Salutatorian forced to change her graduation speech, is praised for doing so

[DirgeNovak]

The fuck is a salutatorian?

Anyway, religion has no place in public schools, and if her speech was indeed theocentric and contemptuous of non-Christians, they were right to make her change it.

 

[DefunctTheory]

The fuck is a salutatorian?

Anyway, religion has no place in public schools, and if her speech was indeed theocentric and contemptuous of non-Christians, they were right to make her change it.

Second Place Valedictorian.

 

[Aramis Night]

How does someone who believes the earth is 6000 years old pass an earth science class, let alone graduate as a salutatorian? If this is how low the standards are, I could only assume you would have to be in a coma to not be able to graduate from this school. Good to know that New York is the place to go for easy A's. Educational standards seem to have really fallen since my day.

maybe...she didnt take earth science? I know when i was in high school earth science was kinda a joke class, meant for those who werent very good at science or had no ambition in science. I went Biology -> Chemistry -> Physics -> AP science (in my case chemistry)

Also, other than Massachusetts, NY probably has one of the higher grades in education.

EDIT: okay, NY is apparently 12th, being beaten by Texas and Virginia....well that is embarrassing

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/articles/2014/04/21/how-states-compare-in-the-2014-best-high-schools-rankings

It seems like going the route of Biology might be a bit problematic for someone that believes that life has only existed for 6000 years considering that that is a course that is directly informed by evolution. Similar issues might also come into play with physics or even chemistry since the ability to discuss the creation of elements that form from processes naturally over the course of periods longer than 6000 years might be a sticking point. It just seems like a big roadblock to being able to discuss any modern science when the fundamental beliefs are in direct opposition to its own conclusions.

 

[Fappy]

Does not compute...

In D&D terms, there is a difference between Intelligence and Wisdom XD

As for the people complaining about her "freedom of speech", why not try to get a devout Muslim to do a similar speech next year and see how pro-free speech the people really are.

Unfortunately that double-standard is all too evident. You are completely right, a devout Muslim would not get near the same level of support. In fact, she'd probably end up with more opposition from the community.

Sad world we live in.

What happened to people simply disagreeing with what a public speaker had to say? You know, you're allowed to do that. They aren't imposing their views on you unless those views are dictating policy... which, admittedly, is the case in some areas of the US.

 

[someonehairy-ish]

The fuck is a salutatorian?

Anyway, religion has no place in public schools, and if her speech was indeed theocentric and contemptuous of non-Christians, they were right to make her change it.

Second Place Valedictorian.

Sooo... they're a race from Star Trek?

Anyway, as much as I dislike religion in general, and dislike the message that scientific illiteracy or fear of scientific knowledge is ever something to celebrate, I can't really take the stance that students shouldn't be allowed to talk about god(s) in speeches. Personally, I plan to dedicate my graduation speech to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, Sauce Be Upon Him.

 

[lacktheknack]

She's not the public school system, she's a student. It's her speech. I think her right to free speech is perfectly protected.

 

[Lilani]

Now that that's out of my system what does the escapist think about this?

I also firmly believe in secular school systems and school curriculum, and am rather disgusted in the steps America is taking backward in this regard.

However...

This girl wasn't teaching a class. She wasn't telling people how to think. She was just saying how she felt, in a personal speech in which she had no authority over anybody she was speaking to. I don't think separation of church and state necessarily means "church things" never getting mentioned at school ever. It's a part of many student's lives, of course they're going to talk about it. But as long as the system remains neutral to all religious affiliations--including none at all--and as long as the curriculum remains neutral and secular then all is well. You can't ask people to stop talking about religion, just provide an environment where people of all religions feel safe to believe what they will. And I don't see how someone talking about their religiosity is in any way a violation of that. It's just an aspect of her.

 

[lacktheknack]

How does someone who believes the earth is 6000 years old pass an earth science class, let alone graduate as a salutatorian? If this is how low the standards are, I could only assume you would have to be in a coma to not be able to graduate from this school. Good to know that New York is the place to go for easy A's. Educational standards seem to have really fallen since my day.

As someone who was heavily into the Young Earth thing in high school, it's pretty easy. You give them the answers they want to hear, and explain the concept of evolution correctly, regardless of whether you believe it. If anything, it's a great way to practice for University.

 

[Odd Owl]

Some Christians have a persecution complex because they've never had to be exposed to dealing with people of differing religious beliefs, and because the population of the United States is quickly becoming both more religiously diverse and secular, they think that they're being persecuted because things that violate the Church/State separation are being called out on it and that other people are practicing their non-Christian beliefs publically, not to mention people taking political stances opposed to some religious beliefs that some Christians have, like the death penalty, same-sex marriage, abortion, birth control, etc.!

Girl was invited to give her personal remarks to the graduating class. Girl's remarks reflected her personal religious convictions. Girl was forced to change her remarks. Girl has a persecution complex.

I don't really see how that last one was a "complex."

