could resell their game to a friend, who sells it to a friend, who sells it to a friend, and they all sell it for 0$ because they are all mutual friends and the developed gets nothing from it because a portion of 0 is 0.

This is a not a question of corporations vs the people. The entire balance of how we buy and play games could be completely destroyed by this ruling. No one wins in this scenario.
 

Squilookle

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Specter Von Baren said:
Squilookle said:
Yeah I'd call this a gaming thread, but that's just IMHO.

I hope this Ruling passes, and gets upheld with every service, everywhere. Considering this sort of DRM was created out of a desire to strangle the used game market -which it did- to see them forced to welcome used game sales back (and even host them on their own services!) would be most gratifying to see.

As long as developers receive a cut of every resale amount, then it won't be much different for them than current purchases that wait for the sales to arrive before buying anyway. Basically everyone wins except for the publishers, who are behind the market strangling in the first place, so it's just desserts.
I don't think you understand just how bad things will be if this is allowed. Can people only resell on Steam itself or can they do it just through E-mails or other platforms? If the latter then that means one person buying a game could then cause the developer to never receive another cent for it because that one person can "resell" their game an infinite number of times since it's just data. This also doesn't just effect Valve but other platforms for the sale of games.

If we want to look at doomsday scenarios then this could lead to the abandonment of downloaded games which will in turn break the back of the indie scene as everyone that can afford to will go back to physical media and everyone that can't just won't be able to make games unless they don't expect to get money out of them.

Even if this was just reselling on Steam, if the person selling the game is determining the price then they could resell their game to a friend, who sells it to a friend, who sells it to a friend, and they all sell it for 0$ because they are all mutual friends and the developed gets nothing from it because a portion of 0 is 0.

This is a not a question of corporations vs the people. The entire balance of how we buy and play games could be completely destroyed by this ruling. No one wins in this scenario.
I would have thought it was painfully obvious the resale would need to be through the original service, at a fixed aftermarket price.
 

Specter Von Baren

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Squilookle said:
Specter Von Baren said:
Squilookle said:
Yeah I'd call this a gaming thread, but that's just IMHO.

I hope this Ruling passes, and gets upheld with every service, everywhere. Considering this sort of DRM was created out of a desire to strangle the used game market -which it did- to see them forced to welcome used game sales back (and even host them on their own services!) would be most gratifying to see.

As long as developers receive a cut of every resale amount, then it won't be much different for them than current purchases that wait for the sales to arrive before buying anyway. Basically everyone wins except for the publishers, who are behind the market strangling in the first place, so it's just desserts.
I don't think you understand just how bad things will be if this is allowed. Can people only resell on Steam itself or can they do it just through E-mails or other platforms? If the latter then that means one person buying a game could then cause the developer to never receive another cent for it because that one person can "resell" their game an infinite number of times since it's just data. This also doesn't just effect Valve but other platforms for the sale of games.

If we want to look at doomsday scenarios then this could lead to the abandonment of downloaded games which will in turn break the back of the indie scene as everyone that can afford to will go back to physical media and everyone that can't just won't be able to make games unless they don't expect to get money out of them.

Even if this was just reselling on Steam, if the person selling the game is determining the price then they could resell their game to a friend, who sells it to a friend, who sells it to a friend, and they all sell it for 0$ because they are all mutual friends and the developed gets nothing from it because a portion of 0 is 0.

This is a not a question of corporations vs the people. The entire balance of how we buy and play games could be completely destroyed by this ruling. No one wins in this scenario.
I would have thought it was painfully obvious the resale would need to be through the original service, at a fixed aftermarket price.
And what would that market price be? Who decides what that price is? If I buy a game for 50$ does Steam decide that the fixed market price for my resale is 40$? Would another resale lower it to 30$? At what point does the original developer see almost nothing from the sale of the "resold" game? Would the original developer even GET any money from the resale? If the price just keeps going down then even if it gets to the point where I'm only getting 3$ from each sale, why NOT just keep reselling it if it's going around a group of my friends? That's a lot of people continuing to devalue that game despite it just being data that's being copied and deleted over and over. If the game is considered my property after I've bought it then couldn't it be argued that neither Steam nor the developer should get any share from my resold game?

There are a lot of questions with something like this and it is not straightforward, someone somewhere will decide how these systems work.
 

