Rush Limbaugh finally dead!

Seanchaidh

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Bad is determined by your perception.
Yes. And some people's perceptions are bad.

Because of morals and perception, if I died literally right now, someone would feel the world is a bit safer because of intrinsically who I am. Because I am a bad person in their minds.
I would also celebrate that someone's death.

Y'know, you can feel more than one way about somebody's death. Y'can feel glad that his direct negative influence on American politics/ culture has ended, and you can also feel sympathy for family members/ friends who might be grieving.
You can, but fuck anyone who loved such a monster. If they're grieving him, they're bad too.
 
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Baffle

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and you can also feel sympathy for family members/ friends who might be grieving.
Honestly, I can't. We aren't talking about a good person or even an average person who popped off the mortal coil. To be friends with someone so abhorrent, to enable them to believe it is fine to be as he was and still have friends makes them complicit in the awfulness in my mind.

Family is a little different because you don't choose your family, but even then, to have not cut that guy off like the vile shite he was ... man, they must've thought it not that bad.

Maybe it's a product of online distancing, but I can't bring myself to feel bad about being glad he's gone, nor to feel sympathy for those who stood by him while he did that shit. Like Thatcher, but more malicious.
 

Casual Shinji

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You can, but fuck anyone who loved such a monster. If they're grieving him, they're bad too.
No, they're not. Not necessarily.

Not everyone can have loved ones who AREN'T extremely bigoted, or didn't witness become extremely bigoted. Even if it became an unbearable situation and all contact is severed, someone can still grieve when that person dies. It's not the sort of thing you have control over. Even children of extremely abusive parents can still unwillingly feel grief over their death. Love is kinda a shitty thing like that.

So saying anyone who grieved over Rush Limbaugh's death is bad is a bit too harsh, unless of course they're claiming he was some swell guy who spread love across the world. Not that I know anything about his family members, maybe they're all as diseased in their opinions as he was, but it's equally possible some long lost brother/sister/daughter/son who completely rejected Rush Limbaugh can still feel a sense of grief over the passing of someone who they once called and loved as family.

As for the whole celebrating death regarding a person like this, I totally understand how it shouldn't be a thing we do, since it paints a rather bleak picture that the only way we can collective solve bigotry is for those who spread it to die. It's wonderful news that such an awful, toxic voice is now no longer around (though with how obsolete Rush Limbaugh has become in the last 10 years it's highly debateable whether he had much influence anymore), but having it be possible only through death doesn't make me feel particularly happy about it.
 

happyninja42

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As for the whole celebrating death regarding a person like this, I totally understand how it shouldn't be a thing we do, since it paints a rather bleak picture that the only way we can collective solve bigotry is for those who spread it to die.
Statistically speaking though, death IS the only real way to solve negative behavioral patterns on a species scale. Sure you can have a handful of people actually engage in self-reflection, and have humility and realize "wow, I've been a complete shitbag, I want to change my ways." The reality is though, that most of them never do that. They go to the fucking grave thinking they are right, and refusing to accept objective reality. Just look at the people who denied being infected with covid WHILE IT WAS KILLING THEM. THAT is the kind of mindset that doesn't change...until it's dead. So, frankly, we have to just put up with them, as their viewpoints are fading, generationally, as time goes on. It sucks to be living through it, because the various shitbags are running around with a free pass to do whatever they want, under the guys of national pride and geezus, and then cry foul if we call them on their shit. But the reality is that no amount of education OF the 70+ million idiots in the republican party is going to fix them. The best we can do is minimize the number of other shitbags they raise in their mindset (which is happening through cultural actions), and wait for them to fucking die. Because that is really what's going to work, on a scale that actually matters.
 
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Thaluikhain

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But there is the rub again: Bad People.

Bad is determined by your perception. Whatever moral stance you cling to at that time.
This has been brought up already in this thread, people aren't unaware of this, they are (as far as I can see) dismissing it as irrelevant.

Hypothetically, though, if Limbaugh didn't actually believe that gay people (et al) were evil, he just knew claiming they were would give him money, power and prestige, would that change anything?
 

Gordon_4

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This has been brought up already in this thread, people aren't unaware of this, they are (as far as I can see) dismissing it as irrelevant.

Hypothetically, though, if Limbaugh didn't actually believe that gay people (et al) were evil, he just knew claiming they were would give him money, power and prestige, would that change anything?
Well no because that would just make him a shameless profiteer of human misery without even the honest conviction of belief.
 

ObsidianJones

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This has been brought up already in this thread, people aren't unaware of this, they are (as far as I can see) dismissing it as irrelevant.

Hypothetically, though, if Limbaugh didn't actually believe that gay people (et al) were evil, he just knew claiming they were would give him money, power and prestige, would that change anything?
Gordon_4 hits on the head.