On topic, the speech would have been somewhat similar to having public prayers before a school event. I'm a little fuzzy on religious expression laws that govern that situation in the US, but I think that's considered a 1st Amendment violation. So I imagine the board was within its legal rights to ask her to change her speech. Furthermore, I don't really think her decision to use a time of celebration for her class to make a personal political statement was in good taste (a statement regarding censorship - I won't judge whether her original speech may or may not have been in good taste since I have little idea what was in it).

With all that said, I do think that this situation begs a different question. Why would a civilization that values the freedoms of belief and expression so highly see fit to tell a schoolgirl that she cannot express herself freely because that would involve her discussing her beliefs?

Was what she would have said originally really so dangerous? I doubt it. Is it okay for a government to restrict a person's freedom of expression and to undermine her freedom of belief in order to avoid the possibility that her comments will cause other people five minute's discomfort or offense? If so, why the hell do we even pretend to value those freedoms?

TL;DR: school board was legally right, doesn't say much for the value of freedom of expression or belief

 

[Nieroshai]

Just my two cents: the First Amendment prohibits the government enforcing religion, and preventing us from practicing it. It does not give the government permission or authority to silence it.

 

[Worgen]

Separation of Church and State means that the State cannot endorse any religion, or make policy/law in respect to any religion. It does not mean that everyone that falls under the purview of the State (In this case, a student) is banned from open, public speech about religion.

Student's are citizens who are being rendered a service by the state (being taught), not employees or part of the State. As such, they can say whatever they want, and the State cannot do a damn thing about it. Nor should they be able to.

As for the student... the amount of praise may be a bit much. It was a good thing and all, but it wasn't like the school was going to literally throw her under a bus if she didn't comply.

Besides, it was a learning experience, her speech. Nothing alienates normal people from religion more then being told God is responsible for all your success, and that your basically just an ant that's only allowed to have skills because some higher power deemed it so. I can feel the notion of secular government growing as I type!

Well, one way states get around the whole separation thing is by quietly encouraging students to spread the whole god message thing then saying, "we didn't have anything to do with it, it was all the students." It's actually quite insidious since in the past its been used to target non-christians and without the faculty able to be directly blamed.

 

[Haukur Isleifsson]

Isn't she being given this platform of expression by the school? The school being a publicly funded organization and the speech being a part of an official ceremony held by them. Isn't her speech than in fact publicly funded? Does funding a religious speech not constitute "respecting an establishment of religion"?

I sometimes feel that Americans are hyper sensitive to these sort of symbolic connection of the public and the religious. But as my stupid country still has a state religion and we have to actively fight religious indoctrination in bloody kindergartens I might be desensitized to the finer points of separation of church and state.

 

[Scars Unseen]

As an atheist, I think that her intended speech was annoying and I would have probably rolled my eyes through its telling had I been present. But as an American, I think the school was wrong for making her change it. She isn't an official representative of the school, so there are no church and state issues here. She was given a platform to speak, and it should have been her words that were spoken. No matter how trite and insulting I find them.

 

[Jacco]

Why does it seem that everyone can have an opinion on something BUT the majority? Every day I see threads like this and it makes me wonder what the hell makes it okay to tell the majority to shut the fuck up since they are "privileged." I truly don't understand it.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

Hmm, okay then. Well, let's see a devout theistic Satanist get up on that podium and deliver a similar speech. I wonder how many people will be praising them for standing up for their beliefs then.

In any case, I see why the speech was censored. If you say something as offensive and outright ridiculous as "all your achievements were done because of god" then what did she expect? You're demeaning students of their achievements because of your own personal beliefs. That's some hefty bullshit in my eyes. I also do agree that religion should not be prevalent in school. Religion should be a personal belief, not something you impose on others. It's hard for me to have any amount of sympathy here.

 

[BathorysGraveland2]

It's her speech and she should be able to say whatever she wants. So long as she wasn't pushing it on anyone she's done nothing wrong. You're a pretentious idiot.

She was giving a speech toward her fellow students and was going to say something to the effect of "all your achievements were done because of god". How is that not pushing her beliefs on other people and demeaning the fuck out of them? Don't go around insulting people without having the fucking courtesy of thinking before you speak, please?

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I think it is actually censorship and the school shouldn't have made her change her speech. As long as the school and those speaking for it as a government body don't endorse one religion over another or none, students should be able to say what they like. Of course, ideally everyone else would roll their eyes and whisper to each other how fucking stupid her speech is, but it's still what she thinks.

I have a bit of a problem with people telling other people their successes are because of God, because I know a few people who have gone down the route of suicide with that in mind intending to use the outcome as an indicator of God's will. And once you establish that kind of shit, confirmation bias and the placebo effect take over. Well, not necessarily, but still.

Why does it seem that everyone can have an opinion on something BUT the majority? Every day I see threads like this and it makes me wonder what the hell makes it okay to tell the majority to shut the fuck up since they are "privileged." I truly don't understand it.

Are you wrongly implying that Christian theists are a majority? I get your sentiment, but every issue's different.