Sacred 3: If Someone Asks If You Are a God, You Say Yes!

Apr 5, 2008
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That article reminds me of a book review Pat Rothfuss did [https://www.goodreads.com/review/show/954065150]. From the review:
Pat Rothfuss said:
The book's two main characters, as you might have guessed, are Toot and Puddle. They're two pigs that are best friends.

That's not the problem.

In this story, Puddle is trying to figure out what to get his friend for his birthday.

That's not the problem either.

The problem is that Puddle, a sentient pig capable of speech, goes shopping at a pet store. And (spoiler alert) buys a parrot for his friend.

THIS is the problem.

Let's breeze right past the fact that the only thing that makes a parrot cool is the fact that it's an animal that can talk. And therefore in a world full of talking animals it would have nothing to make it unique.

No. Let's jump straight into the fact that in this world where animals are people and they can talk, Puddle effectively buys a person. He buys another sentient creature to give away as a present.
Context really does matter since no matter how well meaning, these ideas are very poorly thought out given the context.
 

WickedLordJasper

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Zombie Badger said:
If you had a Christian-like system where heaven was a perfect, wonderful existence then the most noble, heroic thing anyone could do would be to murder as many innocents as possible, to get them into heaven before they could offend God enough that he wouldn't want them anymore. A moment of pain as the knife enters their throat before an eternity of happiness, pleasure and fulfilment. What more could anyone ask for?
This is making the common mistake of believing that life is just a pointless waiting room for the afterlife. Not to get too theological, but the Bible clearly disagrees with this interpretation, most famously in The Parable of the Talents.

For those unfamiliar with it, it goes like this: a master (representing God) is about to go on a long journey, and leaves his three servants (representing humanity) with a gold talent apiece (i.e. a gold coin, representing everyone's natural gifts). He then tells them to make the most of it while he's gone.

The master comes back several years later to see how his servants fared. The first two invested their gold talent and earned more. The master is pleased and rewards them. Then the third servant comes forward. He was scared of consequences, so he buried his talent in a hole in the ground and waited for the master's return. The master then gets angry at him, saying that he gave the servant an opportunity and he wasted it.

One of the most common interpretations of this parable is that God does not want people to just sit around waiting for death. Life is a gift, an we're expected to make the most of it. Squandering your gifts, or by extension depriving other people of the opportunity to use their gifts, is wrong. That's why "murder as a shortcut to Heaven" is not a good idea.
 

castlewise

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Jul 18, 2010
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I was following you right until the last sentence. I'm sure it does change the context, but its not clear how.
 
Jan 12, 2012
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Zombie Badger said:
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Also, killing is wrong by the commandments of God, and by doing so you are damning yourself with your own hand rather than using that hand to help everyone, including yourself, be worthy of Him.
But isn't self-sacrifice to help others considered a good thing? I may burn for eternity, but so many others will have an eternal future of bliss assured for them.
But you aren't be asked to sacrifice yourself in that manner. You are explicitly told how you can serve God and your fellow man to help everyone get to eternal bliss, rather than disrespecting God by assuming your own method is better. You also cannot guarantee eternal bliss for anyone because you are not God.

The sort of logic you are using is the same as suicide bombers and other extremists, where they assume a fundamental disconnect between the average rules laid out by God and the best path to heaven (for yourself or others), rather than realising that the path to heaven is to follow the rules of God.
 

Darth_Payn

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Thanatos2k said:
The gods tasking you to stop someone else from becoming a god doesn't even make sense. Why don't they just stop him themselves!? Wave your hand, whatever.

Even more nonsensically, if as a god you don't want people to be able to become gods, you definitely wouldn't tell others it's possible. You'd wipe Winker Watson off the map and make everyone forget what he was even trying to do.

So what you're saying is that Sacred 3 has bad writing.
Of course. The "jokes" alone should tell you that!
 

