Runescape Bot Maker Loses Big In Lawsuit

Andy Chalk

One Flag, One Fleet, One Cat
Nov 12, 2002
45,698
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Runescape Bot Maker Loses Big In Lawsuit


The makers of the Runescape-hacking iBot are about to eat a seriously expensive knuckle sandwich of litigation.

A lawsuit between Runescape [http://www.runescape.com/] studio Jagex and Impulse Software, the maker of the "iBot" software that allows players to level up even when they're not actually playing the game, is about to end in a big victory for Jagex in the form of an award "in excess of six figures." While the judge in the case has not yet signed off on it, a Boston court ruled last week that Impulse is guilty of copyright infringement, circumvention of technological protection measures and even computer fraud.

Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.

"Throughout the course of this lawsuit, we've come to understand the harm that botting does to Runescape and Jagex.
 We'd like to apologize to Jagex and to all legitimate Runescape players for the damage and harm iBot has done," Impulse said in a statement.

"In the next few weeks our websites, domains, code and customer details will be passed over to Jagex along with details of all those people who we know have developed scripts for iBot and sold or re-sold those scripts," it continued. "Shortly, all references to iBot and Impulse Software will disappear from the internet. We'd encourage all of you who have scripts or iBot to delete them and certainty not to try and use or develop them."

It's not a conclusion that most people would have expected back in 2010. In September of that year, a court denied Jagex's request for a preliminary injunction against Impulse and iBot, saying that it did not believe the studio would "suffer irreparable harm" without the injunction and furthermore, that the company was "unlikely to succeed" with its claims.

Sources: Gamasutra [http://www.develop-online.net/news/39563/Imminent-court-ruling-to-choke-Runescape-hackers]


Permalink
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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Andy Chalk said:
Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.
Ouch. Still, I do hope this sets some kind of precedent. People who use bots/trainers are terrible people and should feel terrible. (Yes, Escapees. I made a blanket statement. COME AT ME, BRO!)
 

Electric Alpaca

What's on the menu?
May 2, 2011
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Andy Chalk said:
"In the next few weeks our websites, domains, code and customer details will be passed over to Jagex along with details of all those people who we know have developed scripts for iBot and sold or re-sold those scripts,"
It hasn't ended yet, those that have purchased these programmes are just about to be subject to Jagex's continued wrath - there isn't any way I wouldn't make an example of all of those taking advantage of the iBot and hit them with at least lifetime bans also.

If you circumvent rules of a game once, you'll certainly look to do it again, and if one cares about something enough to pursue illegitimate means to progress themselves, they shall definitely care when their accounts are destroyed.
 

keiskay

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Nov 18, 2011
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Kopikatsu said:
Andy Chalk said:
Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.
Ouch. Still, I do hope this sets some kind of precedent. People who use bots/trainers are terrible people and should feel terrible. (Yes, Escapees. I made a blanket statement. COME AT ME, BRO!)
rune scape is a terrible game that should be renamed to grindscape. considering how long it takes to get one skill to 99 let alone 5 or 6. wanna make money go fish farming for 20 hours and rake in the money. wanna get the best armor? well go fish farm or enemy farm till you get enough supplies or money to buy or make the damn thing.

if runescape wasn't so tedious and boring to level up skills there wouldnt be much bot use. and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
 

Ilikemilkshake

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Jun 7, 2010
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keiskay said:
Kopikatsu said:
Andy Chalk said:
Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.
Ouch. Still, I do hope this sets some kind of precedent. People who use bots/trainers are terrible people and should feel terrible. (Yes, Escapees. I made a blanket statement. COME AT ME, BRO!)
rune scape is a terrible game that should be renamed to grindscape. considering how long it takes to get one skill to 99 let alone 5 or 6. wanna make money go fish farming for 20 hours and rake in the money. wanna get the best armor? well go fish farm or enemy farm till you get enough supplies or money to buy or make the damn thing.

if runescape wasn't so tedious and boring to level up skills there wouldnt be much bot use. and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.
 

Sylveria

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Nov 15, 2009
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Wonder how many accounts they'll lose now that all the bots are gone. I remember Aion's subscription numbers dropped by about 75% once they started banning bots.
 

Revnak_v1legacy

Fixed by "Monday"
Mar 28, 2010
1,979
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keiskay said:
Kopikatsu said:
Andy Chalk said:
Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.
Ouch. Still, I do hope this sets some kind of precedent. People who use bots/trainers are terrible people and should feel terrible. (Yes, Escapees. I made a blanket statement. COME AT ME, BRO!)
rune scape is a terrible game that should be renamed to grindscape. considering how long it takes to get one skill to 99 let alone 5 or 6. wanna make money go fish farming for 20 hours and rake in the money. wanna get the best armor? well go fish farm or enemy farm till you get enough supplies or money to buy or make the damn thing.

if runescape wasn't so tedious and boring to level up skills there wouldnt be much bot use. and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
It doesn't really hurt the company (at least not that much), it hurts the other players. It allows for a bot using player to out compete all the other players in the game. This is why I hate the people who made these bot and those that use them. Fucking piss me off. I am pretty happy to see bot programmers getting what they deserve.
 

gigastar

Insert one-liner here.
Sep 13, 2010
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keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
 

CM156_v1legacy

Revelation 9:6
Mar 23, 2011
3,971
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gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
Hey, they're only doing the work that Americans players don't want to do.

OT: Don't play runescape, but I found this to make me happy.
 

Andy Chalk

One Flag, One Fleet, One Cat
Nov 12, 2002
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God damn, this game still exists?

The botters were such a problem that I quit SIX YEARS AGO. I mean, fuck.
 

Mischlings

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Feb 18, 2011
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Funny that I see this here first, not on the Runescape official site (former player, but still follow the news and community).

For those asking, 50-60% of the player base disappeared when the bots were banned (the "Bot Nuke", they called it, which was a large change to the underlying code that, amazingly, didn't affect how real people played the game but, if I understand the programming properly, completely changed the object and class structure that the bots took advantage of), so it was large, but not catastrophic.

Botting has always been a big deal with Runescape -- they completely changed the way the game operated in December 2007 to make botting not worth it, then changed it back last year -- so it's good to see them making so much headway towards getting that under control.

And to the people I've heard talking about the real problem being grinding -- they know, and it's something they've been working on -- not just a change you can make to the game overnight.
 

Smallells

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Feb 18, 2010
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Despite playing it for a period of over two years, I despised this game with a vengeance. However, I always thought that Jagex were fantastic in what they did do to the game and the community - adding random events that both served to break the mundanity and to further their own attempts to stop bot, thus managing to to not affect normal players in any way.

Rubbish, mind-numbing game. But it's nice to see Jagex get a win that they thoroughly deserve.
 

Soods

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Jan 6, 2010
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Maybe it wouldn't be so easy to make such bots, if the gameplay consisted of something else than clicking on a spot and waiting. But still, using (or making) bots is pointless and evil.
 

Freyar

Solar Empire General
May 9, 2008
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Is ANYONE else concerned that Jagex is actually getting customer details from them too? That just reeks of "WTF".
 

darkszero

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Apr 1, 2010
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I like the fact that bots got banned. I don't like exactly how it happened: "copyright infringement, circumvention of technological protection measures and even computer fraud."
The second is just DMCA, just ugly but legal. The third one is odd while the first one is WAT. I fear for the future.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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People who bot aren't half as terrible as the people who put huge amounts of grind into their game. Grind is anti-game. It isn't fun. It doesn't add anything to the experience. It doesn't even balance gameplay.

Knowing that, I see botting as a purely reactionary response to a bad gameplay mechanic. Does it suck for everyone else who isn't botting? Depends: (PvP or PvE.)
But even then, you're trying to defend a poorly-designed game when you defend grind.

(hacking that changes the parameters of the gameplay on the other hand, I don't agree with at all. Botting will enable someone to reach an established threshold quicker; it doesn't actually increase the threshold. Bots that replace a players' skill like aimbots, obviously don't count here, as they effectively change the rules by eliminating skill from skill-centric games)
 

Sovvolf

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Mar 23, 2009
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Atmos Duality said:
Well, honestly, if you* don't like the grind, don't play the game. If that truly is the main focus of the game (I don't know, last time I played runescape was about 8(?) years ago) then you know what you're getting in for when you start playing. If grinding isn't your style then you shouldn't be anywhere near it.

Botting is just cheating, it goes against the point of the game. To me its no different from buying a top level character in an MMO cause you can't be bothered to level it up.

* You as in people in general, not specifically you.
 

Weaver

Overcaffeinated
Apr 28, 2008
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I think the only game I ever botted in was ROSE Online. It wasn't very popular and it took, if I recall correctly 1.5 years for the first person to hit max level. And this dude was a korean super gamer who played 16 hours a day.

It was the biggest grind i've ever seen.
 

Micalas

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Mar 5, 2011
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Ilikemilkshake said:
As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.
The fucked up economy boat has long since sailed. I haven't played the game in about decade and I remember the 100 million gold items people sold quite well. The Runescape economy envies Zimbabwe's economic prowess.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
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Electric Alpaca said:
Andy Chalk said:
"In the next few weeks our websites, domains, code and customer details will be passed over to Jagex along with details of all those people who we know have developed scripts for iBot and sold or re-sold those scripts,"
It hasn't ended yet, those that have purchased these programmes are just about to be subject to Jagex's continued wrath - there isn't any way I wouldn't make an example of all of those taking advantage of the iBot and hit them with at least lifetime bans also.

