Say hello to the new Iron Woman

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
6,374
0
0
Areloch said:
shrekfan246 said:
Areloch said:
Just, compared to reality,
It's probably not a good idea to start comparing comic books to reality.

For one thing, literally none of the most famous superheroes would even still be alive to care that their legacy is being adopted by other people.
To be fair, they do a lot to ground it all in a modern setting, while simultaneously making it so incredibly detached from reality it makes you wonder why they bother with Trump-expies or setting anything in what looks like a 1:1 replica of modern-day New York. If they're gunna completely toss out reality so you can have whatever crazy story they're rolling at the time, it feels aggressively lazy to hamstring themselves to a modern, real-life proxy setting for everything - except when it isn't.
That... really isn't just something comic books do. And the argument could be expanded to cover basically any setting that uses the real world as its basis, regardless of era.

People use real-world locations because it's fun to have a bit of familiarity mixed in with the wacky wild weirdness. How much less iconic would the opening stage of Deus Ex be if they weren't allowed to use the Statue of Liberty as the thing you're infiltrating? How much more forgettable would Sid Meier's Pirates! or Assassin's Creed IV: Black Flag be if you weren't a Caribbean buccaneer? M*A*S*H wouldn't even exist if they couldn't set something during the Korean war, and forget about films like Blade Runner or Back to the Future or The Terminator or Robocop or Die Hard or... etc.

Maybe I'm expounding a bit far beyond what you really mean, but that's kinda the logical conclusion of your argument that fictional stories shouldn't "hamstring" themselves by... being superficially tied to the real world.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I understand how tiring it can be to people to just see that the stories are neverending, but that doesn't really have anything to do with the fact that they're set on Earth (and, of course, it ignores that plenty stories set in the Marvel universe in particular don't take place on Earth, though admittedly they're still presented as a modern-day sort of thing). Stories set in fictional worlds are just as susceptible to having more and more tacked on endlessly or being rebooted over and over again.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
8,577
2,909
118
Something Amyss said:
Anyway, knowing Speedball/Penance requires knowing too much about the comic book version of Civil War. Which is to say, anything. However, Penance could only use his power when he was in pain, so he had a suit with hundreds of spikes poking into him. Not quite the same as an iron maiden, but close enough for jazz.
.....please no. Ugh, no, I so don't want to see that.


Happyninja42 said:
As to why in another post, someone asked why they don't just use that one girl who is already established, probably because nobody knows who she is?
Something Amyss said:
Pepper Potts and Happy Hogan are pretty much the main (stable) supporting cast of Tony's life in the comics, something which carries over into the movies. Not so much Hogan, but Pepper is vital to Tony's functioning on any even remotely adult level. Pepper even gets injected with Extremis in 3.
Sorry, I was making that comment in regards to the other young, black, female engineer character that was mentioned earlier, and then asked why they don't use her. My point was that I've never heard of her, and likely very few people outside of die hard Iron Man fans have heard of her, so she has no draw power for the market. Hence why they wouldn't use her, and would instead make up a new character for the role.
 

WolfThomas

Man must have a code.
Dec 21, 2007
5,294
0
0
EternallyBored said:
Marvel and DC superscience pretty much work because the timelines get reset at some point, so all those awesome inventions that should have turned Earth into a sci-fi Wonderland 30 years ago just kind of poof out of existence.

For the timelines, DC and Marvel tend to reset the time period and technology through events, so technically every decade or so all the superscience and its potential effect on civilians or society at large gets reset with whatever major event happens, you'll see stuff like heroes curing major diseases or the super rich and superscience heroes coming up with all kinds of gadgets they talk about releasing to the public, but then Superboy Prime punches reality, or Darkseid get a hold of the anti-life equation, or someone finds a cosmic cube, and suddenly the heroes are back to being relatively new while the world has advanced to the 1970's,80's, or 90's technology wise. Some are time locked, like Magneto always being involved in WWII, but most heroes get their origin stories updated every decade or two, like how Iron Man went from being captured in Vietnam, to captured in the Middle East.

Also, the "Reed Richards is Useless trope", which is still used, but not as often anymore, back in the day it was the preferred method of handling superscience, have a hero invent something world changing, have them use it once, then never mention its existence ever again. Which is why Tony Stark has been building Ark reactors since Vietnam, but cars in 2016 Marvel still run on gasoline.

Its a bizarre effect of comics companies trying to merge all their superheroes into one world while still keeping it looking recognizably like our Earth today, its very complicated, and I honestly don't blame non comics fans for thinking its a pointlessly convoluted mess.
Marvel doesn't so much as reset as it has a sliding time-scale. Where some events are always a short time ago. Like it's been 11-something years since the Fantastic four had their rocket accident.