Canadamus Prime

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Jun 17, 2009
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I see what you're saying here. Is it any more wrong for a person to want to ascend to godhood in a world where gods are very well known to exist than it is for a poor person to want to ascend above poverty to a level of wealth and success? Assuredly not. Now the methods by which they go about achieving this goal might be brought into question, but the goal itself cannot be called inherently evil in such a world. ...unless you're the gods, but then that's a matter of perspective, isn't it?
 

Therumancer

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Nov 28, 2007
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Thanatos2k said:
The gods tasking you to stop someone else from becoming a god doesn't even make sense. Why don't they just stop him themselves!? Wave your hand, whatever.

Even more nonsensically, if as a god you don't want people to be able to become gods, you definitely wouldn't tell others it's possible. You'd wipe Winker Watson off the map and make everyone forget what he was even trying to do.

So what you're saying is that Sacred 3 has bad writing.
Well Sacred 3 is a mess, however pretty much every question raised here has been answered a number of different ways if various fantasy series and concepts. Thieves World, The Forgotten Realms, and other things have all focused heavily on what it means to be a deity and why the typical fantasy status quo exists, it tends to be something long on the exposition though so explanations don't translate well into media like TV shows, movies, comics, video games, etc... like a lot of complicated ideas don't, which is why people have remained critical of those mediums and how well they
can tell stories compared to good old fashioned books. As a general rule though this unpleasant fellow becoming a god and having unlimited power is something that inherently seems like a bad idea, sure you can analyze this and say "hey we need more information, otherwise it seems like we're jumping to conclusions" but the problem is you don't really want to sit through an hour long presentation on fantasy metaphysics and explaining exactly why this is a bad idea. When say Doctor Strange stops Doctor Doom, Baron Mordo, Dormamammu or others from ascending to higher states of being or gaining/absorbing godlike power, we generally rely on what little see of their character traits for stopping them being a bad guy, Doctor Strange implies there is more to it than simply that, but I doubt anyone want see a 100 issue series of "Doctor Strange lectures on comic book mysticism".

That said the most simple way of explaining why your typical fantasy pantheon doesn't want anyone ascending is simply because having divine power is like having a nuclear weapon. You don't want Bob the Necromancer Lord to ascend to godhood and start playing around with cosmic forces, any more than you want third world countries to have nuclear weapons or highly advanced military forces. In the back story of a lot of fantasy worlds it's inevitable someone plays on this level eventually, and starts screwing stuff up, and needs to be stopped, oftentimes in the back story. Many fallen evil gods, dark lords, etc... in back stories were of course mortals, sometime well meaning ones, who got to that level and wound up screwing everything up.

Another point that comes up is that gods basically have to represent something, being cosmic, universal, forces. Some guy ascends to godhood, and the big question becomes what his sphere of influence is going to be. Is he willing to become a sub-deity under an existing one, or merge himself into a higher power and become an aspect of it? (depending on the concept) or is he going to fight for the throne. While you can say that of course gods by definition don't want to have their own power bases disturbed because they like the racket they have going, there is also the very valid point that nobody wants to see two gods fight over who gets the title/sphere since that spills over into a lot of things and other spheres. If say you've got Neptune fighting Bob The Aquamancer for title of god of the seas, your dealing with massive chaos throughout the oceans in all worlds they rule as they try and destroy each other with water. Aquatic races are going to need to pick a side, and many are going to flee, amphibious ones will probably rise to the surface and start invading the lands held by followers of other gods. As the minions/followers of these two gods start clashing there is of course a war, and your going to get the war god involved, and if they start predictably using storms then of course the air god gets involved, and oh hey... what if different deities whose spheres get crossed into have different ideas on which side to take... next thing you know you have the gods all warring with each other and destroying entire portions of reality, creating power vaccums if any of them die, etc...

In "The Forgotten Realms" the world was nearly destroyed when a bunch of mortals figured out they could become gods themselves, and the first thing they did was decide to absorb the god of magic (since they were wizards) and have their leader (a guy called Karsus) take his place. The thing is they sucked up the god of magic, destabilized all magic in the world as a result, and caused a cataclysm for both gods and men.