Squilookle

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Specter Von Baren said:
Squilookle said:
Specter Von Baren said:
Squilookle said:
Yeah I'd call this a gaming thread, but that's just IMHO.

I hope this Ruling passes, and gets upheld with every service, everywhere. Considering this sort of DRM was created out of a desire to strangle the used game market -which it did- to see them forced to welcome used game sales back (and even host them on their own services!) would be most gratifying to see.

As long as developers receive a cut of every resale amount, then it won't be much different for them than current purchases that wait for the sales to arrive before buying anyway. Basically everyone wins except for the publishers, who are behind the market strangling in the first place, so it's just desserts.
I don't think you understand just how bad things will be if this is allowed. Can people only resell on Steam itself or can they do it just through E-mails or other platforms? If the latter then that means one person buying a game could then cause the developer to never receive another cent for it because that one person can "resell" their game an infinite number of times since it's just data. This also doesn't just effect Valve but other platforms for the sale of games.

If we want to look at doomsday scenarios then this could lead to the abandonment of downloaded games which will in turn break the back of the indie scene as everyone that can afford to will go back to physical media and everyone that can't just won't be able to make games unless they don't expect to get money out of them.

Even if this was just reselling on Steam, if the person selling the game is determining the price then they could resell their game to a friend, who sells it to a friend, who sells it to a friend, and they all sell it for 0$ because they are all mutual friends and the developed gets nothing from it because a portion of 0 is 0.

This is a not a question of corporations vs the people. The entire balance of how we buy and play games could be completely destroyed by this ruling. No one wins in this scenario.
I would have thought it was painfully obvious the resale would need to be through the original service, at a fixed aftermarket price.
And what would that market price be? Who decides what that price is? If I buy a game for 50$ does Steam decide that the fixed market price for my resale is 40$? Would another resale lower it to 30$? At what point does the original developer see almost nothing from the sale of the "resold" game? Would the original developer even GET any money from the resale? If the price just keeps going down then even if it gets to the point where I'm only getting 3$ from each sale, why NOT just keep reselling it if it's going around a group of my friends? That's a lot of people continuing to devalue that game despite it just being data that's being copied and deleted over and over. If the game is considered my property after I've bought it then couldn't it be argued that neither Steam nor the developer should get any share from my resold game?

There are a lot of questions with something like this and it is not straightforward, someone somewhere will decide how these systems work.
Would you just drop the hysteria and pull yourself together for a moment? I said a fixed after market price. So it doesn't go down over time. You just take the original price of the game when new- deduct a fixed percentage off that (just enough to warrant buying resale over shelling out for the new one for savvy buyers), give the online store a small transaction fee from that, and then split the remainder between the seller and the original developer.

It's honestly no worse than indie games suffering the already existing summer sales, where everybody holds off buying their games until they go on sale at 75% off, or sometimes even up to 90% off, giving the devs a pittance. Not only will they probably get more money off resales than summer sales anyway, but their income will be more consistent and easier to plan around too.
 

gsilver

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I see one of the following happening:

1. Valve wins the appeal
2. Valve blocks all sales in France
3. Valve lets people sell entire accounts (and not individual games)
 
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I would appreciate the possibility of revoking an assigned key. I have a boxed game, i'd gladly sell, if it wasn't permamently tied to an account.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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See, I don't recall there being much of a second hand PC game market so I find the grip that some people have on it to be baffling. Console second hand sales are fairly straight forward because the game is still largely run of a physical disc. Same as a second hand CD album or DVD/BluRay movie.
 

meiam

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Gordon_4 said:
See, I don't recall there being much of a second hand PC game market so I find the grip that some people have on it to be baffling. Console second hand sales are fairly straight forward because the game is still largely run of a physical disc. Same as a second hand CD album or DVD/BluRay movie.
PC market pre steam days was never big enough to warrant carrying used game, that's why most game store had very small PC section.
 

Satinavian

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Lastly, we don't own the game we 'buy'. Steam does. Steam made sure that we don't have any claims here.
That is not true in Europe and in fact has not been true for quite a while.

EU customers do own their games if they buy them. But licences and time limited licences can still exist. It is a complicated legal mess but at least half of all end user agreements and terms of service for games are not actually valid here, which makes severability clauses all the more important. Traditionally publishers have been extremely cautios in testing all the rights they give themselves in EU courts for that reason.