It actually became canon in recent Ultimates. If you haven't been reading (and you should it's great). Some events are fixed points in time as you say above, Captain America always fought in WW2. But the current time period is sort of tipping point for realities and timelines. Certain people/events are needed for multiversal stability, so they sort of get yanked forward and the timeline corrects around it. Some heroes become aware of this trying to reverse it, before finding out it's beyond them and not necessarily a bad thing. It was delightfully meta.

It meant those stories where Captain America quit because of Watergate are canon. Because it was 70's Cap at the time. But for Cap of the present that was adjusted by the timeline to be a more recent scandal.
 

EternallyBored

Terminally Apathetic
Jun 17, 2013
1,434
0
0
WolfThomas said:
Marvel doesn't so much as reset as it has a sliding time-scale. Where events are always a short time ago. Like it's been 11-something years since the Fantastic four had their rocket accident.

It actually became canon in recent Ultimates. If you haven't been reading (and you should it's great). Some events are fixed points in time as you say above, Captain America always fought in WW2. But the current time period is sort of tipping point for realities and timelines. Certain people/events are needed for multiversal stability, so they sort of get yanked forward and the timeline corrects around it. Some heroes become aware of this trying to reverse it, before finding out it's beyond them and not necessarily a bad thing. It was delightfully meta.

It mean those stories were Captain America quit because of Watergate are canon. Because it was 70's cap at the time. But for Cap of the present that was adjusted to be a more recent scandal.
I wanted to include the sliding time scale thing, but my post was getting lengthy, and I wanted to use an example that was easier to explain, as the sliding scale is something that takes a few paragraphs to properly explain. I always liked to think of it as Marvel prefers to do soft resets and DC prefers hard resets.

You are entirely right though, Marvel prefers to use the sliding time scale to adjust their events. I can't think of a good way to describe how that effects supertech, from my experience they seem to just handwave it most of the time, so the truly sci-fi stuff is always back at the beginning of the scale, so we never see more than just the beginning of its effects. I.E. Tony's origin seems to always be about a decade or so in the past, so the effects of the invention of the arc reactor and all his other stuff is always only just starting to make it to the public, same with Reed Richards and so on.

I have also just started on the Civil War II related stuff, so I'm open to suggestions for recommendations. I've got some criticisms so far, but I'm a lot more optimistic about this event than I ever was about the first Civil War.

I really like the younger generation they are setting up, it has a sort of classic Teen Titans feel in a Marvel sort of way. That, and I like the idea of the younger heroes fucking off to form their own team because they got sick of the adults fighting each other rather than the villains that are still attacking while we do the Civil War II: Electric Boogaloo.
 

WolfThomas

Man must have a code.
Dec 21, 2007
5,294
0
0
EternallyBored said:
I wanted to include the sliding time scale thing, but my post was getting lengthy, and I wanted to use an example that was easier to explain, as the sliding scale is something that takes a few paragraphs to properly explain. I always liked to think of it as Marvel prefers to do soft resets and DC prefers hard resets.

You are entirely right though, Marvel prefers to use the sliding time scale to adjust their events. I can't think of a good way to describe how that effects supertech, from my experience they seem to just handwave it most of the time, so the truly sci-fi stuff is always back at the beginning of the scale, so we never see more than just the beginning of its effects. I.E. Tony's origin seems to always be about a decade or so in the past, so the effects of the invention of the arc reactor and all his other stuff is always only just starting to make it to the public, same with Reed Richards and so on.

I have also just started on the Civil War II related stuff, so I'm open to suggestions for recommendations. I've got some criticisms so far, but I'm a lot more optimistic about this event than I ever was about the first Civil War.

I really like the younger generation they are setting up, it has a sort of classic Teen Titans feel in a Marvel sort of way. That, and I like the idea of the younger heroes fucking off to form their own team because they got sick of the adults fighting each other rather than the villains that are still attacking while we do the Civil War II: Electric Boogaloo.
I've always like the sliding time-scale and soft resets because it's nicer than saying "all these stories are no longer valid". That DC does now and again.

You're right about the technology. It's always at or around the start of this "Heroic Age" that gets pulled forward. Which explains as you say why we don't 50years of ARC technology. Though Marvel technology even on a civilian level is slightly ahead of ours. With things like Parker industries amazing smart phone recently.

Marvel's new Ultimates is great. It feels like an in-universe version of Wildstorm's Authority (or at least the Warren Ellis version). A team of superheroes dealing with far beyond the simple super villain or alien invasion.