In "Thieves World" at a certain point the gods recruit mortals who reach a certain level of power, they had a story or two about this. Of course those gods tend to be a lot less than "ultimate" powers as they are portrayed in other worlds. Basically there is no need to try and steal godhood, you become powerful enough, regardless of which side of the morality spectrum your on, eventually you'll get an invitation.

A few other series have used concepts of micro-spheres as well, oftentimes with humerous intent, where you might have some gorgeous babe who ascends and wants to be goddess of love, but that and most of it's various aspects have been taken, so she gets to be the patron goddess of masturbation or something. Or where some dude who spanks it a lot might get so good at doing so that the gods invite him to be the god of masturbation. Sort of like "The Devil Comes Down To Georgia" except it's not a guitar Johnny B. Good is playing with and the reward is ascension, not a fiddle of gold. :)

The point here, which I am getting away from, is that something like "Sacred 3" could explain itself easily, but it didn't (like most similar things) and the big question when it comes to mockery is whether you really would have preferred them explaining it. I think back to say "Final Fantasy XIII" and the whole mess of cosmology and world building that was behind what Lightning and her friends were up to, and how little patience people had with that, as few people wanted to read the exposition or explanation as to what was going on and why.


-

On a more realistic front, the reason why god doesn't intervene constantly is because if he did that it would remove free will. Basically nobody would ever do anything wrong, or choose to be bad, if they knew there was going to be immediate punishment from on high. If you can't choose to be bad, or do wrong, nobody can ever be good either. What's more with tight control, humanity will never progress.

I think the big problem with religion a lot of people who are anti-religious have, is that they can't really conceive of something as benevolent as god is supposed to be as a concept and/or get tied up in the exact word of the bible (which is just a book which gives some good advice and guidelines). Once you understand that, and the value of free will, it becomes easier to start putting it into perspective.

I'm not a deeply spiritual person even if I am Christian, and not really evangelical at heart, so I'm not the one to really explain this or make a case for it in a real world sense.
 

beastro

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Injecting class warfare into theology is amusing and something I'm actually not surprised to see come from someone raised in latter day Britain now that I think about it.
 

Thanatos2k

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Thunderous Cacophony said:
Zombie Badger said:
Thunderous Cacophony said:
Also, killing is wrong by the commandments of God, and by doing so you are damning yourself with your own hand rather than using that hand to help everyone, including yourself, be worthy of Him.
But isn't self-sacrifice to help others considered a good thing? I may burn for eternity, but so many others will have an eternal future of bliss assured for them.
But you aren't be asked to sacrifice yourself in that manner. You are explicitly told how you can serve God and your fellow man to help everyone get to eternal bliss, rather than disrespecting God by assuming your own method is better. You also cannot guarantee eternal bliss for anyone because you are not God.

The sort of logic you are using is the same as suicide bombers and other extremists, where they assume a fundamental disconnect between the average rules laid out by God and the best path to heaven (for yourself or others), rather than realising that the path to heaven is to follow the rules of God.
Yes, it is. And that's why some people come to that conclusion - because religion doesn't really make sense. Plus really, are you going to say YOUR intepretation of a multi-millenial old book in a different language is guaranteed to be correct and theirs is wrong?
 

Thanatos2k

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Therumancer said:
Thanatos2k said:
The gods tasking you to stop someone else from becoming a god doesn't even make sense. Why don't they just stop him themselves!? Wave your hand, whatever.

Even more nonsensically, if as a god you don't want people to be able to become gods, you definitely wouldn't tell others it's possible. You'd wipe Winker Watson off the map and make everyone forget what he was even trying to do.

So what you're saying is that Sacred 3 has bad writing.
That said the most simple way of explaining why your typical fantasy pantheon doesn't want anyone ascending is simply because having divine power is like having a nuclear weapon. You don't want Bob the Necromancer Lord to ascend to godhood and start playing around with cosmic forces, any more than you want third world countries to have nuclear weapons or highly advanced military forces. In the back story of a lot of fantasy worlds it's inevitable someone plays on this level eventually, and starts screwing stuff up, and needs to be stopped, oftentimes in the back story. Many fallen evil gods, dark lords, etc... in back stories were of course mortals, sometime well meaning ones, who got to that level and wound up screwing everything up.
Well sure, but who are the gods to say who can and can't become a god, like who are we to say who can and can't develop nuclear weapons on their own? Because we got them first, we have to threaten and destroy any other country that tries?