If you circumvent rules of a game once, you'll certainly look to do it again, and if one cares about something enough to pursue illegitimate means to progress themselves, they shall definitely care when their accounts are destroyed.
Actually, depending on what kind of person we're talking about here, bots are usually throwaway accounts gathering for either black market profit, or personal gain without as much risk depending on how your IP addresses are handled. The largest offenders haven't had any personal risk...up until now.

As for the WTF about getting customer details, it was kind of their risk when they decided to give them to an entity operating under shady means...

Although the main details are omitted, the settlement was "in excess of six figures" and the losers had to pony up the house they got with their botter money.



This is not the house of an honest person.

 

jhaughton

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Nov 19, 2009
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you know it is funny
the second i read this i immediately downloaded the ibot program, and i dont even play runscape.
 

Kopikatsu

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May 27, 2010
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weirdguy said:
This is not the house of an honest person.
Coincidentally, that house isn't half as nice as Kim Dotcom's 30 million NZ mansion.

Freyar said:
Is ANYONE else concerned that Jagex is actually getting customer details from them too? That just reeks of "WTF".
...Pretty much every company ever collects and hands out your details. Why do you think you get so much junk mail all the time?
 

Gather

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Apr 9, 2009
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must transfer ownership of its websites
Ouch... Impulse is a good game developer and they are dealt this heavy of a blow? Holy god-diggty monkeys. That's practically saying "Hey guys, Zygax now owns Impulse due to a bot program."

That is a freaking harsh sentence and I don't think the judge knows it.
 

Baradiel

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Mar 4, 2009
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And.... unleash the hate for Runescape!!

Seriously, I have some good memories of that game. I loved it, and still do. I don't play it much anymore, but I started playing it about 7 or 8 years ago. It got too tedious to level up (most of my skills were in the 80s or 90s) so I eventually stopped playing regularly. I still pop on for a bit. I think I've still got membership running on my card.
 

Atmos Duality

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Sovvolf said:
Well, honestly, if you* don't like the grind, don't play the game. If that truly is the main focus of the game (I don't know, last time I played runescape was about 8(?) years ago) then you know what you're getting in for when you start playing. If grinding isn't your style then you shouldn't be anywhere near it.
Grind isn't a "style". It isn't even a legitimate gameplay concept or mechanic.
Grind is this and nothing else: A mechanic that deliberately wastes the player's time.

Prepare yourself: This is about to get long, and for that I apologize.


Botting is just cheating, it goes against the point of the game. To me its no different from buying a top level character in an MMO cause you can't be bothered to level it up.
1) "Botting is just cheating, it goes against the point of the game."
Actually, botting does not go against the point of the game.
Think about it: The point of most MMOs is to "level up" so that you can overcome greater obstacles. Botting accelerates that process; it doesn't replace it.

If the sole metric of challenge is a player's ability to withstand hours upon hours of boredom, IT ISN'T A LEGITIMATE GAME.

2) "...because you can't be bothered to level it up."

Stop and think for a moment. Why does this bother you? It isn't your character, it isn't your gameplay experience that is being altered*
[sub](*assume for a moment it doesn't. Don't worry, I'm addressing where it actually does later)[/sub]

The only difference between you and that botted character, is that they spent much less time grinding than you.
So what? So they spent less time playing. They didn't suddenly make the game worse for you.
You (ultimately) get access to the same quests, the same items, the same bloody *EVERYTHING*.

So by that logic, the only reason you would care is if you are jealous. And the only reason you would be jealous is that you didn't enjoy playing the game that long to get to that level.

You had to GRIND to get to where you are, and they didn't. Therefore, the GRIND is to blame.
It didn't add anything to your experience, it just artificially lengthened it.
Now for those caveats I mentioned earlier.

Caveats and rebuttals for thus:

i) "Botters ruin the player-driven-economy"
So they do. But you know what gives real-life value to those items the botters and gold-farmers sell?
Grind. The value of an item is based largely on two things: Its availability and its usefulness.

"Usefulness" is a function of the metagame, and doesn't tie into grind at all on its own (beyond the trend that developers place the most useful/powerful items at the highest rarities, but this is an arbitrary decision on their part).

"Availability" however, is a function of economics...Ahh.

So...
If everything were readily available, but not necessarily useful, then it becomes a game based purely on execution (after some trial-and-error to eliminate the weakest metagame choices of course).
But...
If everything were not readily available, then the value of any given item would increase by simple Supply and Demand; AMPLIFIED by usefulness.

So when an item is only valuable because you have to waste your time doing lots of mechanically-easy, but boring busywork to find it, it's hard to justify an entire economy comprised of those items.

ii) "Botters ruin PvP because they have better/twinked characters"
First, I need to make this clear: In order to be fun and balanced, PvP games MUST be based on planning and execution. You are matching your wits and skills against another player. That is the primary motivator for "friendly"(no-stakes) competition, no?

FACT: When you deny players an even playing field to start with, it isn't balanced.

"But earlier, you said that everyone ultimately ends up with the same stuff, which means everyone has the same options. Therefore, it is balanced"

I did, but this assumes two conditions:
1) That every player is given an unlimited amount of time to attain everything/access to everything.
2) And that the metagame conditions do not change (patches that introduce a new tier of gear, for example. Muck with existing skills, etc).

In practice, that isn't the case, and it is here that Grind has profoundly NEGATIVE effects.

In a game based purely on strategy/execution, grind isn't needed. At all.
That player with the ultra-rare gear? Why is it ultra-rare? Because the drop rates are low.
In this, again, time = power (or value, in connecting it to the economy).

For a normal person to acquire that gear (and thus the edge in PvP), they need to be exceedingly lucky, or have a lot of time to waste doing the same damn thing over and over again.
Even in the best case scenario, you have turned PvP at least in part, INTO A GAME OF CHANCE, NOT SKILL (execution/strategy).

That is NOT legitimate gameplay design; not for PvP.
Even Professional Gamblers play games of numbers with which they know the bounds and the odds.

Playing PvP in which the entire game hinges on you getting a trinket that drops 5% of the time at the end of an hour long dungeon, is akin to playing a slot machine that (on average) pays out once every 20 HOURS.

And that's assuming you play SOLO. Add more people into the mix, more people who all wanted that item? You've now added a denominator to that 5%. With 10 people for a party/raid, that rate becomes 1 every 200 HOURS.

It's gambling: Only instead of directly betting money, you bid your free time.
You think the botter's cheating is bad? The House is worse.

* You as in people in general, not specifically you.
No offense taken in any case.
 

Farther than stars

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Jun 19, 2011
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I love how most people here act like they've never played an MMORPG before. I agree, Runscape is 90-99% grinding, which is completely aweful, but then so are most MMORPGs. The thing is though, it's big and it's multiplayer.
But, more importantly, it's free to play, which is something people have to rely on if they can't afford to buy a better game, for which I can't begrudge them. The people I will begrudge, however, are those who ruin the experience for other players by hacking into the game.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
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1. The status quo means that Jagex won't change their game until the players actually want it to change. The players who did want something else left.

2. In order to preserve the status quo, Jagex has to waste their time chasing these people down to enforce their rules.

If they change, they lose their remaining customers. If they don't go after the bots, they lose their remaining customers.

Easy choice, right?
 

Ziadaine_v1legacy

Flamboyant Homosexual
Apr 11, 2009
1,604
0
0
gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
About 60% of the users still cant make a decent earning due to the whole gambling phase that happened around the time of the bot nuke. long story short, poor players are unable to catch up due to the cost of leveling specific skills to match others but also need those skills to rake in the dough. And so the spiral of FUCK continues.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
2,634
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0
Actually for noobs, there are many things that do make decent money that you wouldn't think about and allow you to get a leg up (iron ore prices in particular are too high to make sense), but the struggle continues anyway.

I see a lot more opportunity for them now than before, however it would require them to know more than they usually would.
 

Farther than stars

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Jun 19, 2011
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Atmos Duality said:
Well, you made some interesting points there. But what I don't get is why you seem to hate this game with such a passion. I get your point that grinding is a bad thing; I agree, but I also get the point Sovvolf is making that if you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
After all, speaking from my own perspective there are a lot of things that I don't like and I have my opinions about those, but that doesn't mean that I have a problem with people playing certain games that I personally don't enjoy.
Do I think Runscape's a bad game? Yes, I would say that the grinding is dispicable. But that doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't have the right to exist, if not as a vent for the developers' creative minds, then for all the people who do enjoy it.
 

Will Holmes

New member
Mar 11, 2011
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ares556600 said:
People play runescape still? And wait the verdict was that it's better for people to click trees for hours than get a life and have it done automatically? And how do this negatively affect Jagex don't tell me they're doing micro transactions now.
*sigh* Yes, people play RuneScape, the number of members since the bot nuke has consistently been increasing. It has a huge and (since said bot nuke) healthy community that is full some of the friendliest people you'll ever meet.

There is grinding, but there is far less than there used to be, and there is easily enough variety that can make the entire experience extremely enjoyable. Players should be getting a life and joining friends chats, clans, teams, social groups and so on to do alongside the grinding. If you can't be sociable, then it's no wonder the world is so boring.