The verdict is not a surprise. There were earlier decisions forbidding publishers from forbidding customers to resell keys and stuff.
But there is no law that forces publishers to make that easy or accessible.

Specter Von Baren said:
I don't think you understand just how bad things will be if this is allowed. Can people only resell on Steam itself or can they do it just through E-mails or other platforms? If the latter then that means one person buying a game could then cause the developer to never receive another cent for it because that one person can "resell" their game an infinite number of times since it's just data. This also doesn't just effect Valve but other platforms for the sale of games.
No, they can resell the one copy/licence they have. And this will eventually end up like the market for Windows keys, which, as you might know, are legally tradeable in Europe.
 

CaitSeith

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This makes me wonder: how is Epic Games Store handling EU's game ownership laws?
 

Worgen

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Gordon_4 said:
See, I don't recall there being much of a second hand PC game market so I find the grip that some people have on it to be baffling. Console second hand sales are fairly straight forward because the game is still largely run of a physical disc. Same as a second hand CD album or DVD/BluRay movie.
Meiam said:
PC market pre steam days was never big enough to warrant carrying used game, that's why most game store had very small PC section.
Actually there was one back in the day, I remember there actually being stores dedicated to renting pc games and Electronics boutique used to have used PC games also. Digital distribution really killed that off hard, but it was one of those things that a lot of places didn't want to risk since publishers would come for them and accuse them of piracy, which is a lot more valid then renting a physical cart where you can't just copy the thing to a hard-drive. Plus a lot of game makers had their own copy protection schemes going on where users would have to answer questions before they could play, and if the book or something got lost then you couldn't play the game and that also made it hard to rent or resell computer games.
 

Squilookle

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Worgen said:
Gordon_4 said:
See, I don't recall there being much of a second hand PC game market so I find the grip that some people have on it to be baffling. Console second hand sales are fairly straight forward because the game is still largely run of a physical disc. Same as a second hand CD album or DVD/BluRay movie.
Meiam said:
PC market pre steam days was never big enough to warrant carrying used game, that's why most game store had very small PC section.
Actually there was one back in the day, I remember there actually being stores dedicated to renting pc games and Electronics boutique used to have used PC games also. Digital distribution really killed that off hard, but it was one of those things that a lot of places didn't want to risk since publishers would come for them and accuse them of piracy, which is a lot more valid then renting a physical cart where you can't just copy the thing to a hard-drive. Plus a lot of game makers had their own copy protection schemes going on where users would have to answer questions before they could play, and if the book or something got lost then you couldn't play the game and that also made it hard to rent or resell computer games.
Exactly- used game sales were huge back in the day, with every brick and mortar store having a section, usually front and centre, where used games were resold. It was one of the biggest reasons to browse in those stores, to see if any hidden gems were discounted. The whole reason Steam was invented was specifically to stamp out that whole industry, as well as having the last word in copy protection.
 

Worgen

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Squilookle said:
Worgen said:
Gordon_4 said:
See, I don't recall there being much of a second hand PC game market so I find the grip that some people have on it to be baffling. Console second hand sales are fairly straight forward because the game is still largely run of a physical disc. Same as a second hand CD album or DVD/BluRay movie.
Meiam said:
PC market pre steam days was never big enough to warrant carrying used game, that's why most game store had very small PC section.
Actually there was one back in the day, I remember there actually being stores dedicated to renting pc games and Electronics boutique used to have used PC games also. Digital distribution really killed that off hard, but it was one of those things that a lot of places didn't want to risk since publishers would come for them and accuse them of piracy, which is a lot more valid then renting a physical cart where you can't just copy the thing to a hard-drive. Plus a lot of game makers had their own copy protection schemes going on where users would have to answer questions before they could play, and if the book or something got lost then you couldn't play the game and that also made it hard to rent or resell computer games.
Exactly- used game sales were huge back in the day, with every brick and mortar store having a section, usually front and centre, where used games were resold. It was one of the biggest reasons to browse in those stores, to see if any hidden gems were discounted. The whole reason Steam was invented was specifically to stamp out that whole industry, as well as having the last word in copy protection.
Umm, no. Used game sales were huge but mainly for console games, pc games... well, there was a market for it but it wasn't huge. It was there and publishers did target it, but most of what they did was to combat piracy since its easy to share pc games and difficult to ensure they aren't copied. Steam was created mainly to deliver patches and act as DRM for Half Life 2/The Orange Box.