I can't suggest how to change someone's mind for 'the better'. Since we've formed language enough to have an opinion, people became devoted to use language to make people see things their way. I can't come up with any answers, nor would I want to. It isn't my place to.

But if someone is convinced in flat earth, or women are inferior, or gays are evil... I will share my viewpoint until I'm blue in the face, but that might not be enough present a viewpoint to make them re-evaluate. That person might just be a zealot and think they are doing 'the best thing'. That person is misguided. But misguided in the way they think they are trying to help humanity.

Which is something most of us want to do. Help Humanity. Just turns out that they would be wrong in the way they want to go about it in our estimation.

Rush, though, if he was gay or had gay friends or really liked the blacks or any one of these things... and then proceeded to try to get rich off of demonizing these groups? It's Abhorrent. It is obviously worse because he's stoking flames that he doesn't even have a dog to fight over because he really doesn't care. He would create an army to fight a war he doesn't believe in.

He's already despicable in my estimation. Even evil. Peddling this stuff without actual belief would rocket him below the lowest form of human trash that ever walked the earth. A place where I already believe he resided in.
 

Casual Shinji

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Statistically speaking though, death IS the only real way to solve negative behavioral patterns on a species scale. Sure you can have a handful of people actually engage in self-reflection, and have humility and realize "wow, I've been a complete shitbag, I want to change my ways." The reality is though, that most of them never do that. They go to the fucking grave thinking they are right, and refusing to accept objective reality. Just look at the people who denied being infected with covid WHILE IT WAS KILLING THEM. THAT is the kind of mindset that doesn't change...until it's dead. So, frankly, we have to just put up with them, as their viewpoints are fading, generationally, as time goes on. It sucks to be living through it, because the various shitbags are running around with a free pass to do whatever they want, under the guys of national pride and geezus, and then cry foul if we call them on their shit. But the reality is that no amount of education OF the 70+ million idiots in the republican party is going to fix them. The best we can do is minimize the number of other shitbags they raise in their mindset (which is happening through cultural actions), and wait for them to fucking die. Because that is really what's going to work, on a scale that actually matters.
Yeah, but these viewpoints aren't fading. Not in the sense that the people who uphold them die, collectively lowering it. You'd think by now sexism would be a thing that died along with the people who held those beliefs long ago, but it hasn't. You'd think after the worst case scenario that was the Holocaust, something people certainly right after its reveal labeled the most inhuman and vile acts humanity was ever thought capable of, that anti-semitism would be a thing that died along with nazi-Germany, but it hasn't. Even after that.

The passing of racists, sexists, homophobes, and transphobes hasn't and will not put an end to bigotry. This shit always finds a way to remain on its feet. You mention COVID and how people are reacting like idiots to it, but that's a mindset that certainly in my country people thought was something we as a species had grown beyond. But I have someone in my family that's buying in the this whole conspiracy nonsense, and they went to college and not but a few years back made fun of people who believed in chem trails. Yet here they are literally screaming 'conspiracy', and they're not the only one. Just this morning there was a story in the paper that child graves belonging to victims who died of abuse have been littered with messages that this is the fault of the COVID conspiracy elite pedophile network. And these aren't people who have lived in caves all their lives, they're "normal" people with "normal" jobs.

So yeah, thinking this type of lunacy will just die along with the lunatics is wishfull thinking.
 
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happyninja42

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Yeah, but these viewpoints aren't fading. Not in the sense that the people who uphold them die, collectively lowering it. You'd think by now sexism would be a thing that died along with the people who held those beliefs long ago, but it hasn't. You'd think after the worst case scenario that was the Holocaust, something people certainly right after its reveal labeled the most inhuman and vile acts humanity was ever thought capable of, that anti-semitism would be a thing that died along with nazi-Germany, but it hasn't. Even after that.

The passing of racists, sexists, homophobes, and transphobes hasn't and will not put an end to bigotry. This shit always finds a way to remain on its feet. You mention COVID and how people are reacting like idiots to it, but that's a mindset that certainly in my country people thought was something we as a species had grown beyond. But I have someone in my family that's buying in the this whole conspiracy nonsense, and they went to college and not but a few years back made fun of people who believed in chem trails. Yet here they are literally screaming 'conspiracy', and they're not the only one. Just this morning there was a story in the paper that child graves belonging to victims who died of abuse have been littered with messages that this is the fault of the COVID conspiracy elite pedophile network. And these aren't people who have lived in caves all their lives, they're "normal" people with "normal" jobs.