And Jagex have explicitly said they would never do micro-transactions in RuneScape. To this day, they've kept their word.
 

Cid Silverwing

Paladin of The Light
Jul 27, 2008
3,134
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0
Fawxy said:
God damn, this game still exists?

The botters were such a problem that I quit SIX YEARS AGO. I mean, fuck.
When something like this happens, you know something's gone wrong somewhere.
 

gigastar

Insert one-liner here.
Sep 13, 2010
4,419
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0
Ziadaine said:
gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
About 60% of the users still cant make a decent earning due to the whole gambling phase that happened around the time of the bot nuke. long story short, poor players are unable to catch up due to the cost of leveling specific skills to match others but also need those skills to rake in the dough. And so the spiral of FUCK continues.
Well, im not sure what you mean by that. There are various gathering skills you can do at almost no cost assuming you dont have the tools to raise money to train the other skills.

Also you dont need to use Soul Split on slayer assignments, its simply the best self-healing method to use and so people reccomend that first. Research your alternatives, basically.

And as far as i can see with the gambling phase, if people were stupid enough to break the games very clearly defined rules to do it, then they deserve to fail.
 

Whytewulf

New member
Dec 20, 2009
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Did you just try and justify things like BOTing? Guess what it's their game and if they don't want BOTs, a 3rd party can't infringe upon their code (copright violation as stated) and create one. And it's like you never played an MMOPRG before. Half the people only play to show off their new shiney toy they worked so hard to get. If everyone has one, the effort isn't worth it. Thus they may not play, thus people leave and the studio is harmed. I don't see how this suit is a bad thing.
 

Sovvolf

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Mar 23, 2009
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Atmos Duality said:
Sovvolf said:
Well, honestly, if you* don't like the grind, don't play the game. If that truly is the main focus of the game (I don't know, last time I played runescape was about 8(?) years ago) then you know what you're getting in for when you start playing. If grinding isn't your style then you shouldn't be anywhere near it.
Grind isn't a "style". It isn't even a legitimate gameplay concept or mechanic.
Grind is this and nothing else: A mechanic that deliberately wastes the player's time.
I always thought of it as a feeling of progression, further more, video games (and entertainment in general) is pretty much there to do nothing but to waste your time. Its a time passer, some just enjoy different means to having their times wasted than others.

To you, it must be the most boring feeling on this planet, for me... I actually enjoy it, the leveling up gives me the feeling of achievement and progression. Though with that its to each their own. Grinding can entertain me, to you it may not.

Atmos Duality said:
Prepare yourself: This is about to get long, and for that I apologize.
No shit G'ah long post, though I may have to limit myself to the ones regarding my argument. You made some good points in the others but there not the things I'm arguing.

Atmos Duality said:
Actually, botting does not go against the point of the game.
Think about it: The point of most MMOs is to "level up" so that you can overcome greater obstacles. Botting accelerates that process; it doesn't replace it.
Course it does, its someone doing all the work for you. Its like someone completing the game for you and they you just taking the credit for it.

Atmos Duality said:
If the sole metric of challenge is a player's ability to withstand hours upon hours of boredom, IT ISN'T A LEGITIMATE GAME.
1: As mentioned above it depends if its your thing or not, to you it may be boredom, to others that may be fun, fun is subjective.
2: Think we may be stepping into a "no true Scotsman" fallacy here.

Atmos Duality said:
2) "...because you can't be bothered to level it up."

Stop and think for a moment. Why does this bother you? It isn't your character, it isn't your gameplay experience that is being altered*
[sub](*assume for a moment it doesn't. Don't worry, I'm addressing where it actually does later)[/sub]

The only difference between you and that botted character, is that they spent much less time grinding than you.
So what? So they spent less time playing. They didn't suddenly make the game worse for you.
You (ultimately) get access to the same quests, the same items, the same bloody *EVERYTHING*.

So by that logic, the only reason you would care is if you are jealous. And the only reason you would be jealous is that you didn't enjoy playing the game that long to get to that level.

You had to GRIND to get to where you are, and they didn't. Therefore, the GRIND is to blame.
It didn't add anything to your experience, it just artificially lengthened it.
Well, its not really jealousy but the feeling of being cheated. Imagine, going to the gym and working out every day, eating healthy and putting all those hours in to making yourself look and feel good. Then some guy comes into the gym, sticks a load of needles into himself and there, all the same without any of the hard work.

You went out of your way and earned that only for some arsehole to pop up with the same thing but without putting the effort into it. To me, at that point... There's just no point in playing it if you do that.

Course it added to the experience, it is the experience, going from a lower 1 level character and working your way up into a powerhouse from time and effort. That's kind of the point of MMO's. Buying a top level character to me is the equivalent of entering the "Unlock all levels" cheat on a video game and then saying that you beat it.

Now before you get the wrong impression, I don't play MMO's or anything along those lines, I get to the level where you can't do anything without grouping and just give up cause I can't be arsed however, looking at it from the perspective as someone who does play it though. I'd be a bit peveed too.

Actually buying a level 60 character is kind of like some arsehole walking into a Martial Arts dojo with a paid for Black Belt. Real life is a grind specially training, I put hours of effort into getting mine (actually only a yellow belt in the martial arts I do that include belts but that's beside the point) then some guy, the same stedhead mentioned above comes into the gym with his freshly purchased one from a local sports store, would I be jealous? course not, I'd be outraged though. Course the fellow would got the same as these bots and be quickly kicked out of the gym but still... I hope you get my point.

Right I hope that clears the points up and this doesn't look a complete mess. When it comes to walls of texts I tend to get lost here and there. Sorry if that happens.
 

Vault101

I'm in your mind fuzz
Sep 26, 2010
18,847
0
0
I logged on a while ago

bot....everyoen was bots..it was invasion of the body snatchters or somthing
 

Jdb

New member
May 26, 2010
337
0
0
Runescape is the perfect example of how grind can ruin an otherwise decent game. For an MMO, Runescape's skill, quest, minigame, and player housing systems are unsurpassed. Too bad it takes at least three-thousand hours to max everything. And that's just the grind for skill levels. Certain skills and minigames have grinds within them too! The level of boredom associated with this much grinding is a war crime in fifty-seven countries.
 

JMeganSnow

New member
Aug 27, 2008
1,591
0
0
Ilikemilkshake said:
As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.
If it's possible to actually wreck the ingame economy using an automatic system, that's a *design flaw*, and the owners should not be entitled to harass people who take advantage of it. They're entitled to fix their design flaw is what they're entitled to do. And if they're too lazy to do it, oh well. Their players will leave, there will no longer be an incentive to bot, and the flawed, badly-designed game will die the death it deserves.

Now, me, I play an MMO where nobody bots, because you CAN'T--it takes an actual involved intelligence to get any of the benefits in the game. Heck, the devs accidentally broke the economy about a year ago by putting in a stupidly easy way to farm tons and tons of platinum. They then fixed it and never did anything to anybody who took advantage of it. Prices went up for a month or so. Now they're considerably LOWER than they were before since the devs also introduced several new, fun, and cool things that eat up tons of cash and resources.
 

Xan Krieger

Completely insane
Feb 11, 2009
2,918
0
0
"Shortly, all references to iBot and Impulse Software will disappear from the internet."
Riiight, they seem to forget that once something in on the internet it's there FOREVER. Someone has the bot code and someone will repost it and bots will continue to exist.
 
Jul 13, 2011
91
0
0
This is an excellent event, if you ask me. Despite that Runescape is indeed a very grind-y game, I've found its excellent minigames and quests still make it more worthwhile than say...facebook games.

I honestly hope this sets a precedent for botters in other games as well. I personally cannot stand botting as I lump them in with every other cheater who cares far too much about winning.
 

Hero in a half shell

It's not easy being green
Dec 30, 2009
4,286
0
0
I am (to my shame) am actually occasionally still active on Runescape (free2play only)
Atmos Duality said:
Actually, botting does not go against the point of the game.
Think about it: The point of most MMOs is to "level up" so that you can overcome greater obstacles. Botting accelerates that process; it doesn't replace it.

If the sole metric of challenge is a player's ability to withstand hours upon hours of boredom, IT ISN'T A LEGITIMATE GAME.
Yes, the point of MMO's is to level up, to see that little bar go higher and higher as you perform actions within the game. If you are botting then you are not leveling up. You are not accomplishing anything, you are not playing the game, but your little avatar is running around the mining guild taking up valuable resources, which stops legitimate players from being able to play and what do the botters get out of it? An end-game character they have no idea how to use.
I've had loads of level 100+ characters approach me in game and ask me noob questions. With a few questions I can discern that they have no knowledge whatsoever of how to actually play the game, because they botted or bought their high level account, which most will readily admit to doing.
Botting adds nothing to the botters gaming experience, and reduces the playing experience of legitimate players because there are finite resources in Runescape, and they swarm the best places. If you don't have the time to waste leveling up your character, then don't play Runescape, because the grind is sort of the point of the game.

i) "Botters ruin the player-driven-economy"
So they do. But you know what gives real-life value to those items the botters and gold-farmers sell?
Grind. The value of an item is based largely on two things: Its availability and its usefulness.