Yeah I'm quite excited by the Champions line up. I love Amadeus Hulk, Miles Morales and Ms Marvel. I kind of wish the older generation of teenage heroes would step up into the adult scene though. Young Avengers like Kate Bishop, Patriot, X-men like Armor, Hellion, Prodigy etc.

The new Nova is fun, but I miss Richard Ryder. Here was a teenage hero who was actually allowed to grow and mature into a competent adult hero.
 

Metalix Knightmare

New member
Sep 27, 2007
831
0
0
Areloch said:
How on earth does a 15 year old MIT student get access to that kinda stuff?
From what I can remember? Stealing parts from other student's projects. I'm PRETTY certain that's what happened at least.

Which is Stupid considering Dr. Doom had a ton of reasources given to him to do science with. You'd figure a 15 year old (yeah right she's 15) prodigy would practically have the school throwing her materials.
 

springheeljack

Red in Tooth and Claw
May 6, 2010
645
0
0
Are people still trying to say that Rey is not a good character? Give it up already you aren't convincing anyone new so stop trying to shoehorn it into every discussion


(Sigh of course they will keep doing it right?)
 

votemarvel

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 11, 2020
1,353
3
43
Country
England
Riri building her suit at MIT isn't a big surprise. After all Tony built a Iron Man suit in the back of a Radio Shack and took off to help the Avengers fight Godzilla (though a mutated one because Marvel had lost the license at that point).

As to the technology argument. It has been shown on page that Reed Richards essentially blackmails companies into paying him not to release new technologies and inventions. I kind of think at times that Reed is a bigger arsehole than Doom. I wouldn't be shocked if the other super-scientists take a similar stance to things.

I actually think that people like Jane Foster as Thor shouldn't be on the main Avengers roster either. Yes she's got a decent powerset but that doesn't give her the centuries of combat experience that the Odinson has.
 

sanquin

New member
Jun 8, 2011
1,837
0
0
Changing existing male characters to women just sounds like pandering to me. If you want to make a black female superhero, make a new one... There should be no need to replace old ones unless they actually get old.
 
Feb 26, 2014
668
0
0
sanquin said:
Changing existing male characters to women just sounds like pandering to me. If you want to make a black female superhero, make a new one... There should be no need to replace old ones unless they actually get old.
But... they almost never get old. And if they do they just come back anyway. Captain America was an old man, which is why Captain Falcon replaced him. But now he's back in his prime. She is a new hero, though, since Stark isn't going anywhere.
 

Lightknight

Mugwamp Supreme
Nov 26, 2008
4,860
0
0
Doesn't really seem to matter anymore. Not really. I'm beginning to think of the whole marvel universe the way I thought of the Exiles series. Infinite worlds and infinite iterations/permutations of each hero/villain.
 

hermes

New member
Mar 2, 2009
3,865
0
0
I used to have an issue with changing a character identity while keeping the name, until I realized they have been doing it for years.

How many people named Flash has there been? How many Robins (some of them are women, by the way)? How many Ant-men? It was almost a superpower for The Phantom back in the 40s, and that is not even going into villains territory. There is even a recent plot for who gets to be Batman once Bruce Wayne is not around.

I just hope she gets to grow into an original character, like Ms Marvel and Ultimate Spiderman has, instead of just being "Stark with a feminine form"
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
6,374
0
0
hermes said:
I used to have an issue with changing a character identity while keeping the name, until I realized they have been doing it for years.

How many people named Flash has there been? How many Robins (some of them are women, by the way)? How many Ant-men? It was almost a superpower for The Phantom back in the 40s, and that is not even going into villains territory. There is even a recent plot for who gets to be Batman once Bruce Wayne is not around.

I just hope she gets to grow into an original character, like Ms Marvel and Ultimate Spiderman has, instead of just being "Stark with a feminine form"
Ah, but see, there's a key difference here, see.

What's the common factor between Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, (classic) Wally West, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, Stephanie Brown, Carrie Kelley, Helena Wayne, Hank Pym, Scott Lang, and Eric O'Grady?
 

DarthCoercis

New member
May 28, 2016
250
0
0
Eh, it's comic books. Things change. As long as they're telling an interesting story, who really gives a toss? I've been buying and reading comics for 30 years, and sometimes characters change. It happens. Either read the stories or stop buying the comics, those are your choices. Whinging and bitching like spoilt little brats is sad, and says quite a lot more about you as a person than it does about people behind the comics.