So yeah, thinking this type of lunacy will just die along with the lunatics is wishfull thinking.
But it does fade with them dying, like I said, it's a generational thing. It's a slow process, but fewer people alive now, view the world like people did back in the 50s, or the 40s, and so on. Because the people that hold those beliefs, are mostly dead, and fewer people growing up after them, adopted those beliefs. I freaking said in my post we have to work to keep their beliefs from spreading, and it DOES work, but you are not going to change the minds of the majority of the people who hold an outdated, or hostile belief structure. But fewer people these days are religious, than in any previous generation, and the number has been steadily rising on every pole. It's slow, going from say a 2% margin, to a 10% margin, doesn't seem like much, but it's how it works. More people raised outside of their archaic worldview, and then the previous ones just die out, making less of them overall. Sure, that doesn't account for them having power and influence, and doesn't account for all the damage they can do while they are here now, but it's ultimately what will work. You can have numbers change somewhat, when things like the capitol attack happen, as we've seen a decent number of people changing their political alignment as a result, leaving the republican party. But the limbaughs, and the trumps, and the grahams and cruzs of the world, are NEVER going to change, they're NEVER going to actually realize they are full of shit, and actively change. And until they die, we are stuck with them and their viewpoints.

What we can do is damage control until they die out, and make sure fewer people are raised in their viewpoint going forward. Which is what I said initially.
 
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Thaluikhain

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I might point out that the Irish were widely hated to an extent that that's just not true anymore,. Outside the UK people probably don't remember that was a thing.
 

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But it does fade with them dying, like I said, it's a generational thing. It's a slow process, but fewer people alive now, view the world like people did back in the 50s, or the 40s, and so on. Because the people that hold those beliefs, are mostly dead, and fewer people growing up after them, adopted those beliefs. I freaking said in my post we have to work to keep their beliefs from spreading, and it DOES work, but you are not going to change the minds of the majority of the people who hold an outdated, or hostile belief structure. But fewer people these days are religious, than in any previous generation, and the number has been steadily rising on every pole. It's slow, going from say a 2% margin, to a 10% margin, doesn't seem like much, but it's how it works. More people raised outside of their archaic worldview, and then the previous ones just die out, making less of them overall. Sure, that doesn't account for them having power and influence, and doesn't account for all the damage they can do while they are here now, but it's ultimately what will work. You can have numbers change somewhat, when things like the capitol attack happen, as we've seen a decent number of people changing their political alignment as a result, leaving the republican party. But the limbaughs, and the trumps, and the grahams and cruzs of the world, are NEVER going to change, they're NEVER going to actually realize they are full of shit, and actively change. And until they die, we are stuck with them and their viewpoints.

What we can do is damage control until they die out, and make sure fewer people are raised in their viewpoint going forward. Which is what I said initially.
It's not the Trumps or the Limbaughs (the older generation) that I worry too much about, it's people that are younger than I am that are spouting the same or even worse rhetoric. This is the younger generation that should know better and that aren't necessarily raised with conservative ideals, but still end up following them. There have been cases in both the Netherlands and Belgium recently where a rightwing political party got in the news due to the youth party being revealed to share incredibly racist and anti-semitic chat texts. And the fact that rightwing parties have been on the rise globally as it is, many with a fresh, young alt-Right go-getter coat of paint. Now this is probably a sign of progressivism actual gaining ground and the Right and people with conservative mindsets feeling the need to push back harder, but it shows that people will reach for racism and anti-semitism at the slightest hardship. And this seemingly never changes. Again, you'd think all this insane conspiracy talk that has risen up during the COVID pandemic was a side we'd left behind long ago, but here it is alive and well.
 
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Silvanus

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And the fact that rightwing parties have been on the rise globally as it is, many with a fresh, young alt-Right go-getter coat of paint.
I'm starting to dislike the term "alt-right", because it seems to imply some meaningful difference in position from the grey-suited, staid, reactionary right of yesteryear. But the difference in policy isn't really very meaningful at all. They seem to be (for the most part) just pushing the same old monetarist fiscal policies that failed in the 80's, the same corporatism-worshipping free-market dogma, the same nationalist prejudices.

It's all just a bit dressed up under a new, greasy veneer. It's the same tired rotten shit inside, in terms of actual policy and political positioning. They're just trying to pull a rebrand, because so many right-wing parties function essentially as bloated PR companies rather than principled groups.
 

ObsidianJones

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I'm starting to dislike the term "alt-right", because it seems to imply some meaningful difference in position from the grey-suited, staid, reactionary right of yesteryear. But the difference in policy isn't really very meaningful at all. They seem to be (for the most part) just pushing the same old monetarist fiscal policies that failed in the 80's, the same corporatism-worshipping free-market dogma, the same nationalist prejudices.