"Usefulness" is a function of the metagame, and doesn't tie into grind at all on its own (beyond the trend that developers place the most useful/powerful items at the highest rarities, but this is an arbitrary decision on their part).

"Availability" however, is a function of economics...Ahh.

So...
If everything were readily available, but not necessarily useful, then it becomes a game based purely on execution (after some trial-and-error to eliminate the weakest metagame choices of course).
But...
If everything were not readily available, then the value of any given item would increase by simple Supply and Demand; AMPLIFIED by usefulness.

So when an item is only valuable because you have to waste your time doing lots of mechanically-easy, but boring busywork to find it, it's hard to justify an entire economy comprised of those items.
Literally your only argument here is that it doesn't matter that botting ruins the in-game economy because it is based on grinding. If that is an issue for you then again I will say the solution is to not play the game. There are people who enjoy the grind, there are people who don't, if you are in the latter group then play a different game.
Yes, the Runescape economy is based off supply and demand, amplified by the items usefulness, but bots made supply of all materials several magnitudes higher than the demand, so inflation made most items valueless/ This especially affected the lower level items, so it was incredibly hard for new players to make money as they had to compete with bots to gather resources, and had to sell them at far lower prices, making less money (iron ore went from 99gp to 250+ when the bots were all banned!) Making playing the game less rewarding and more frustrating.

Believe me, the game is a million times better now that the bots are gone, and for anyone that relied on bots to play the game, well, Runescape is better off without them. Simply put, the game was not meant for them.
 

Ilikemilkshake

New member
Jun 7, 2010
1,982
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JMeganSnow said:
Ilikemilkshake said:
As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.
If it's possible to actually wreck the ingame economy using an automatic system, that's a *design flaw*, and the owners should not be entitled to harass people who take advantage of it. They're entitled to fix their design flaw is what they're entitled to do. And if they're too lazy to do it, oh well. Their players will leave, there will no longer be an incentive to bot, and the flawed, badly-designed game will die the death it deserves.

Now, me, I play an MMO where nobody bots, because you CAN'T--it takes an actual involved intelligence to get any of the benefits in the game. Heck, the devs accidentally broke the economy about a year ago by putting in a stupidly easy way to farm tons and tons of platinum. They then fixed it and never did anything to anybody who took advantage of it. Prices went up for a month or so. Now they're considerably LOWER than they were before since the devs also introduced several new, fun, and cool things that eat up tons of cash and resources.
You make a fair point. I still wouldnt agree that that makes it acceptable for players to exploit this though and use bots when its both against the rules and the spirit of the game and community.
 

CardinalPiggles

New member
Jun 24, 2010
3,226
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It's a bit late for this really, about 6-8 years too late I think.

But god damn it it's nice to see some justice for a change.
 

PinkiePyro

New member
Sep 26, 2010
1,121
0
0
I dont fucking care about runescape
but ..
I hate bots
Hey Nexon! take some notes on this
if you did something like this to rid mabinogi of all the spam bots I would start playing again!
 

Andy Chalk

One Flag, One Fleet, One Cat
Nov 12, 2002
45,698
0
0
How to solve the grind: Add a shallow minigame to each gathering activity. Not much but it helps!
 

Frostbyte

New member
Jan 1, 2012
82
0
0
Well, I play Runescape. I, however, prefer to avoid the skills as much as possible, with a few exceptions. I mainly do the quests, which are actually rather good, and play the minigames. On topic, Jagex has made an nice start, but need to do more.
 

Filiecs

New member
May 24, 2011
359
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0
HA, I remember the botting got so bad that Bot Hunting became an actual way to make profit. There were entire guides made for it.
 

Jimmybobjr

New member
Aug 3, 2010
365
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0
Damn, i was too soon for "INB4 RUNESCAPE HATERS"

I played runescape for 3 years, some of the best gaming of my life. I quit when the bots simply demolished the economy, some time after The implemetation of the Grand Exchange. I had since learnt of the Bot Nuke, but have moved on.

I honestly loved runescape, still do, and love JaGeX. Its good to see them finaly get on the winning path.
 

Erttheking

Member
Legacy
Apr 23, 2020
10,844
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Country
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Runescape? Damn, it's been awhile, I gave up because of the grinding (before anyone says anything for me this is less of a problem for Runescape and more of an inherent problem for MMOs in general, in reality it's the monthly fee that killed it for me. If it was free I would still be all over this game) but...I still have fond memories of that game. Falador, Lumbridge, Varrok, the crystal elven city, defeating Iban, uncovering the ancient Magiks, fighting the spirits of the Barrow brothers, the supreme commander, DEAR GOD the supreme commander. "sigh" good times

Anyways, nice job on slamming those hackers.
 

Tiger Sora

New member
Aug 23, 2008
2,220
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I remember when I played this game. My 1st MMO. How excited I was. How fun killing your 1st goblin is. I got up to 70 something with one of my guys, got hacked, and quit.

Surprised people can still play this game, the game formula is so outdated I couldn't stand to go back.

But theres worse MMO's out there people still play, so let them be happy with what they do.

Wonder how many bots are going to be scorched from the earth by this. Though the economy I'm sure will be forever broken.
 

OldNewNewOld

New member
Mar 2, 2011
1,494
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I'm not really sure what to think about bots.

Here is my situation.
When I was playing a MMORPG, I used a bot.
But here is the thing, I never played the MMORPG. I always played it as an RPG. I didn't interact with other players. I never did PvP, nor did I sell/buy items from the auction house. I liked the story in the game I played, but in order for the story to progress, there was lots of farming/grinding required. I didn't have that time, but I wanted to know the story.

On the other hand, I know that the majority of bot users will have some kind of interaction with other player who don't use bots. That will give them some kind of unfair advantage. Mostly in money, which reflects in gear. And that's why I don't like bots.

Bots conflict with the MMO part of the game...
I don't know. If only people could just be honest. Nothing more, nothing less. Just honest. Then you could just allow those who don't intend to interact with other player to use bots, but those who will interact can't use them...
Or they could just open another server which would be the story server. Less grinding required, some better balance for solo action... then I would be completely against bots.
 

Elvaril

New member
Dec 31, 2010
124
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0
I am so glad that Jagex won this. After all they have been doing this past year, they definitely deserve it. I have been playing Runescape for over seven years now and I have no plans to stop. I met my irl best friend because we sat next to each other in history and the first thing he said to me was "do you play any online games?" It turned out that we both played Runescape and we still love to hop in the game and go run through the latest quest with each other, which leads me to another reason I still play Runescape.

The quests. Jagex has some absolutely amazing quest writers. The Dorgeshuun quest line was an absolutely amazing series that had best story of any game quest I have ever played through.

I played World of Warcraft for about a total of three months. I hit 80 (this was during WotLK) within a month and then had nothing to do except grind instances. It was dull and boring. There was really nothing to do in the world and so I quit. As I said earlier, I have been playing Runescape for seven years. There is always something new to see and new people to meet. I will always rank Runescape as one of my top games just due to how much fun I have exploring and adventuring. Sure there is a lot of grind, but there is always stuff you can do and people you can meet.

I thank Jagex for creating a fantastic game world in which to explore and adventure. And I also thank them for removing the bots. They really did have a huge negative effect on the game, not just on the economy but also on the feel of the world. It was depressing running by people and knowing that probably not one of those people chopping willows in Draynor or hunting chinchompas in the Feldip Hills was actually another human and adventurer like yourself. The realization that followed the bot nuke that everyone I ran by was actually another human dashing about to save Varrock from the massive zombie invasion or mining to make the money for that next piece of armor was surprisingly uplifting. I had not realized the negative morale effect that bots had on the game until they were gone.
 

Necrofudge

New member
May 17, 2009
1,242
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I realize this was all good and necessary and stuff, but damn, they really degraded the people in the company. The public apology, the banning from any Jagex game ...

and having to give up and destroy all their source code and domains... Might as well ask em to just undress in the court room with that last demand.
 

Twilight_guy

Sight, Sound, and Mind
Nov 24, 2008
7,131
0
0
I'm sorry Escapist, I really want to care about his story, really. Unfortunately the phrase "knuckle sandwich of litigation" has me me imagine the classic statue of of blind-folded justice delivering a Shoryuken to the face of the unsuspecting company and I am unable to stop laughing.

It's interesting to hear the latest politics of bots and banned activates. There's quiet a bit of argument that goes on over this despite it looking like a simple issue.
 

Blatherscythe

New member
Oct 14, 2009
2,217
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Kopikatsu said:
Andy Chalk said:
Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.
Ouch. Still, I do hope this sets some kind of precedent. People who use bots/trainers are terrible people and should feel terrible. (Yes, Escapees. I made a blanket statement. COME AT ME, BRO!)
Oh boy, trust me, anyone who plays this game is fully aware of the scumbags that are gold-farmers and bot users. You can't go to a lucretive mine, tree or monster without coming across a bot. I think I speak as a member of the Runescape community when I say that it's about god-damn time and that these bastards are getting off easy for helping kill this game.
 

michael87cn

New member
Jan 12, 2011
922
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CM156 said:
gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
Hey, they're only doing the work that Americans players don't want to do.

OT: Don't play runescape, but I found this to make me happy.
Your nationalism disgusts me. When will people learn to not discriminate people by groups and categories.