On a more realistic front, the reason why god doesn't intervene constantly is because if he did that it would remove free will. Basically nobody would ever do anything wrong, or choose to be bad, if they knew there was going to be immediate punishment from on high. If you can't choose to be bad, or do wrong, nobody can ever be good either. What's more with tight control, humanity will never progress.
Who says it removes free will? It would just mean certain choices have certain consequences, like life already has. It would just change the parameters you use to evaluate your decisions. Choose to jump off a cliff and you die. Does that mean no one has free will near cliff edges?
 

Olas

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Dec 24, 2011
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Zombie Badger said:
If you had a Christian-like system where heaven was a perfect, wonderful existence then the most noble, heroic thing anyone could do would be to murder as many innocents as possible, to get them into heaven before they could offend God enough that he wouldn't want them anymore. A moment of pain as the knife enters their throat before an eternity of happiness, pleasure and fulfilment. What more could anyone ask for?
I think the idea is that people are supposed to live out their lives so that

1. They can spread the word of god.

2. Have children.[footnote]Interestingly, if people have free will, isn't the creation of living being through sex just as random, or at least not divinely inspired, as if it happened without a god anyway?[/footnote]

3. Live a full life so that their judgment is fair and based on a full lifetime of experience.

So if you kill those people, you're screwing with God's system. You're also probably breaking up a lot of families, at least temporarily.

I could be wrong though, I'm not a theologist.
 

Joshroom

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In a way the whole premise of the game reminds me a little of Trudy Canavan's Priestess of the White series.,

If you haven't read it - by the way,go read it, awesome series - major spoilers. In a world of magic and magicians the "Gods" watch over like watchful leaders - the only five surviving "Gods" after the God War. They call strong magicians to their service and condemn the Wilds, rogue and powerful magicians. It seems that they are caring of their followers and even speak directly to their chosen ones.

The real truth is that anyone with sufficient power can become a "God" and their religion is just a way to suppress potential magicians from ascending themselves; while simultaneously amusing themselves by pitting two nations of followers against each-other.

The "Gods" are but humans, with the same desires and drives they always had, just now in a different form. So in the world of Sacred 3 maybe its as simple as that. Its no problem that the villain is a mass-murdering, conquering pyscho. They're just worried about the potential competition he represents.
 

Bruce

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Thunderous Cacophony said:
Zombie Badger said:
If you had a Christian-like system where heaven was a perfect, wonderful existence then the most noble, heroic thing anyone could do would be to murder as many innocents as possible, to get them into heaven before they could offend God enough that he wouldn't want them anymore. A moment of pain as the knife enters their throat before an eternity of happiness, pleasure and fulfilment. What more could anyone ask for?
For you to be good. God doesn't ask of you to go around and kill everyone that you judge as innocent so that they can enter His Kingdom sooner (which is silly anyways, because what's 80 years max of waiting against eternity). He asks that you follow His laws and treat your fellow man with justice (that includes mercy as the main component), and trust that He will take up His children in His own time. In that way, you serve your God, your fellow man, and yourself.

OT: Perhaps we should draw a line between "becoming a god" and "obtaining god-like power", because villains are almost always aiming for the latter, even if they say they want the former.
The real flaw in his reasoning is that under Christian morality sin is passed on from generation to generation, so you're pretty much damned from birth.

Also, the genocidal maniac who rapes then eats babies is pretty much in the same bracket with that guy with a really firm right hand grip. The person who you think of as being innocent probably isn't.

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all," James 2:10.

So the trick wouldn't be to kill innocents, but rather to hang around outside confessionals gunning down the forgiven. Go for head shots, so they don't have time to be pissed at you over it because being angry counts the same as murder (Matthew 5:22).