It's all just a bit dressed up under a new, greasy veneer. It's the same tired rotten shit inside, in terms of actual policy and political positioning. They're just trying to pull a rebrand, because so many right-wing parties function essentially as bloated PR companies rather than principled groups.
This is a fantastic point.

How much of the party needs to embrace alt-right tendencies before we remove the 'alt' part? If they are embracing Qanon wholesale and the few elected officials that have the most play are the direct members of these Fringe Groups... doesn't that make them less fringe and more mainstream and representative?
 

Xprimentyl

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I'm starting to dislike the term "alt-right", because it seems to imply some meaningful difference in position from the grey-suited, staid, reactionary right of yesteryear. But the difference in policy isn't really very meaningful at all. They seem to be (for the most part) just pushing the same old monetarist fiscal policies that failed in the 80's, the same corporatism-worshipping free-market dogma, the same nationalist prejudices.

It's all just a bit dressed up under a new, greasy veneer. It's the same tired rotten shit inside, in terms of actual policy and political positioning. They're just trying to pull a rebrand, because so many right-wing parties function essentially as bloated PR companies rather than principled groups.
I think the "re-brand" came in the wake of a president who basically embodied and emboldened the extreme of their views. Like if I was tacitly pro-murder, then suddenly a leader of the free world is elected who says "murder isn't that bad, and killers are 'special people' and 'we love [them],'" then fuck it; I don't feel the need to be quiet on my opinions on murder. In fact, I'll show up anywhere where anti-murder ideals are supported and shout in their faces...

No, their ideals haven't changed in nigh 4 decades, it's just that we "enjoyed" 4 years of a president who personified those ideals to comically absurd levels. The genie needs put back in the bottle but, per the spirit of that adage, that can't be done, so we needed to call it something else.
 

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I'm starting to dislike the term "alt-right", because it seems to imply some meaningful difference in position from the grey-suited, staid, reactionary right of yesteryear. But the difference in policy isn't really very meaningful at all. They seem to be (for the most part) just pushing the same old monetarist fiscal policies that failed in the 80's, the same corporatism-worshipping free-market dogma, the same nationalist prejudices.

It's all just a bit dressed up under a new, greasy veneer. It's the same tired rotten shit inside, in terms of actual policy and political positioning. They're just trying to pull a rebrand, because so many right-wing parties function essentially as bloated PR companies rather than principled groups.
What little difference there might've been lost its illusion after the first year or so. I simply mentioned it as a shorthand for the new rise of conservatism across the globe, which I assume is how most people view it.
 

Buyetyen

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No, they're not. Not necessarily.
I would argue that if someone believes Limbaugh's irrational attacks on everyone who isn't a cis-straight, white, conservative man, that same irrationality will infect the rest of their thinking. Does this give them malign intent? Not necessarily. It does however mean that they have thoughts and actions that have very real negative consequences in the larger world. My grandparents aren't actively hostile to anyone, but over the last 20 years have adopted a sort of passive malignancy.
 

Xprimentyl

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I would argue that if someone believes Limbaugh's irrational attacks on everyone who isn't a cis-straight, white, conservative man, that same irrationality will infect the rest of their thinking. Does this give them malign intent? Not necessarily. It does however mean that they have thoughts and actions that have very real negative consequences in the larger world. My grandparents aren't actively hostile to anyone, but over the last 20 years have adopted a sort of passive malignancy.
Agreed. I'm sure there were plenty of Nazi supporters who never actually killed a Jewish person with their own hands; that doesn't make them people worth the benefit of the doubt that they might be good people otherwise. Once they've shown their hand, the game is over; I'm not going to continue betting on the off chance the cards they're holding might not be what they are.

Limbaugh stood for a lot of shitty things; I'm certain his speech incited a lot of shitty actions and perpetuated shitty beliefs. I cannot mourn for or extend "condolences" to someone who objectively made the world a worse place.
 

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I would argue that if someone believes Limbaugh's irrational attacks on everyone who isn't a cis-straight, white, conservative man, that same irrationality will infect the rest of their thinking. Does this give them malign intent? Not necessarily. It does however mean that they have thoughts and actions that have very real negative consequences in the larger world. My grandparents aren't actively hostile to anyone, but over the last 20 years have adopted a sort of passive malignancy.
I'm not disputing any of that. If someone sympathizes with Rush Limbaugh's opinions, then yeah, they're as bad as he was, or certainly run the risk of being as bad. But I won't say the same for someone - most likely a family member - who grieves over his death, because grief is something you have little control over, even if it's over someone you know has done bad things and profited off of it. You can't always turn off feelings like that, even when you know the person in question doesn't deserve them. This is ofcourse assuming you aren't supporting their bad actions in any way, because in that case, again, you are just as bad.

Just to make it clear, this is not me stating Rush Limbaugh in any way deserves to be mourned by anyone.