OT: Good, bots are bad. They've ruined many a good game despite what some silly posters claim, "if the game was good, no one would bot". hah. boot up diablo 2 and try to play without having 10 bots join your game every 5 seconds. And thats one of the best action rpgs ever made.
 

CM156_v1legacy

Revelation 9:6
Mar 23, 2011
3,971
0
0
michael87cn said:
CM156 said:
gigastar said:
keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
According to Jagex, almost all bot users were gold farmers and thier bots were paid for with stolen credit cards, meaning that they ended up having to pay that back.

It may sound like its not much, but 2 months ago over 60% of the active playerbase was banned for bot-related offences.

Plus Runescape has a player-driven economy, so with bots doing all the tedious labor almost no one could make a decent earning with gathering raw materials.
Hey, they're only doing the work that Americans players don't want to do.

OT: Don't play runescape, but I found this to make me happy.
Your nationalism disgusts me. When will people learn to not discriminate people by groups and categories.

OT: Good, bots are bad. They've ruined many a good game despite what some silly posters claim, "if the game was good, no one would bot". hah. boot up diablo 2 and try to play without having 10 bots join your game every 5 seconds. And thats one of the best action rpgs ever made.
Uhhhhh, I was kidding and satirizing that response to immigration. I hold no such nationalistic thoughts.

Then again, you may be kidding with me too. I can't tell.
 

Kakashi on crack

New member
Aug 5, 2009
983
0
0
Wait runescape is still around?

Feel bad for the people who bought the program, their fucked.

And I'd also like to state that the bot company isn't sorry, they're just sorry they got caught.
 

Siege_TF

New member
May 9, 2010
582
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FFXI suffered massive inflation four years ago (roughly, might have been five) caused by RMTs, which caused a mass exodus of noobs that couldn't cope. When the Special Task Force was implimented to get rid of the RMTs people came back.

You can't argue 'but bots make the game better' when the people who run the game suffer genuine, quantifiable damage from those bots.
 

Trippy Turtle

New member
May 10, 2010
2,117
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0
I remember when I used to make the default looking character and try to make myself look like a bot.
I wonder if PVP is still good with all the new updates.
 

SL33TBL1ND

New member
Nov 9, 2008
6,467
0
0
I don't get it, how does affect other players at all? Or even Jagex, for that matter.
 

weirdee

Swamp Weather Balloon Gas
Apr 11, 2011
2,634
0
0
Trippy Turtle said:
I remember when I used to make the default looking character and try to make myself look like a bot.
I wonder if PVP is still good with all the new updates.
After the shakedown, people trolled by dressing as bots and imitating them. It was good for a laugh.

PvP is probably way different than you remember, though.
 

JoshuaMadoc

New member
Sep 3, 2008
165
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0
Necrofudge said:
I realize this was all good and necessary and stuff, but damn, they really degraded the people in the company. The public apology, the banning from any Jagex game ...

and having to give up and destroy all their source code and domains... Might as well ask em to just undress in the court room with that last demand.
Don't tell me you wouldn't do the same when you're the victim of relentless heckling and product stealing for almost a decade from a bunch of recurring thugs in Tommy Hilfigers who like to piss on your dog as well?
 

tthor

New member
Apr 9, 2008
2,931
0
0
keiskay said:
Kopikatsu said:
Andy Chalk said:
Along with having to fork over an unspecified but inevitably hefty amount of money, Impulse is also forbidden from providing information on how to hack Runescape, its employees are permanently banned from any and all Jagex games and it must transfer ownership of its websites to Jagex and destroy all bot code. It's even legally barred from commenting on the case, although it did issue an apology to Jagex and acknowledge that it was in the wrong.
Ouch. Still, I do hope this sets some kind of precedent. People who use bots/trainers are terrible people and should feel terrible. (Yes, Escapees. I made a blanket statement. COME AT ME, BRO!)
rune scape is a terrible game that should be renamed to grindscape. considering how long it takes to get one skill to 99 let alone 5 or 6. wanna make money go fish farming for 20 hours and rake in the money. wanna get the best armor? well go fish farm or enemy farm till you get enough supplies or money to buy or make the damn thing.

if runescape wasn't so tedious and boring to level up skills there wouldnt be much bot use. and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
o_O thats kinda the point, the game DOESN'T expect you to be maxing out your skills.. if you choose to spend days on end just to do so, be my guest I guess..

tho i won't lie the game did have a lot of damn grinding
 

Frostbyte

New member
Jan 1, 2012
82
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0
SL33TBL1ND said:
I don't get it, how does affect other players at all? Or even Jagex, for that matter.
Alright. Let's say you play a mmorpg called "Smorld of Smorecraft". To make money, you mine gold at the mines, then you sell the gold at the marketplace. Then one day, you see a player called IIiIllIIi1llI next to you. He, like millions of other bots, are mining gold with an inhuman efficiency. Hundreds of thousand bots, like this, at all the mines, and all the trees, and all the monsters. Then they sell their gold, and logs, and drops at the market place, driving the prices down, making it harder to make money. Except that, when you are at the marketplace, you see hundreds of "people" spamming the chatbox with messages telling you to "Buy gold at www.smorecraftgold.com!", or "Join the Smokin Mills club to make money!". Never stopping. Never faltering. Lines of code masquerading as humans. Never ceasing hordes of bots, overcoming all moderator attempts to stop them. They cost thousands of players coins, experience, and they cost Jagex, and other gaming companies hundreds of thousands of dollars in quit players.

And that, my friends, is why bots are bad.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
8,407
0
0
the iBot made one large flaw, and that is rebuildign runescape client in the bot. if it wasnt for that - they would have gotten of "not doing anything illegal".

It's even legally barred from commenting on the case
infringement on freedom of speech much? fascism anyone?

now as far as the game itself, it has outlived its time. there are many better free mmorpgs out there now, and with the changes in runescape i wonder why any people still play it anymore. then again i always knew there were stupid people around, and ofc there are those who live out of leveling up and selling runescape accounts.
 

MorphingDragon

New member
Apr 17, 2009
566
0
0
Jagex, why don't you fix the legions of automated gold sellers before attacking iBot.

Also, better games exist.
 

Azarhac

New member
Oct 30, 2010
38
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0
People whining that Runescape is Grindscape are just pathetic seriously, who the hell cares? People have quit the game for that reason but even I was heavily involved in the game for freaking 7 years and I don't recket anything, I had the best "interwebs" friends and conversations on Runescape and farming and grinding isn't anything too horrible if you are chatting with 3-5 friends at the same time.

The game is fucking fabulous with the best quests, weekly updates and frequent next skills and mini-games and so much random crap to do it can easily have a play-time of 20 000 hours with no trouble, sure it's not a game my now uber graphic desiring mind could handle but it is still a great game if you socialize.

I don't see people bashing on other classic MMO's like Ragnarok / Ultima or DAO so shut up if you don't give a damn.

Edit: Yeah I am heavily biased towards the game surely but it only has 2 real "flaws" which are very outdated graphics and heavy amounts of grinding, everything else is freaking gold and you can't ever prove otherwise.

More Edit: Oh yeah and RS still has the BEST npc-talking system ever created, which is why all other MMOS have disappointed me in that section... fucking rolls of mindless text, so stupid.
 

SL33TBL1ND

New member
Nov 9, 2008
6,467
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Frostbyte said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
I don't get it, how does affect other players at all? Or even Jagex, for that matter.
Alright. Let's say you play a mmorpg called "Smorld of Smorecraft". To make money, you mine gold at the mines, then you sell the gold at the marketplace. Then one day, you see a player called IIiIllIIi1llI next to you. He, like millions of other bots, are mining gold with an inhuman efficiency. Hundreds of thousand bots, like this, at all the mines, and all the trees, and all the monsters. Then they sell their gold, and logs, and drops at the market place, driving the prices down, making it harder to make money. Except that, when you are at the marketplace, you see hundreds of "people" spamming the chatbox with messages telling you to "Buy gold at www.smorecraftgold.com!", or "Join the Smokin Mills club to make money!". Never stopping. Never faltering. Lines of code masquerading as humans. Never ceasing hordes of bots, overcoming all moderator attempts to stop them. They cost thousands of players coins, experience, and they cost Jagex, and other gaming companies hundreds of thousands of dollars in quit players.

And that, my friends, is why bots are bad.
But if that brings the price of everything down, the smart thing to do would be to buy it all up and re-sell. And I doubt it would cost most MMO's a cent. The subscription fees from all the bots would probably outweigh the money lost. Jegex' case I get, because the game is free. But in most circumstances, I don't see it.
 

MASTACHIEFPWN

Will fight you and lose
Mar 27, 2010
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Mother of God...
People still care that much about this game?
Runescape really has killed-over the past couple of years, and they removed a crap load of stuff that made it cool.

But jesus christ, this brings back memories of the bald guy in the green shirt with a goutee always chopping down the yew trees.
 

gigastar

Insert one-liner here.
Sep 13, 2010
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SL33TBL1ND said:
I don't get it, how does affect other players at all? Or even Jagex, for that matter.
1) The player economy.
Runescape has always had a player-run economy. Prices both before and after the Grand Exchange update were largely influenced by how rare they were, how useful they were and how hard said item was to get.

But after the Grand Exchange update, it suddenly became easy to trade any item in high quantities, meaning it just became easier for the gold farmers to off thier goods.