After you are done with your day of murder, go into the confessional yourself, repent your sins and viola, heaven for everyone.

Except maybe the priest.
 

Robyrt

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Bruce said:
The real flaw in his reasoning is that under Christian morality sin is passed on from generation to generation, so you're pretty much damned from birth.

Also, the genocidal maniac who rapes then eats babies is pretty much in the same bracket with that guy with a really firm right hand grip. The person who you think of as being innocent probably isn't.

"For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all," James 2:10.

So the trick wouldn't be to kill innocents, but rather to hang around outside confessionals gunning down the forgiven. Go for head shots, so they don't have time to be pissed at you over it because being angry counts the same as murder (Matthew 5:22).

After you are done with your day of murder, go into the confessional yourself, repent your sins and viola, heaven for everyone.

Except maybe the priest.
This is one of the big reasons why Protestants don't use the confessional system, and don't believe sin is passed between generations. You avoid this problem entirely.
 

LenticularHomicide

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Our Sour Lord said:
Society cannot function without a middle class - the vassals or the peasants or whatever you call them have to be able to think that they, too, could rise to the top if they put the work in, because otherwise you send the message that the underclass have no power over their own lives, and do not deserve any.
Looks like someone hasn't heard of the Great Chain of Being, which was the Renaissance theory that everything had its place in the world, and that Nature in general was ranked hierarchically, and functioned best when everything knew its place and acted accordingly. The notion of "upward mobility" would be unheard of (indeed, decried as heretical) in such a system. I mean, even bloody Shakespeare wrote tragedies about what happens when an upstart tries to claw his way to the top (like Macbeth, for instance).

This is what happens when you attempt to apply current ideas and models of thinking to locales and eras where the prevailing mindsets were different; you get confused about why the world isn't behaving "normally" (i.e. according to your current mindset).

Note: This is emphatically not a defense of "cultural relativism" of the flinching apologist variety, which attempts to excuse all manner of injustice in the present day under the pretense of "cultural sensitivity". I am talking strictly about analysing historical (or pseudo-historical) situations using the values of their time in order to gain a greater understanding. If I had enough knowledge about Game of Thrones to make a relevant analogy, that would go here.
 

KilloZapit

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Not to be an advocate for any religion or anything, but I have to ask: Why it would be impossible for a god-like being to love humans? I don't think it's impossible for say, a human to love ants, or even an individual ant. Weird, and maybe difficult, but not impossible. Plus one of the only reasons we as humans tend to dismiss "lesser" creatures is because we don't pay enough attention to them or learn enough about them. We have different priorities because we have to focus much more on each other and our own survival to worry about the ants we step on. That doesn't apply if we have few or no peers and we have no or little need to worry about survival. We also cannot easily gather information at the scale of an individual ant and it's habits or quirks. If we didn't have to worry about these things I would say we would either spread out and indulge our own individual obsessions in a god-like way, or become very bored very quickly. In other words, if a interpersonal God exists, and I personally doubt it does, it could still love us in the same way a nerd loves it's favorite obsession at the very least.
 

lordofpowies

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There was a series of books that I utterly cannot remember the name or author of, and the premise was that there were parallel universes you could jump to by means of some ancient ritual, and whenever you were in a universe other than your own, you were imbued with this power called "charisma" that could give you magical abilities. Basically all the gods from in any culture ever were just regular people from other worlds who figured out how to jump between worlds and exploit the charisma thing. You gained charisma based on the support or attention people gave you, so for example if you performed a miracle in front of a crowd, you would use up some charisma to perform that miracle, but the crowd's reaction would make up for it and give you more, and if you did this enough, building up your power, eventually you would become a "god", and by that point would also have had a pretty significant impact on the culture and mythology of whatever world you had invaded.
Yeah, it was a pretty weird series, but it was an interesting idea about the whole "becoming a god" theme, and depicted a situation where, not only is it possible to "ascend" to godhood, but in fact that's the only way gods could come about.