Tl;Dr : Sometimes things change, get over it or move on to something else.
 

happyninja42

Elite Member
Legacy
May 7, 2020
8,577
2,909
118
shrekfan246 said:
hermes said:
I used to have an issue with changing a character identity while keeping the name, until I realized they have been doing it for years.

How many people named Flash has there been? How many Robins (some of them are women, by the way)? How many Ant-men? It was almost a superpower for The Phantom back in the 40s, and that is not even going into villains territory. There is even a recent plot for who gets to be Batman once Bruce Wayne is not around.

I just hope she gets to grow into an original character, like Ms Marvel and Ultimate Spiderman has, instead of just being "Stark with a feminine form"
Ah, but see, there's a key difference here, see.

What's the common factor between Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, (classic) Wally West, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, Stephanie Brown, Carrie Kelley, Helena Wayne, Hank Pym, Scott Lang, and Eric O'Grady?
They all have 2 names? I don't know who most of those people...no actually I don't who any of those people are, so I have no clue what they have in common. Some of the names seem female, so I don't think you're going for a gender angle? *shrugs* I dunno. I know you didn't direct this question at me specifically, but I'm curious where you're going with this line of questioning. Well I take that back, I recognize Dick Grayson, so I guess maybe they've all been Robin at one point?
 

shrekfan246

Not actually a Japanese pop star
May 26, 2011
6,374
0
0
Happyninja42 said:
shrekfan246 said:
hermes said:
I used to have an issue with changing a character identity while keeping the name, until I realized they have been doing it for years.

How many people named Flash has there been? How many Robins (some of them are women, by the way)? How many Ant-men? It was almost a superpower for The Phantom back in the 40s, and that is not even going into villains territory. There is even a recent plot for who gets to be Batman once Bruce Wayne is not around.

I just hope she gets to grow into an original character, like Ms Marvel and Ultimate Spiderman has, instead of just being "Stark with a feminine form"
Ah, but see, there's a key difference here, see.

What's the common factor between Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, (classic) Wally West, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, Stephanie Brown, Carrie Kelley, Helena Wayne, Hank Pym, Scott Lang, and Eric O'Grady?
They all have 2 names? I don't know who most of those people...no actually I don't who any of those people are, so I have no clue what they have in common. Some of the names seem female, so I don't think you're going for a gender angle? *shrugs* I dunno. I know you didn't direct this question at me specifically, but I'm curious where you're going with this line of questioning. Well I take that back, I recognize Dick Grayson, so I guess maybe they've all been Robin at one point?
Well, it's specifically referencing the characters mentioned by the person I quoted, actually. The first three were all The Flash, Dick Grayson-Helena Wayne have all been Robin at some point, and the last three are at least most of the Ant-Men.

They're all white. With varying levels of white for Damian Wayne because he's also the son of Talia Al'Ghul, but he's not presented as being any sort of ethnic minority.

EDIT: I should say that I'm not being 100% serious, and I'm not saying it's racist to be skeptical of this move. Mostly poking fun at an observation.
 

hermes

New member
Mar 2, 2009
3,865
0
0
shrekfan246 said:
hermes said:
I used to have an issue with changing a character identity while keeping the name, until I realized they have been doing it for years.

How many people named Flash has there been? How many Robins (some of them are women, by the way)? How many Ant-men? It was almost a superpower for The Phantom back in the 40s, and that is not even going into villains territory. There is even a recent plot for who gets to be Batman once Bruce Wayne is not around.

I just hope she gets to grow into an original character, like Ms Marvel and Ultimate Spiderman has, instead of just being "Stark with a feminine form"
Ah, but see, there's a key difference here, see.

What's the common factor between Jay Garrick, Barry Allen, (classic) Wally West, Dick Grayson, Jason Todd, Tim Drake, Damian Wayne, Stephanie Brown, Carrie Kelley, Helena Wayne, Hank Pym, Scott Lang, and Eric O'Grady?
Yeah, I hear you. But that hasn't saved some of the changes from being criticized (look at Thor/Jane Foster). For those cases, I tend to go with Yatzhee's opinion:
I mean, I'm a fan, and I've just spent a whole review whining like a broken motor. Fans are clingy, complaining dipshits who will never, ever be grateful for any concession you make. The moment you shut out their shrill, tremulous voices, the happier you'll be for it.
(Incidentally, why not buy a Zero Punctuation t-shirt?)
 

Davroth

The shadow remains cast!
Apr 27, 2011
679
0
0
I'm sorry, but how is that a win for female representation? It's a handmedown, great. What that tells me is that Marvel doesn't seem to trust their writers to come up with a compelling, female character, so they try to use a crutch. We will know in less then 6 months how that goes, I'm sure.