After a couple of months of this the market was flooded with more raw materials than the legitimate players could use. This drove prices right down on those raw materials, but it made gathering those raw materials for a profit a basic waste of time.

2) Jagex's financial issues.
First of all i should say that to my knowledge Jagex was, and certainly [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/115418-Runescape-Bot-Maker-Loses-Big-In-Lawsuit] is not in any sort of financial diffculty.

Ill keep it simple here. It came to light two months ago that over 60% of the active P2P playerbase were bot accounts, and most of those bots were paid for with stolen credit cards.
 

SL33TBL1ND

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gigastar said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
I don't get it, how does affect other players at all? Or even Jagex, for that matter.
Ill keep it simple here. It came to light two months ago that over 60% of the active P2P playerbase were bot accounts, and most of those bots were paid for with stolen credit cards.
That was basically the response I was looking for, that makes sense.
 

Calcium

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Frostbyte said:
SL33TBL1ND said:
I don't get it, how does affect other players at all? Or even Jagex, for that matter.
Alright. Let's say you play a mmorpg called "Smorld of Smorecraft". To make money, you mine gold at the mines, then you sell the gold at the marketplace. Then one day, you see a player called IIiIllIIi1llI next to you. He, like millions of other bots, are mining gold with an inhuman efficiency. Hundreds of thousand bots, like this, at all the mines, and all the trees, and all the monsters. Then they sell their gold, and logs, and drops at the market place, driving the prices down, making it harder to make money. Except that, when you are at the marketplace, you see hundreds of "people" spamming the chatbox with messages telling you to "Buy gold at www.smorecraftgold.com!", or "Join the Smokin Mills club to make money!". Never stopping. Never faltering. Lines of code masquerading as humans. Never ceasing hordes of bots, overcoming all moderator attempts to stop them. They cost thousands of players coins, experience, and they cost Jagex, and other gaming companies hundreds of thousands of dollars in quit players.

And that, my friends, is why bots are bad.
Annnd I'd add that bots take up room on servers which players could be using. I've heard that something like 60% of players were bots or something that got banned in the "bot nuke". That's a lot of money wasted by Jagex running extra servers so legitimate players can actually connect.
 

Gabriel O'Brien

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Baradiel said:
And.... unleash the hate for Runescape!!

Seriously, I have some good memories of that game. I loved it, and still do. I don't play it much anymore, but I started playing it about 7 or 8 years ago. It got too tedious to level up (most of my skills were in the 80s or 90s) so I eventually stopped playing regularly. I still pop on for a bit. I think I've still got membership running on my card.
might want to cancel that stuff... that money adds up!
 

JoshuaMadoc

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I have nothing to worry about, because Australia has the benefit of having the prepaid system where the minimum is AUD$15 for 35 days. No need for crummy PayByPhone shenanigans, just walk to a post office and buy the damn thing at my own whim. Not only that, but the cards are also valid after purchase for a year. Pretty brilliant, at least for me.
 

Atmos Duality

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Farther than stars said:
Well, you made some interesting points there. But what I don't get is why you seem to hate this game with such a passion.
I hate grind, not Runescape.

I get your point that grinding is a bad thing; I agree, but I also get the point Sovvolf is making that if you don't like it, you don't have to play it.
You're right. I don't have to play it.
But I don't want grind creeping into more games. It's a useless element of gaming that rewards the wrong kind of behavior for both gamers and developers alike.

However, it's also a popular mechanic for service-centric games because it takes an experience and pads it out, which translates directly into more revenue.

F2P games sell this in the form of "convenience", oppressing the players with grind, but offering a way out for a price.
Subscription games give you everything, but keep you playing for longer so that you pay more weekly/monthly subscriptions.

Fortunately, for the time being most games are still in the realm of products, not services.
But if the industry changes its payment model to shift more games to services (some are already starting to transition to that: Diablo 3 will only be online, and features strong incentives for players to grind, though fortunately it's still in transition so there's no subscription fees or F2P bullshit...yet.)

After all, speaking from my own perspective there are a lot of things that I don't like and I have my opinions about those, but that doesn't mean that I have a problem with people playing certain games that I personally don't enjoy.
Do I think Runscape's a bad game? Yes, I would say that the grinding is dispicable. But that doesn't mean that I think it shouldn't have the right to exist, if not as a vent for the developers' creative minds, then for all the people who do enjoy it.
But that's the thing: Developers could express themselves just the same without adding busywork, so why add it at all? It adds nothing!

A sense of progression? I think examples will illustrate my point better.

Super Meat Boy, didn't feel the need to introduce grind into its gameplay in order to provide you with a sense of progression.

Even among RPGs, it isn't necessary.
Nethack doesn't require you to grind if you plan your approach even just a little.

Suikoden 2 used a function that rapidly catches your team up to the enemy group's level (after 5-8 encounters, which you're easily going to get just running through as fast as you can).
And you couldn't "overlevel" very easily either. Grinding would get you MAYBE 4 levels above a region's enemies, but no more. This means that boss fights were actually challenging, and the outcome of each fight depended on your party composition, and how you developed their skills and inventory.

The challenge came from planning and execution. Not just having bigger numbers than the other guy. In a simulation, your abilities to plan and execute are the only accurate representations of your actual gaming "strength"; anyone can grind.

Personally: I find a victory that comes solely from the result of grind is hollow and anti-climatic.

But if you're still insistent that progress on its own is justification, I'll just show you this:
http://progressquest.com/

That is "progress" as a gameplay concept. Form your own opinion.

Sovvolf said:
Actually buying a level 60 character is kind of like some arsehole walking into a Martial Arts dojo with a paid for Black Belt. Real life is a grind specially training, I put hours of effort into getting mine (actually only a yellow belt in the martial arts I do that include belts but that's beside the point) then some guy, the same stedhead mentioned above comes into the gym with his freshly purchased one from a local sports store, would I be jealous? course not, I'd be outraged though. Course the fellow would got the same as these bots and be quickly kicked out of the gym but still... I hope you get my point.
Why would you be outraged or jealous? You have the skills, he doesn't. If you went up against him, you're going to whoop his ass.
Pardon my presumption, but you practice to acquire the skills, not the belt. The belt is just a symbol, not skill itself.

The same cannot be said of the dude who walks in with his new level 60 character and twinked gear. For nearly every MMO I've played, the numbers matter far more than the skills unless the numbers are evenly matched; and that's my point.

When you make time the primary metric of power, you don't end up with even numbers (remember: time spent playing varies between players), and so the skill matters less and less.

The "grind" you talk about in real life (training and conditioning) has genuine benefits besides being able to kick ass. What benefit do you get from grinding in an MMO?
Nothing. It doesn't improve your mind.
"How about in-game skills?"
Fair enough, I'll give you that practice makes perfect.

But if you are bored with the grind, then chances are IT'S NOT A CHALLENGE, YOU ALREADY HAVE THE NECESSARY SKILL. It's just that the game refuses to acknowledge this until you've wasted an arbitrarily large amount of time doing it over and over again.

The problem lies in thus: in a grind-scenario, the PLAYER'S SKILL doesn't increase at the same rate as the CHARACTER'S SKILL (that is, their numbers).

I never had to seriously think about what skills/spells I was going to use when I tried a Priest on the WoW Trial, or my Knight on Ragnarok Online etc unless it was an exceptional circumstance (usually bosses and mini-bosses, or a raid/instance with a neat gimmick, which comprises a TINY FRACTION of the time I spend playing).

Instead, it's spent spending a short time figuring out my approach, and then following that same bloody approach for EVERY encounter...well past the point I had mastered it.
But the further I progressed in every game noted above, I noticed something: my approach and execution mattered less and less as time went on, to the point where it was only the numbers on my character sheet that mattered.
Either I had the numbers to win/survive, or I didn't. Nothing else mattered unless it was a very even matchup, which very rarely occurred.

If I may expand upon your analogy: Grind would be like if you have the skills and conditioning of a Black Belt, but even when you pass the test, you aren't given your Black Belt unless you do it 5 more times.

Why? "Just because".
That's hardly fair, isn't it?

Grind is taking an accomplishment you've already achieved, and stretches it out for no other reason than to waste time. You don't benefit from the added practice, and it's rather boring.
I'm not sure how one can have fun while they're bored, but if you can figure it out, by all means tell me.
 

Atmos Duality

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Hero in a half shell said:
Literally your only argument here is that it doesn't matter that botting ruins the in-game economy because it is based on grinding. If that is an issue for you then again I will say the solution is to not play the game. There are people who enjoy the grind, there are people who don't, if you are in the latter group then play a different game.
Sorry, but I'll need more than the "it's subjective" argument. It's hand-waving.
While I agree with "The game is not for you" it in no way addresses my point.

Also, I don't buy into the "people enjoy grinding" argument one bit.
From my personal experience, they ***** about it. Constantly. And with good reason.

Why do people put up with it? Skinner-Psychology. Grind preys upon human behavior that was necessary for survival in real life, but doesn't apply to a simulation.

This has research to back it up, and has actually been shown on this site before.
If you need elaboration, I'll be happy to provide it (in two hours, after class).

Believe me, the game is a million times better now that the bots are gone, and for anyone that relied on bots to play the game, well, Runescape is better off without them. Simply put, the game was not meant for them.
Well, good for them I guess. A game of economics can be great fun (Civilization and most 4X games do this) but I don't agree with which the way MMOs handle it.
 

C F

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Man, I loved Runescape. I tended to bump into the worse parts of the player-base more often than not, but I know that there are a lot of community-oriented people in there, too. I never played to get all those skills to 99, and I think people who do failed to grasp the spirit of the thing. Besides, I knew I wouldn't have the time. So I did minigames, I quested, I grinded, I dabbled in just about everything it had to offer without focusing too much on any given area. Judging by the amount of time I spent playing, I'd say it's filled its MMO addiction quota. We've had a falling out over the years; it grew away from the game I fell in love with back in 2006. For me, the process started with the removal of Tutorial Island, and ended with Dungeoneering. Ah, but I can reminisce.

I'm not even going to bother trying to justify/condemn botting. They're breaking the Terms of Service. It's that simple. Maybe the end result shown here seems too extreme, but I see this as a great comeuppance for the multitude of bots I've seen over the years. Plus, Jagex is a name I've come to trust through my play experiences, so I'm perfectly fine with how this issue turned out for them. They've got a heck of a staff at HQ, let me tell you.

Hmm, come to think of it, typing this makes me want to start playing again sometime...
 

Sovvolf

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Atmos Duality said:
Why would you be outraged or jealous? You have the skills, he doesn't. If you went up against him, you're going to whoop his ass.
Pardon my presumption, but you practice to acquire the skills, not the belt. The belt is just a symbol, not skill itself.
I wouldn't be jealous, as you said, I could whoop his arse. However the outrage comes in that he's wearing something that symbolizes something that he hasn't achieved yet flaunting it as if he had. Its the same kind of outrage you'll hear from armed forces vets where someone wears a naval suite and starts claiming he's in the service.

You've put blood sweat and tears into getting your character that high and some arsehole just steps in with a character he bought acting like he's earned it. It goes against the point of the game, again its like just using the level skip cheating and claiming that you've beat the game.


The rest of your post just shows that you don't seem to get how it works or why people enjoy MMO's or RPG's in general. Which may mean you should stay away from them, they're clearly not your thing. The whole boring grindy stuff your talking about... They tend to like that, they tend to enjoy sitting there and getting their characters to an higher level. That's pretty much the point of the game.

Though your entire arguement for why botting isn't bad seems to be "I don't like MMO's" or "I don't like grind" where to put it simple and to do it without writing 8 paragraphs worth of stuff... It goes against the point of the game. If the point of the game (which you don't like but lets take that away for a sec) is to get your character to a high level with your friends and get all the nice gear, what is the point in getting some bot to do it? You've accomplished nothing. Again, its like buying a memory card with all the saved data of completed game and stating "I won".

Atmos Duality said:
Grind is taking an accomplishment you've already achieved, and stretches it out for no other reason than to waste time. You don't benefit from the added practice, and it's rather boring.
I'm not sure how one can have fun while they're bored, but if you can figure it out, by all means tell me.
Yes, waste your time, like a game is supposed to... I don't need to benefit from the added practice, I don't need some high time real life reward for it all. It a game, I play them to have fun, you find grinding boring, apparently others do too, I don't. I find it fun and like leveling up and feeling the benefits of my character getting stronger as I do it.

I can't tell you how you'd find it fun because if it isn't something you enjoy then you won't enjoy it. From the looks of things, your argument seems to be "if I don't find it fun, then others can't either". Trying to explain it to you would be akin to trying to explain to someone who doesn't like online shooters why COD is fun.

The arguement really is turning more into a why I don't like MMO's or Grinding than it does the actually arguement for why bots are bad. Though, me'h maybe I'm wrong, won't be the first time and won't be the last.
 

jFr[e]ak93

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keiskay said:
and how do bots hurt the company anyways? you still gotta be a member if you want to access all the skills/weapons/armor/world anyways.
It can become a huge pain if someone is Botting, gets supper good at fighting, then starts killing people off in the wild.
It runs the experience down for those that play it legitimately.
 

veloper

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Here's an idea: have a new MMO with the bot already included in the package.

This will allow players with less free time to keep up with friends who have too much free time and keep raiding together.

Secondary advantages of this scheme:
2 the economy is predictable again and can now be steered more easily from the developer's side.
3 progress through the game will be as slow or as fat as the designer configures the grind and it will slow down all players equally, even the kids who can play every day. Payment is still monthly, so this should be good for business too.

There's ofcourse also a downside, which is that the compulsive skinner's box mechanism that makes people keep playing MMOs, may suffer.
The game will have to rely on fun gameplay and interesting dungeon design so people will want to check in from time to time, which can turn this downside into an upside again.
 

Atmos Duality

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Sovvolf said:
I wouldn't be jealous, as you said, I could whoop his arse. However the outrage comes in that he's wearing something that symbolizes something that he hasn't achieved yet flaunting it as if he had.
A high level is a badge of honor?
I thought the point of playing the game was to play the game, not to compare yourself to others. Unless you're in competition with that person (which I've already described in painful detail), I don't get why anyone would care.

You've put blood sweat and tears into getting your character that high and some arsehole just steps in with a character he bought acting like he's earned it. It goes against the point of the game, again its like just using the level skip cheating and claiming that you've beat the game.
So they skipped all the low-level content.
If you were playing for the experience of playing, then it's their loss, not yours.
This is true if they are higher level, or lower level than you.

Therefore, this logic is true only when you're comparing yourself to others, which in the absence of competition is nonsensical.

The rest of your post just shows that you don't seem to get how it works or why people enjoy MMO's or RPG's in general. Which may mean you should stay away from them, they're clearly not your thing. The whole boring grindy stuff your talking about... They tend to like that, they tend to enjoy sitting there and getting their characters to an higher level. That's pretty much the point of the game.
Except I do understand how they work.
I analyze them; I've bloody played them (more than a few).

You say that they enjoy that...I am analyzing WHY. I can think of a number of reasons one might enjoy an MMO in spite of the grind:
1) Social Factor/Multiplayer (mandatory teamwork makes you feel like you can contribute to something bigger. You get your friends involved to overcome a challenge you might not be able to alone)
2) World-scale/Setting (I have a friend who played WoW as a sort of Sight-seeing Tourist, rather than the usual Quest for the Bigger Numbers)
3) Just plain old good core gameplay either in concept or in practice. (Ignoring the coefficient of grind, which I explain just below)

If the point of the game (which you don't like but lets take that away for a sec) is to get your character to a high level....what is the point in getting some bot to do it? You've accomplished nothing. Again, its like buying a memory card with all the saved data of completed game and stating "I won".
The problem here lies in that you don't "win" MMOs, because there is no point of closure.
There's no special prize for attaining a high level.
All it states is that you performed some incredibly simple tasks a great number of times.

(And I can say simple, because MOST MMOs are very simple to play in practice; if they weren't, one wouldn't be able to "bot" in the first place. If the game was based more on complex interactions, aka, what I keep calling "execution" then there would be far fewer bots.)

Hypothetically: If you were to remove all the mundane repetition, converted each challenge down to a "One and done" situation, and focud exclusively on what the game actually had to offer you would find that nearly ALL of these MMOs have either incredibly weak/easy gameplay or incredibly short durations.

Only by padding them out and taking full advantage of Skinner-Box psychology do MMOs get away with this.

So lets goes back to the argument of "Grind is the point of the game".
(Remember: In the absence of envy, personal comparisons are nonsensical, and we've already eliminated fair competition. So, we're looking solely at the appeal of the gameplay here.)

Here's the kicker; if grind is the point of the game, why not just pick up a different game and replay that one over and over again? Hell, pick something with multiplayer and get your friends on board.

WHY NOT? YOU'RE DOING THE SAME THING.
The only thing missing is a little counter that keeps track of the number of times you've done it, and it telling you to keep doing it.

You're taking established gameplay that you've probably mastered (or are at least competent at), and repeating it an arbitrary number of times. That's grind.
In fact, that's a very precise practical definition of grind:
"Repetition of an action for an arbitrary number of times."

The "level up" screen? It's ultimately just a counter for how long you've been grinding; it's just numbers, and numbers can be changed. It in itself is not an accomplishment because:
1) There are always bigger numbers.
2) Most encounters can be handled by the same exact strategy/approach. "Flowchart Gameplay". The only thing that changes, THE ONLY THING, is the scaling on the numbers. Remove the scaling, and you have the same, simple task as before.

Therefore, attaching your ego to those numbers is nonsensical when the task to acquire those numbers is so easy to perform individually.

This is why "Grind is the point of the game" is false, because it can't be the point of the game; it's a coefficient of something else and cannot exist on its own. It needs legitimate gameplay to actually exist, and it cheapens said gameplay experience.

But don't take my word for it, this is an example of what a game would be if it were literally nothing but grind:
http://progressquest.com/play/

If your only reward for doing a task is the privilege of doing that task again, then that task is not a game. It's just an addiction.

Yes, waste your time, like a game is supposed to...
This is an argument I've seen before, and it isn't true at all.
If a game is meant to waste your time, then why play it?

This argument creates a contradiction in the very premise of doing...well anything.
Sometimes we have to do things we don't want to and would do anything else to get away from them. That might the case here, it might not, but WE ALWAYS HAVE A REASON, even if we do not consciously understand (or want to admit) what that reason is.

"Wasting time for the sake of wasting time" is circular logic. It's a fallacy.
Ergo, it's not true.

People do not necessarily have a conscious understanding of why they do things (we involuntarily act on things all the time), but there is always a reason.

I don't need to benefit from the added practice, I don't need some high time real life reward for it all. It a game, I play them to have fun, you find grinding boring, apparently others do too, I don't. I find it fun and like leveling up and feeling the benefits of my character getting stronger as I do it.
Skinner-Box Logic explains all of that. There is science behind this.

A good "Layman's Article" on the topic, and how it pertains to gaming.

http://www.cracked.com/article_18461_5-creepy-ways-video-games-are-trying-to-get-you-addicted.html

It's a trait of human behavior we've retained since the days of hunter-gatherers.
I won't pretend to understand or know you, but if I had to take an educated guess, I'd wager that it's not the process of grinding that you enjoy; it's only the leveling up reward.

I can't tell you how you'd find it fun because if it isn't something you enjoy then you won't enjoy it. From the looks of things, your argument seems to be "if I don't find it fun, then others can't either". Trying to explain it to you would be akin to trying to explain to someone who doesn't like online shooters why COD is fun.
*sigh* it's the "It's Subjective" argument again.
Wave the hand, twirl the wand, and you too can make anything you don't want to discuss/analyze disappear.

Very well then.
If this is really going nowhere, then I won't bother you with the subject again after this.
 

JMeganSnow

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Ilikemilkshake said:
JMeganSnow said:
Ilikemilkshake said:
As a former Runescape player, bots harm the community and they wreck the ingame economy.
Yes the bots still pay membership, but thousands of legitimate players get fed up and stop playing because whats the point when half the people on a server are botting.
If it's possible to actually wreck the ingame economy using an automatic system, that's a *design flaw*, and the owners should not be entitled to harass people who take advantage of it. They're entitled to fix their design flaw is what they're entitled to do. And if they're too lazy to do it, oh well. Their players will leave, there will no longer be an incentive to bot, and the flawed, badly-designed game will die the death it deserves.

Now, me, I play an MMO where nobody bots, because you CAN'T--it takes an actual involved intelligence to get any of the benefits in the game. Heck, the devs accidentally broke the economy about a year ago by putting in a stupidly easy way to farm tons and tons of platinum. They then fixed it and never did anything to anybody who took advantage of it. Prices went up for a month or so. Now they're considerably LOWER than they were before since the devs also introduced several new, fun, and cool things that eat up tons of cash and resources.
You make a fair point. I still wouldnt agree that that makes it acceptable for players to exploit this though and use bots when its both against the rules and the spirit of the game and community.
Yeah, and maybe you can order the tide to roll back, too. Systems that attempt to circumvent human nature will always fail, and one primary component of human nature is the desire, no drive, to do/get more with less. People always seek to improve and, in fact, gain great happiness by doing so. This drive for improvement is, in fact, exploited BY MMO's to build and maintain a userbase.

If the company producing the game leaves an opening for people to exploit to improve their characters more quickly/easily, of course people are going to use it. Making some arbitrary rule that says "don't do that" isn't going to change a thing. You know what this lawsuit is going to change? It's just going to raise the bar for botting entry a tad. If that. Those inclined to bot will no longer have an easy source for material, so the activity will be restricted only to those who can write their own bots. They'll be more clandestine about it, as well. That's all that will change. The improvement, if any, will be marginal.

Instead of harassing the iBot people, the Runescape developers ought to be thanking them. The bot service probably hugely prolonged the sustainable existence of Runescape in the marketplace of newer, better-designed MMO's.

That's not to say that I encourage people to break the terms of service, necessarily. It's just that companies need to realize that some click-to-accept agreement isn't going to stop people from behaving like people. Heck, if they decide to start banning botters en masse, exactly how long is Runescape going to remain profitable?

This isn't a case of a poor developer being exploited by a nasty bunch of hackers. It's a case of poor design leading to a DEMAND for the hacks, which, of course, someone stepped in to supply. It might as well be the War on Drugs. No matter how many high school guidance counselors you have going around saying Marjuana is Bad, mm'kay, as long as there's a demand that big, someone will supply it. If you make supplying it criminal, the suppliers will be criminal. If there's enough demand, you wind up with organized crime.

Angry prohibition is not the answer.
 

Sovvolf

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Atmos Duality said:
Very well then.
If this is really going nowhere, then I won't bother you with the subject again after this.
How mature of you. You know I've tried not to get personal with this discussion and even tried to make clear that I wasn't meaning offence however, cause we disagree, I guess I'm not worthy of debating with you.

I could address you're points above but what is the point if I ain't worth the reply. I will add begrudgingly that you did make some rather good ones though that I didn't have much to rebuke with. Guess you've bested, you've put more research into it, given your profile information you analyse games far more often and thus probably more qualified. I know when I'm beat, its hard to swallow my pride and say that but its true, though it would have been a whole lot better if we'd left the discussion on better terms.

Though I still stand by my opinion that fun is subjective. That might be a giant handwave but I can't see any other way to describe fun. Nor do I think many should have to justify it.
 

Necrofudge

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May 17, 2009
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kitetsu said:
Necrofudge said:
I realize this was all good and necessary and stuff, but damn, they really degraded the people in the company. The public apology, the banning from any Jagex game ...

and having to give up and destroy all their source code and domains... Might as well ask em to just undress in the court room with that last demand.
Don't tell me you wouldn't do the same when you're the victim of relentless heckling and product stealing for almost a decade from a bunch of recurring thugs in Tommy Hilfigers who like to piss on your dog as well?
Yes, but the question is kind of weird since it has absolutely nothing to do with these people. These guys weren't "thugs who like to piss on your dog," and I have absolutely no idea where the hell you pulled that out from.

...Maybe some of their customers were (the people who actually used the bot), but that's beside the point.

This was a semi-legitimate business that made a less than legal product and was punished for it. The lawsuit made sense. However, I can still feel sorry for them having to give up all resources even remotely related to the bot. It wasn't enough that they were forced to stop, all their digital property was seized. That can be a *****. Plus banning their employees from all future Jagex games seemed like a strange add-on.
 

Atmos Duality

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Mar 3, 2010
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Sovvolf said:
How mature of you. You know I've tried not to get personal with this discussion and even tried to make clear that I wasn't meaning offence however, cause we disagree, I guess I'm not worthy of debating with you.
Not worthy? No, no. Far from it. My only requisite is civility, which you have shown.
I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant or condescending there.

Though I still stand by my opinion that fun is subjective. That might be a giant handwave but I can't see any other way to describe fun. Nor do I think many should have to justify it.
Well, I believe there is more to it than mere preference.
But the problem with leaving it as a purely-subjective argument, is that it becomes precisely that: Preference and nothing more.
 

Sovvolf

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Mar 23, 2009
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Atmos Duality said:
Sovvolf said:
How mature of you. You know I've tried not to get personal with this discussion and even tried to make clear that I wasn't meaning offence however, cause we disagree, I guess I'm not worthy of debating with you.
Not worthy? No, no. Far from it. My only requisite is civility, which you have shown.
I'm sorry if I came across as arrogant or condescending there.

Though I still stand by my opinion that fun is subjective. That might be a giant handwave but I can't see any other way to describe fun. Nor do I think many should have to justify it.
Well, I believe there is more to it than mere preference.
But the problem with leaving it as a purely-subjective argument, is that it becomes precisely that: Preference and nothing more.
Apologies on this end also, I took it the wrong way and was a little harsh. I tend to take stuff like that extremely personally and thus act far harsher that I would normally like. Though I guess I agree, leaving it merely to subjectivity may be a little bit of an over simplification.
 

guynumber1

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Dec 12, 2012
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I've been playing runescape for around 8 years and I've recently started botting. Not possible to have a life and work/study and play rs at the same time.

Most people who I know in game who are maxed (99 in every skill) have spent over 700 24-hour days on their accounts. That's the time it takes to get a Ph.D. They probably got kicked out of their house and somehow found internet in a homeless shelter or something, playing rs beside crackheads.

Grinding isn't the same in RS as it is in games like WoW. To get 99 in all combat skills it takes an EXPERIENCED player 2 years, playing 3-4 hours a day. Then there's all the quests and the other 80% of skills which take even longer to level than combat. Then finally there's bossing and all that fun stuff. I know people (myself included) who have killed the same boss for OVER A FUCKING YEAR and not gotten the drop we were trying to get (drop rate is 1/1500, or 0.067%).

Generally the drug dealer gets a worse punishment than a drug user. Something that makes you waste 17,000 hours of your life (it is said it takes 15,000 to truly master something!) with absolutely no reward (in fact, it is detrimental to your ability to focus and/or get laid) would be MUCH worse than many common illegal drugs.

Anyone who defends Jagex is defending a crack dealer. Jagex makes 100 million annually by eating at people's souls. Their job is to make the game more addictive, and now they have microtransactions. You can now buy levels, though for a ridiculous price (~$30,000 for all 99s), after Jagex stated that this sort of thing was against the spirit of the game, implying they would never participate in it (until they found out they could more than double their profit by selling useless shit).

Bots save lives, in every sense of the phrase.